...and I would like a quote for that.
Because looking at the core values of Valleyhome, and how Blackbirds gave information to the King he used to curb corruption and shame the chiefs in the land affair where the refugees were taken advantage of, the shamed ones would be the slavers, and not the slaves.

Because Ymmri do not have slaves.
We have half exiles, and anyone abusing them is guilty of breaking the law, and would, therefore, be shamed if it were discovered and proven.

The people participating in the abuse would faux-virtuously tell themselves that what they are doing is education.
 
Sure. But the entire reason that class-based half-exile status exists is because the population of those provinces is on board that those people tend to be the biggest troublemakers. So unless the festival happens immediately after we stompified some corrupt chiefs, it won't target them.

I see the improved festivals as something our centralized shamans will use to tie our people together, not allow regional differences to tear them apart.
 
They combined in a main before.
Yes, but the law hasn't doubled a Main. I think it would double a secondary BEFORE they formed a main. That's consistent with the secondary holy site doubling into a main instead of into two secondaries.
 
[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with friendly groups (Chance of other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support
 
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AN recently said that if we ran out of econ they would either Build Econ, or New Settlement. So I can vouch for that part.
Sorry, I meant the first part. I saw that post, I was questioning the free switch.
Are you certain that The Law will double a Main created by two province actions? My interpretation was that it would add a secondary.
If [Main] actions are the only ones available then one will be doubled, but The Law prefers to double [Secondary] actions. We do not know how provinces will use this information.
 
The thing is as soon as we have our next war with any given group, and lowlanders being lowlanders that is going to happen eventually, the story will shift to make us the sorcerers who got tricked (or some variation on that theme). Once that story appears in the general consciousnesses it will eclipse the truth simply because it is more palpable.
We have never been at war with the lowlanders with the exception of the DP after their split, and i doubt that will change anytime soon. The only people who regularly attack us are the nomads and sea raider, and this act will ensure they will be the only ones for a while to do so.
If we spend long enough time at peace our actions should not be easily forgotten. And in the end the point is not to be loved forever, even if they only "remember" for 3-4 turns that will still be a boon to us. The main point is to grow our rep as healers and wise-men, so we might get offerings to heal supplicants and thus spread our influence.
 
At least not in the quote Kiba used.

And as long as the shamed people are the slavers, I would be ok with it.
...and I would like a quote for that.
Because looking at the core values of Valleyhome, and how Blackbirds gave information to the King he used to curb corruption and shame the chiefs in the land affair where the refugees were taken advantage of, the shamed ones would be the slavers, and not the slaves.

Because Ymmri do not have slaves.
We have half exiles, and anyone abusing them is guilty of breaking the law, and would, therefore, be shamed if it were discovered and proven.
Quote regarding possible negatives of festivals:
It's definitely possible, although part of the problem is that even with written law, the law is still primarily interpretation and tradition. The simple fact of the matter is that the development of legalese is in of itself a technological development, in that having a separate dialect for precise and unambiguous wording is actually super important for the development of clarity of law. So, while there are definite guidelines that set definite expectations of interpretation and hard lines that cannot be crossed without consequence, the majority of the law is still 'spirit' rather than 'letter', so it is entirely possible for festivals to further entrench bad but prosocial behaviour.

Like, its totally possible for a society to get to the point where offenders are paraded about on pillory during a festival, encouraging people to mock and assault them for their crimes. The People don't currently do that, they prefer quiet shaming for the most part, but it's something that can become part of a festival season.
As for who "offenders" are, the whole point is that chiefs are pushing "tough on crime" policies to avoid having to assign shit-duty rotations, and people like that because 1. no one wants to do shit-work and 2. the chiefs aren't half-exiling people for loitering, they're provoking them into acting out, half-exiling them with what seems to be legitimate cause, and then messing about with the parole-equivalent to ensure they don't get taken back off ofit.

Some more quotes on the subject:
Because they often aren't treated particularly fairly, all the chiefs need is to get them to lash out once when they're young adults (like that's uncommon) and then hit them harder with punishments than is entirely necessary or even recommended.
Ehhh... it depends. In some villages ending up on half-exile duty as a young adult is almost considered a right of passage in that its primarily used as a means of teaching hot headed youth some humility, with the only primary shame being if you're a half-exile well into adulthood. In other villages, being a half-exile is a semi-hereditary position as while the children of half-exiles are not supposed to be also half-exiles, they have very few political connections so if the chief needs someone to do crap work on a long term basis it's trivially easy to find 'bad apples among the trash'. However, unless they basically pick a fight with the local leadership, it is much harder to go from half-exile to full exile, as the chiefs who are the most abusive will often ignore a certain amount of misbehavior that would get people kicked out elsewhere so that they can both keep the half-exiles working in perpetuity and avoid having to distribute shit work to anyone with political pull. It's actually easier to go from half-exile to dead than to full exile in most places, as execution is used for things like murder or egregiously violent sexual assault where its much harder to sweep under the rug in small communities.

There have been a few female chiefs since Gwygoytha, and you can even think of some of the 'kings' as actually being female, but gender norms are starting to solidify and tilt the relatively small physical advantages of men into compounding social advantages. The People are still quite egalitarian in comparison to most of their neighbours, but noticeably less so than in generations past.

They tend not to know, in that the families that the higher level chiefs are drawn from tend to avoid ever being half-exiles at all via both connections and attitude ("Oh, little Ymmy was just a bit over enthusiastic, I don't think we need anything other than a slap on the wrist to solve this" and "Keep your nose clean son or you'll club your own chances at being king one day!"), and the king very rarely interacts with half-exiles at all.


