Paths of Civilization

[Karugus]

Also, having no megaproject running means we can switch to Infrastructure Policy mid-turn, which will get us lots of aqueducts - even if the efficiency isn't perfect.

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All my yes.

Infrastructure mode would be awesome to leverage.

I'd suggest something like this then;

[Main] Expand EH
[Secondary] Salt Gift SHP
[Secondary] Aqueduct to a Northern Province.

As for proclaim glory- the problem is not that people think Magwyna isn't their legitimate ruler, it's that the North will kick up a fuss over her being elected. She's still the legitimate authority as far as the People in general are concerned.

 

[Powerofmind]

Ok, thoughts on what I'd do next turn, with assumptions and reasons explained:

[main] Proclaim Glory

We're explicitly warned that the Stallions don't trust our Queen. Proclaim Glory is a diplomatic way to change that, and our queen is very good at diplomacy. Also, we get stability out of it.

[secondary] Extended Project - Aqueduct, to Northshore(?)

Demonstrating that we can back up our Glorious Claims. Also makes the March much less likely to split off, because, you know, we'd stop sending them water. Should be possible as a secondary; nothing has said so far that we have to use main actions to do these, just that they'd take more than one.

Also, having no megaproject running means we can switch to Infrastructure Policy mid-turn, which will get us lots of aqueducts - even if the efficiency isn't perfect.

[secondary] Study Metal
This doesn't cost us stability, because it's not being done in full view of the people. By the same standard, it won't remove our new superstition.

That said, we really want to give our shamans time to figure out how they'd go about proving metal doesn't cause pertussis before we try to do that with the whole population watching. Much less likely to blow up in our faces that way.

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How dare you water down the condensed pure awesome that double main proclaim glory could cause!

 

[Academia Nut]

Does the "modified by Diplomacy skill" on Proclaim Glory mean that it gets extra effects with high diplomacy, or does it just modify the likelihood of getting the possible Prestige? Same question for Restoration of Order but for Admin.

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Yes, although given that its kind of inefficient when at max legitimacy its not really worth it.

 

[Karugus]

@Academia Nut, would domestic copper production as a tech up be considered enough to open up another saltern?

 

[ctulhuslp]

Don't forget that if we get a province this turn we start getting another action (possibly 2 since The Law is more likely to double a main then) every single turn. It's a pretty freaking massive benefit.

We can either make it ourselves or switch to Policy: Expansion, but we should get it either way.

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Nope. We should first make sure the existing ones don't fall away first; it is the explicit downside of our government and we should not let it fester.

Yes, although given that its kind of inefficient when at max legitimacy its not really worth it.

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Do we even have another action which boils down to 'talk to local chiefs and convince them that no, you are not neglecting them and they should trust you'? Proclaim Glory seems to be the closest one, and, given that Saltern is in the Northshore, actually doing the not-neglecting seems to be not enough.
I mean, Trails+Boats are all but mandatory, but otherwise I am kind of lost about our options with regards to tackling this kind of issue.

 

[Andres]

@Academia Nut, would a sufficient amount of Proclaim Glory while we have a queen do something to reverse the growing amount of sexism in our cilivilisation?

 

[Powerofmind]

Yes, although given that its kind of inefficient when at max legitimacy its not really worth it.

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DON'T LISTEN TO HIM! HE'S TRYING TO TURN PEOPLE AWAY FROM THE DIVINE PATH OF DOUBLE MAIN GLORY! IT'S ALWAYS WORTH IT!

 

[Abby Normal]

@Academia Nut Have we been getting really unlucky with our Greater Good rolls, or is a "Tiny chance" even worse than i expected? I just ran through the threadmarks, and counted 12 stability losses between restore order, LoO actions, mid-turn events, kicking, etc...13 if i'm remembering right and our curing of cholera was technically an unspoken kick on the study health that got its stability back by way of curing it. I was assuming 5-10% chance there, which means it isn't exactly unheard of that we haven't triggered it, but it still would be better than even odds with 5% and 13 tries, so i was curious if we've just been rolling poorly on it

 

[notgreat]

Nope. We should first make sure the existing ones don't fall away first; it is the explicit downside of our government and we should not let it fester.

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They're not going to fall away. "Beware the ambitions of the governors..." combined with "True greatness is expressed in quiet dignity and humility." is actually a really nice combo.

