Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
Academia Nut said:
There are enough half-exiles that that has never come up for kings.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
How long are most half-exiles in that state? if i remember right, you said that one of our first carrion eaters was a half-exile as a young man, so clearly its not (always) permanent, but is it rare to go from half-exile to a prestigious job like that? How often do they end up full-exiled, even?

Also, as long as i'm asking questions about our culture, have we had a female ruler since we made the switch to provincial government? I remember a few female chiefs mentioned after gwygoytha, but i dont think we've had any mention of a Queen or even a female province chief or anything...are we resolidifying gender norms as time goes on, or is that a coincidence/you not mentioning every ruler?
 
Academia Nut said:
With the path you used, Expand Shrines for every province.

The only way you could have possibly had enough time for this is if you suppressed the Young Stallions at just about every opportunity, which due to spawning a hero unit early was considerably more dangerous than initially conceptualised, but them's the breaks sometimes. Quite honestly, the crisis basically required everything to go perfect for you to have a chance of successfully resolving it with the changes made.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Damn, I even read that the crisis was theoretically impossible to complete.
 
I voted for the guy for different reason, but would have been nice.

There is also possibility of going wrong. So it's not exactly a comforting gamble.

Then again suppression of young stallions for their political views doesn't sit well with me.
 
Academia Nut said:
With the path you used, Expand Shrines for every province.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Wow, that was one of my initial theories on what we needed.
If we had win the coin flip on that last stability roll we would've been just 1 econ off from doing it, too. Those province surveys...

Edit: unless a [main] still counts as only one, then it wouldn't work.

And yeah, I find it funny that my analysis was right and grabbing the heroic administrator had basically the same chance at finishing the crisis successfully as we did on our own, though with the anti-hereditary group I can see why we avoided it.
 
Last edited:
Powerofmind said:
Damn, I even read that the crisis was theoretically impossible to complete.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well, it was possible, just unlikely with the way we did it. But it's obvious now that we should have put our admin hero in charge at the end, as he had a good chance of solving it.
notgreat said:
Wow, that was one of my initial theories on what we needed.
If we had win the coin flip on that last stability roll we would've been just 1 econ off from doing it, too. Those province surveys...

And yeah, I find it funny that my analysis was right and grabbing the heroic administrator had basically the same chance at finishing the crisis successfully as we did on our own, though with the anti-hereditary group I can see why we avoided it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ugh, yeah. If there weren't so many people frothing at the mouth at the idea of us going hereditary, we could have had a good chance of pulling this off.
 
Last edited:
Citino said:
Well, it was possible, just unlikely with the way we did it. But it's obvious now that we should have put our admin hero in charge at the end, as he had a good chance of solving it.

Ugh, yeah. If there weren't so many people frothing at the mouth at the idea of us going hereditary, we could have had a good chance of pulling this off.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

25% is an existing chance, but not a particularly good one.
 
notgreat said:
The main worry with a Dam is that if it goes wrong, it can go very wrong.
Most of our other megaprojects have been gradual things where if any one part completely fails, it doesn't majorly affect everything else. With a dam, there's much less room for mistakes.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oh I realize that that things could go wrong, that being a reason I stated the innovations that I felt synergized between the techs of each option. Also, the reason I kept going on and on about the mega-kilns being a likely thing in my mind. The best way to build a dam is to build it in a dry spot (water diversion channels or literally build it off to the size and then alter the river into it), then introduce the water to the premade reservoir and dam. Digging the dam also manages to generate the fill to clog up the old river bed.

That said random number generator will be random and generate numbers randomly.
2xMachina said:
Do you honestly need a Main Metal?
Why isn't Secondary Metal sufficient?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It goes like this:

Low and Behold! Magic rocks fell from the stars.... in the land of way the hell over there!
The People did proclaim... YOINK!
So now The People have magic sky rocks and almost everyone agrees they are a shiny and shinies are to be studied carefully in their shining shininess.
A magic sky rock was opened and had metal in it.
And so The People did proclaim... 'Well we are studying these sky rocks with metal bits... and we have those other rocks of metal.'
'So we shall study the magic metal sky rocks! The metal ground rocks shall be studied at the same time'.
'But those have poison metal in them!'
'So we shall study them and our health at the same time to try and figure out a way around that!'
And The People proclaimed 'Well they are indeed shiny!'
And from on high Crow did proclaim 'Shiny! Shiny are the rocks! Study them! For! They! Are! Shiny!'