It would be extraordinarily unpopular and result in about 80% of them being half-exiles again by the end of the year, if the king were even capable of recognizing the problem.

Like, the issue here is the political class using a disliked minority (criminals, or those who can be easily painted of as criminals) as a way of shielding the majority from unpleasant labour, so these policies are ultimately extremely popular where they are used, unless you happen to be someone who is targeted maliciously (and outright malice tends to be relatively rare in comparison to simply cracking down harder than necessary on already marginal populations).

At the current point of time, the People don't have the philosophy to even see any of this as a problem, and thus it would be difficult to get them to a place where reform would even be an option that could be pursued.

That's theoretically what being a half-exile is. You get shit work that is spiritually contaminating to do, but that teaches humility and through the guidance of shamans you may shed the contamination that lead you to half-exile in the first place, and any that you might have accumulated through your work. Even within the half-exiles there is a gradation, and while some are unfairly denied getting out, there are those that are assigned the less awful shit tasks for good behaviour, both for the stated reasoning of lessening the additional purification they need, and because it encourages cooperation in general for there to actually be an out from the system.

It's just, you know, sometimes the parole officer decides that he wants someone outside his immediate circle to haul literal shit than he wants to actually fairly assess your case.



you know what I love about this quest? that the thing that seems to be our hat is essentially boring logistics. We tend the land and pour effort into infrastructure megaprojects, with our most cherished victories being over hunger and disease. I've seen kingdom quests go full war, and I've seen them go full mad science, but I don't think I've ever seen them go full stewardship before.

I was just htinking about that last night. Our strongest advantage is our stable base. Tax crisis aside, i dont think we've lost econ (food) to anything random since that set of flood/drought/flood/drought that knocked out the original lowlanders, because our food production is so good. We have a remarkably stable political system for the time period (again, tax crisis aside, and eventhat wasn't super bad). We've figured out and implemented almost total vaccination of one of hte major diseases of history. We've just now stopped cholera in its tracks within a generation of us first encountering it. Through those two things, we've discovered 3 of the greatest health strategies around, in the form of (primitive, animal based) vaccination, (basic, but still 19th century level in some ways) sanitation theory, and rehydration "potions", which means that even when new diseases show up we're not likely to have major epidemics, unlike our neighbors
 
Ok, I fell asleep shortly after the update. What's the most common plan and why are we doing it?
 
I'd like a citation for the first part... I'm not sure its right.
It will generally try to upgrade a Secondary to a Main, but depending on what is happening it could upgrade a Main to a double Main. And yes, the price is paid at Main cost for Main benefit.
There you go.

Ok, I fell asleep shortly after the update. What's the most common plan and why are we doing it?
[] Megaproject Support
[] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
Basically, everyone else wants to rush a megaproject to completion in 1-2 turns, and be in a safe position to do so. You give up free actions from the provinces and any ability at all to choose what we do next turn (we must start the megaproject and we're basically out of econ slots so we need to expand) but we will get a project done ridiculously fast.
 
I'd like a citation for the first part... I'm not sure its right.
Here.
It will generally try to upgrade a Secondary to a Main, but depending on what is happening it could upgrade a Main to a double Main. And yes, the price is paid at Main cost for Main benefit.



Most of the shamans, pretty much all of the admins because their job is entirely reading, and a few of the chiefs. Beyond that it is a very random scattering. You maybe have a 5% literacy rate.

Ok, I fell asleep shortly after the update. What's the most common plan and why are we doing it?
Megaproject support
Significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
Share with even those who don't want to listen

The first two are to give us enough econ to run through a megaproject, the last one is to start a large scale culture conversion of everyone we can.
 
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There you go.


[] Megaproject Support
[] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
Basically, everyone else wants to rush a megaproject to completion in 1-2 turns, and be in a safe position to do so. You give up free actions from the provinces and any ability at all to choose what we do next turn (we must start the megaproject and we're basically out of econ slots so we need to expand) but we will get a project done ridiculously fast.
Hmmm. That additional effects will probably be a trait. Honor, obviously, but probably knowledge based.
 
Here.



Megaproject support
Significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
Share with even those who don't want to listen

The first two are to give us enough econ to run through a megaproject, the last one is to start a large scale culture conversion of everyone we can.
SWEEET!
 
f we have Megaproject Support and the provinces do new settlement to boost econ, can they do it as a main and grab a province at the same time, or would they only be able to create provinces if we're doing Expansion?

How long will the special for the Garden and Saltern mega projects last, 1 turn or 2?

Will we get any bonuses from doing The Garden and Saltern at the same time?

You would get 2 Stability, but man would that be a drain on the economy.

How's the March faring in this mess? I assume the nomadic raiders are passing them the pestilence too?

No, the northern nomads don't have cholera, its coming from the south and east.

It's the magic to be shared only about cholera, or also the metal poisons?

Just the disease.

Can we over-complete a megaproject to make it more grand or efficient?

Say we do 3 actions +kicker for gardens, and find that it'll still take another action to complete. If we do that action with our policy set to support megaprojects, would they also contribute resulting in 6/5 actions? What if we intentionally overdid it with a kicker?

Would we get a supermegaproject sized garden if we spent 8 actions over 2 turns on a 5 action project?

Ehhhhhh... depends on the project, but I'm going to say generally no.

If we double main Improve Festivals, will it cost a total of 3 econ?

That's what the action says, yes.
 
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