They're starting to get a little unhappy, they're nowhere even close to "I'm leaving goodbye". As long as we don't do something stupid like start another tax crisis we'll be fine. Just don't vote for any double-??? options. It's a problem which needs to be addressed, but it's not "next turn or we die". It's probably closer to "if you do nothing for 5 more turns then you need to start worrying". The stability loss is the payment we have due to them being not happy, but we're not even close to -4 stability; we're at 2-3 stability assuming the GS goes through!

it isn't exactly unheard of that we haven't triggered it,

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We triggered it at the very start of tax reforms, so we're at 1/13. That's well within variance for ~10%.

 

[Academia Nut]

would domestic copper production as a tech up be considered enough to open up another saltern?

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Possibly.

would a sufficient amount of Proclaim Glory while we have a queen do something to reverse the growing amount of sexism in our cilivilisation?

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Not really, and it may in fact entrench the idea of women leaders being an exception.

Have we been getting really unlucky with our Greater Good rolls, or is a "Tiny chance" even worse than i expected? I just ran through the threadmarks, and counted 12 stability losses between restore order, LoO actions, mid-turn events, kicking, etc...13 if i'm remembering right and our curing of cholera was technically an unspoken kick on the study health that got its stability back by way of curing it. I was assuming 5-10% chance there, which means it isn't exactly unheard of that we haven't triggered it, but it still would be better than even odds with 5% and 13 tries, so i was curious if we've just been rolling poorly on it

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You're been rolling relatively poorly, yes.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Ok, thoughts on what I'd do next turn, with assumptions and reasons explained:

[main] Proclaim Glory

We're explicitly warned that the Stallions don't trust our Queen. Proclaim Glory is a diplomatic way to change that, and our queen is very good at diplomacy. Also, we get stability out of it.

[secondary] Extended Project - Aqueduct, to Northshore(?)

Demonstrating that we can back up our Glorious Claims. Also makes the March much less likely to split off, because, you know, we'd stop sending them water. Should be possible as a secondary; nothing has said so far that we have to use main actions to do these, just that they'd take more than one.

Also, having no megaproject running means we can switch to Infrastructure Policy mid-turn, which will get us lots of aqueducts - even if the efficiency isn't perfect.

[secondary] Study Metal
This doesn't cost us stability, because it's not being done in full view of the people. By the same standard, it won't remove our new superstition.

That said, we really want to give our shamans time to figure out how they'd go about proving metal doesn't cause pertussis before we try to do that with the whole population watching. Much less likely to blow up in our faces that way.

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Your lack of Boats disturbs me.
I mean, they are another way to bring them closer to hit them with our culture, so we should fit it in there somehow.
OTOH, Proclaim Glory is Stability...mm. Festivals maybe? They do not fit all that well narratively and are...hm.

@Academia Nut ,
1. I presume that Boats and all actions which can fall under the Expansion/Infrastructure policies are covered by Administrative stats of the leader, right?
2. Is Enforce Law covered by Administrative or Martial stats?
3. Are Festivals covered by Administrative, Diplomatic or Mystic stat?
4. What other actions, besides Proclaim Glory, can convince people that they can trust their leader? Because the speculated feeling of neglect kind of means they are not convinced, despite Legitimacy being maxed...

 

[BlueFlamingWings]

[X] Free holy site expansion (+2 Mysticism)
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

So, going off what I said earlier, I think we don't need to get rid of the trait Weapons of the Gods but mitigate it. Basically shift from "the gods are angry because we used metal" to 'the gods are angry because we used metal without their permission" and make the "cursed" stigma into the metal being "blessed". This may later morph into a general respect for the resources of the land.

 

[Andres]

@Academia Nut, will the fact that our queen will have both Heroic Diplomacy and Heroic Administration mean the way to integrating the Stallion Tribes will become clearer?

 

[Abby Normal]

We triggered it at the very start of tax reforms, so we're at 1/13. That's well within variance for ~10%.

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I don't remember that happening...i dont imagine you have a post talking about it? Or at least which update you think it happened at, so i can look for my or veekie or zamin's stat-change post?

Not really, and it may in fact entrench the idea of women leaders being an exception.

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Hmm--can we ask questions of our soon to be queen like we can our IC advisors?
If so, then what does Magwyna think would be the best thing(s) to do to help normalize women leaders?
If not, then same question to our advisors?

 

[Academia Nut]

1. I presume that Boats and all actions which can fall under the Expansion/Infrastructure policies are covered by Administrative stats of the leader, right?
2. Is Enforce Law covered by Administrative or Martial stats?
3. Are Festivals covered by Administrative, Diplomatic or Mystic stat?
4. What other actions, besides Proclaim Glory, can convince people that they can trust their leader? Because the speculated feeling of neglect kind of means they are not convinced, despite Legitimacy being maxed...