Dissenting voices try and point out Stability was shiny as well... let us set things on fire... Fire is shiny!
Others pointed out the neighbors are seemingly incapable of convincing their populous that they should stay in their lands.
But the call of shiny is strong with the crow worshipers.
 
Necratoid said:
Oh I realize that that things could go wrong, that being a reason I stated the innovations that I felt synergized between the techs of each option. Also, the reason I kept going on and on about the mega-kilns being a likely thing in my mind. The best way to build a dam is to build it in a dry spot (water diversion channels or literally build it off to the size and then alter the river into it), then introduce the water to the premade reservoir and dam. Digging the dam also manages to generate the fill to clog up the old river bed.

That said random number generator will be random and generate numbers randomly.

It goes like this:

Low and Behold! Magic rocks fell from the stars.... in the land of way the hell over there!
The People did proclaim... YOINK!
So now The People have magic sky rocks and almost everyone agrees they are a shiny and shinies are to be studied carefully in their shining shininess.
A magic sky rock was opened and had metal in it.
And so The People did proclaim... 'Well we are studying these sky rocks with metal bits... and we have those other rocks of metal.'
'So we shall study the magic metal sky rocks! The metal ground rocks shall be studied at the same time'.
'But those have poison metal in them!'
'So we shall study them and our health at the same time to try and figure out a way around that!'
And The People proclaimed 'Well they are indeed shiny!'
And from on high Crow did proclaim 'Shiny! Shiny are the rocks! Study them! For! They! Are! Shiny!'

Dissenting voices try and point out Stability was shiny as well... let us set things on fire... Fire is shiny!
Others pointed out the neighbors are seemingly incapable of convincing their populous that they should stay in their lands.
But the call of shiny is strong with the crow worshipers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We're all a bunch a Magpies under the cunning Crow! :rofl:

SQUUUUUUAK!
 
Abby Normal said:
How long are most half-exiles in that state? if i remember right, you said that one of our first carrion eaters was a half-exile as a young man, so clearly its not (always) permanent, but is it rare to go from half-exile to a prestigious job like that? How often do they end up full-exiled, even?

Also, as long as i'm asking questions about our culture, have we had a female ruler since we made the switch to provincial government? I remember a few female chiefs mentioned after gwygoytha, but i dont think we've had any mention of a Queen or even a female province chief or anything...are we resolidifying gender norms as time goes on, or is that a coincidence/you not mentioning every ruler?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ehhh... it depends. In some villages ending up on half-exile duty as a young adult is almost considered a right of passage in that its primarily used as a means of teaching hot headed youth some humility, with the only primary shame being if you're a half-exile well into adulthood. In other villages, being a half-exile is a semi-hereditary position as while the children of half-exiles are not supposed to be also half-exiles, they have very few political connections so if the chief needs someone to do crap work on a long term basis it's trivially easy to find 'bad apples among the trash'. However, unless they basically pick a fight with the local leadership, it is much harder to go from half-exile to full exile, as the chiefs who are the most abusive will often ignore a certain amount of misbehavior that would get people kicked out elsewhere so that they can both keep the half-exiles working in perpetuity and avoid having to distribute shit work to anyone with political pull. It's actually easier to go from half-exile to dead than to full exile in most places, as execution is used for things like murder or egregiously violent sexual assault where its much harder to sweep under the rug in small communities.

There have been a few female chiefs since Gwygoytha, and you can even think of some of the 'kings' as actually being female, but gender norms are starting to solidify and tilt the relatively small physical advantages of men into compounding social advantages. The People are still quite egalitarian in comparison to most of their neighbours, but noticeably less so than in generations past.
 
VoidZero said:
Hey! I'm not European feudal peasant. I'm Chinese small landowner intellectual!