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1.) Yes
2.) Admin or Admin+Martial, depending on how things have developed.
3.) Admin + Diplo
4.) Technically anything that raises Stability, but showing attention to those feeling neglected can have some effect

will the fact that our queen will have both Heroic Diplomacy and Heroic Administration mean the way to integrating the Stallion Tribes will become clearer?

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Possibly.

If so, then what does Magwyna think would be the best thing(s) to do to help normalize women leaders?

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She thinks about it for a bit before she says: "Have a bunch of unremarkable women leaders"

 

[Necratoid]

To be fair, the right time for a drought narratively is when it hasn't been seen since the time of legends...

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True but as you said:

I mean, that's a big time window so I'm not arguing it's around the corner. And furthermore, I don't think narrative has much to do with famine. Pretty sure that's determined almost solely by attribute modded dice rolls.

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I'm taking more political narrative here. What I meant was that narratively building the Great Dam isn't nearly as pressing so it won't be getting bonuses from matching up with current needs. it can as fail and cause major issues. The Saltern and The Garden come across to the populous as addressing current needs. Addressing the issues with the March is addressing current needs. Building notStoneHenge addresses the where the hell did this Star Plague comes from with Star Fall... and builds a scholarly center as a response. Building the Great Dam is... okay why not to The People. Its random enough to make random populous kind of blink and go okay... why now?

 

[notgreat]

I don't remember that happening...i dont imagine you have a post talking about it? Or at least which update you think it happened at, so i can look for my or veekie or zamin's stat-change post?

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Ok I just checked (Here) and I may have been mistaken- It was supposed to cost 1 stability but didn't cost anything, staying at 0. If I understood it correctly GG is supposed to replace the loss with a gain, so I'm not certain.

edit: Also apparently Festivals are really good to do with our heroic admin+diplo leader since they roll against both.

 

[ctulhuslp]

3. Are Festivals covered by Administrative, Diplomatic or Mystic stat?

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3.) Admin + Diplo

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Ooooookay. ALL ABOARD HEROIC STATS-BACKED FESTIVAL TRAIN

 

[Romv]

[X] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status)

More friends!!!

 

[pblur]

[X] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status)

More friends!!!

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And then a bad roll on admin -> game over.

Even Heroic kings can critfail.

 

[Andres]

Even Heroic kings can critfail.

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They can't, actually. Heroes means that critfails within their area of expertise do not happen. At worst, only regular failures happen.

 

[Academia Nut]

Even Heroic kings can critfail.

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Actually, they can't.

A heroic stats reduce crit fails to regular fails or bare fails, or possibly even a bare success depending on the roll in question.

 

[Andres]

 

[Abby Normal]

To be fair, the right time for a drought narratively is when it hasn't been seen since the time of legends...

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I'd been under the impression that we'd still been having droughts and floods and crop failures and etc, they just 1. haven't been super-disasters, and 2. we've got good enough farming, organization, land management, and administration to not be affected much unless we get a bunch in a row, since we keep so much food in our granaries that in a normal year we've got literally as much food as we can store without it going bad stored away in case of problems. Is that accurate, @Academia Nut ?

Ok I just checked (Here) and I may have been mistaken- It was supposed to cost 1 stability but didn't cost anything, staying at 0. If I understood it correctly GG is supposed to replace the loss with a gain, so I'm not certain.

edit: Also apparently Festivals are really good to do with our heroic admin+diplo leader since they roll against both.

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Ahh, yeah, i'd forgotten about that. That wasn't the "tiny chance to replace stab losswith stab gain", that was "narratively your trait means that the usual stab loss of mixing up the system is replaced with stab gain or loss depending on what you actually choose as the new system"...which means that we've only had 12 possible procs for GG's normal benefit, not 13, because i double-counted that stab loss as both the option and the crisis stab hit, when they were one and the same

Note: Due to the Greater Good, the stability loss has been adjusted. The people are upset and uncertain. Maintaining the status quo in all categories will upset people as they do not feel that an important issue has been adequately addressed, resulting in a total of -2 Stability loss. Certain combinations may negate the stability loss from the choice made, potentially gaining stability overall, while other options and combinations have the chance to reduce Stability further, but the first point of Stability loss will be accounted for by the overall reassessment action.

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[ctulhuslp]

I mean, if I get enough faith in people's choice of Festivals next turn, I am totally switching to the Trails.
Festivals do give us cultural unity and Stability; when backed by Heroic stats, they are unlikely to cement actually bad behaviours or, give Woman Heroic Admin+Diplo, unlikely to cement patriarchy beyond unavoidable (it's culture of physical strength, where, unlike mental strength, males do, IIRC, have an advantage).
She is the ideal time for Festivals + some actions to give stuff to the northeners + boats.