As long as the centralized government stay centralized with iron grip, then those pesky chiefs can't break into local lords like DP/HK tributary.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
But only european warlords are feudalists. We call other feudalists warlords :p
 
Here's my very rough plan for next turn assuming we switch to Expansion policy this mid-turn.
[Main] something stability
[Secondary] study stars
[Secondary] something that spends mysticism? Alternatively, Enforce Law.

Stability is obvious, and the inefficiency will be gone so we really do want to get it.

Study Stars is incredibly good (Baby Boom was ridiculous), so I want to keep the chain going while our provinces expand. We'll have plenty of available Mysticism, especially since we'll get some from the provinces as well, so spending it seems like a reasonable choice. Maybe some Carrion Eaters or Blackbirds? We could also study metal more if we somehow didn't get the mine upgrade. Or we could immediately recover our centralization and try getting that stability bonus.

Also, any ideas on how we could improve our gender balance?
 
Last edited:
No7sHere said:
I would really like to figure out some way of making sure our gender norms do not tip to far in that direction.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not too difficult, just put more resources for shaman/advisor/merchant/artisan generation.

Like holy sites, metal production, art sponsor, and more provinces.

Those are jobs with less physical demands and as long as we try to keep the political pull limited, those ladies with drive and skill will rise to the top.
 
Academia Nut said:
Ehhh... it depends. In some villages ending up on half-exile duty as a young adult is almost considered a right of passage in that its primarily used as a means of teaching hot headed youth some humility, with the only primary shame being if you're a half-exile well into adulthood. In other villages, being a half-exile is a semi-hereditary position as while the children of half-exiles are not supposed to be also half-exiles, they have very few political connections so if the chief needs someone to do crap work on a long term basis it's trivially easy to find 'bad apples among the trash'. However, unless they basically pick a fight with the local leadership, it is much harder to go from half-exile to full exile, as the chiefs who are the most abusive will often ignore a certain amount of misbehavior that would get people kicked out elsewhere so that they can both keep the half-exiles working in perpetuity and avoid having to distribute shit work to anyone with political pull. It's actually easier to go from half-exile to dead than to full exile in most places, as execution is used for things like murder or egregiously violent sexual assault where its much harder to sweep under the rug in small communities.

There have been a few female chiefs since Gwygoytha, and you can even think of some of the 'kings' as actually being female, but gender norms are starting to solidify and tilt the relatively small physical advantages of men into compounding social advantages. The People are still quite egalitarian in comparison to most of their neighbours, but noticeably less so than in generations past.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hmm, thats both better and worse than i'd expected on the half exiles. Would Kings from the first type of village even be aware of the latter type? That is, are the Kings who would object to the "semi-hereditary half-exile" situation aware of that situation but unable/unwilling to rock the boat and stop it, or do they just not know due to how much they have to deal with and how little they see individual settlement issues?

And damn, i was hoping my guess on how gender norms were evolving was wrong :/ I'm not sure there's even really anything we can do to affect that but hope for a female hero unit spawn...
 
Academia Nut said:
Ehhh... it depends. In some villages ending up on half-exile duty as a young adult is almost considered a right of passage in that its primarily used as a means of teaching hot headed youth some humility, with the only primary shame being if you're a half-exile well into adulthood. In other villages, being a half-exile is a semi-hereditary position as while the children of half-exiles are not supposed to be also half-exiles, they have very few political connections so if the chief needs someone to do crap work on a long term basis it's trivially easy to find 'bad apples among the trash'. However, unless they basically pick a fight with the local leadership, it is much harder to go from half-exile to full exile, as the chiefs who are the most abusive will often ignore a certain amount of misbehavior that would get people kicked out elsewhere so that they can both keep the half-exiles working in perpetuity and avoid having to distribute shit work to anyone with political pull. It's actually easier to go from half-exile to dead than to full exile in most places, as execution is used for things like murder or egregiously violent sexual assault where its much harder to sweep under the rug in small communities.

There have been a few female chiefs since Gwygoytha, and you can even think of some of the 'kings' as actually being female, but gender norms are starting to solidify and tilt the relatively small physical advantages of men into compounding social advantages. The People are still quite egalitarian in comparison to most of their neighbours, but noticeably less so than in generations past.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Do we have a lot of female shamans @Academia Nut, or is it a sort of equal spread?
 
Academia Nut said:
Ehhh... it depends. In some villages ending up on half-exile duty as a young adult is almost considered a right of passage in that its primarily used as a means of teaching hot headed youth some humility, with the only primary shame being if you're a half-exile well into adulthood. In other villages, being a half-exile is a semi-hereditary position as while the children of half-exiles are not supposed to be also half-exiles, they have very few political connections so if the chief needs someone to do crap work on a long term basis it's trivially easy to find 'bad apples among the trash'. However, unless they basically pick a fight with the local leadership, it is much harder to go from half-exile to full exile, as the chiefs who are the most abusive will often ignore a certain amount of misbehavior that would get people kicked out elsewhere so that they can both keep the half-exiles working in perpetuity and avoid having to distribute shit work to anyone with political pull. It's actually easier to go from half-exile to dead than to full exile in most places, as execution is used for things like murder or egregiously violent sexual assault where its much harder to sweep under the rug in small communities.

There have been a few female chiefs since Gwygoytha, and you can even think of some of the 'kings' as actually being female, but gender norms are starting to solidify and tilt the relatively small physical advantages of men into compounding social advantages. The People are still quite egalitarian in comparison to most of their neighbours, but noticeably less so than in generations past.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So basically, we don't have caste slaves, but we totally have caste slaves, and we don't have gender bias, but we totally have gender bias?
 
No7sHere said:
I would really like to figure out some way of making sure our gender norms do not tip to far in that direction.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Best advice: keep warrior->chief as a non-dominant succession. Warriors will basically all be men (due to a combination of fitness and disposability.)

In the end some amount of differential is probably inevitable; women average significantly higher in agreeableness, which is a negative personality trait for becoming chief.

Edit: Though, to be fair, the gender personality differences are the largest in progressive western countries with weak gender norms. So conceivably our rising gender norms are minimizing average personality differences. :D
 
Last edited:
Powerofmind said:
So basically, we don't have caste slaves, but we totally have caste slaves, and we don't have gender bias, but we totally have gender bias?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes and Yes. :p

Just like racism and gender bias are eradicated in corporation and school according to some people.

People like things they can look down on for they mental balance. Sadly.
 
Most civilizations discovered advanced mathematics as they studied the stars and seasons in the hopes of deducing their fates (or at least their weather). Some developed them to assist in difficult navigation. A few even came to them in pursuit of cryptography.

Only the Ymmiri are known to have developed calculus before the spoked wheel to assist in calculating VAT border adjustments.
 
Last edited:
tryrar said:
i actually have a question: are we producing charcoal at all? And if so how large a volume, relatively speaking?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not intentionally, no, but it is made during black soil production.

Abby Normal said:
Hmm, thats both better and worse than i'd expected on the half exiles. Would Kings from the first type of village even be aware of the latter type? That is, are the Kings who would object to the "semi-hereditary half-exile" situation aware of that situation but unable/unwilling to rock the boat and stop it, or do they just not know due to how much they have to deal with and how little they see individual settlement issues?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

They tend not to know, in that the families that the higher level chiefs are drawn from tend to avoid ever being half-exiles at all via both connections and attitude ("Oh, little Ymmy was just a bit over enthusiastic, I don't think we need anything other than a slap on the wrist to solve this" and "Keep your nose clean son or you'll club your own chances at being king one day!"), and the king very rarely interacts with half-exiles at all.

BungieONI said:
Do we have a lot of female shamans @Academia Nut, or is it a sort of equal spread?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

There may actually be a slight bias towards female shamans, but its generally about equal, and shamans and knowledgeable elders are the most egalitarian parts of the society.

Powerofmind said:
So basically, we don't have caste slaves, but we totally have caste slaves, and we don't have gender bias, but we totally have gender bias?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Ayup.

Admittedly, that's still pretty damn good in comparison, but expect these things to gel even further as the game goes on without painful intervention.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top