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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Noumero said:
Off the top of my head, we'd need chakra for:
  • Earthshaping and runic infusions.
    • Ideally 20 RERs (6000 CP and 1000 to infuse) and 20 misc runes (1000 CP) 8000 total
    • Note, the total number of RER 2.0 is limited to Tsunade clones.
  • Boss Summons of Snakes, Slugs, Toads, and Dogs.
    • For the maximum estimate, assume Kurenai/Aika/Neji/Ruri would be able to summon bosses as well.
    • Assume 600 per Boss Summon (1800 for Noburi) so another 6000 total
  • Rank-and-file summons.
    • Probably 1000-2000 per Summoner, 4500 for Noburi
    • Total of 15000 CP
  • The Sannin, Mari, and Hazou mass-casting SC.
    • Relatively cheap with Hazou's expanded reserves. Probably takes about 750 CP per person, 3000 total
  • Refilling the SCs
    • 900 per Oro/Tsunade SC, assume 20 of those, 36000
    • 600 per Mari SC, 20 total, 12000
    • 100 on average for a Hazou SC, there are like 40 of them, 4000 CP
  • Total is 84000 CP, we can lower this by using fewer runes, using fewer SCs, refilling the SCs less,
  • We can use more by using SC and refilling other ejounin (Kurenai, Ruri etc.)
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This is roughly correct. See bold for my calculations. I get 84000 chakra used before we start running out of places to put it.
Noumero said:
... Actually, are you sure 50k CP is enough? Suppose the Sannin + Mari have SC 40, CR 50, Resolve 50 (Mari probably has less CR and more Resolve, but whatever). Each can intake ~40 SC hours per day. Orochimaru said not to overdo it with clones, so let's assume they and Mari only summon 20 SC each. That's 3*(20*500 + 150 + 25*20) = ~32k already. ... Okay that's clearly too much, bump it down to 10 clones per caster, for 17k
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No, we can probably use up to 100k if we can. Just by making and refilling more SCs
Noumero said:
Runes... Do we know how much chakra infusing our runes costs? The PS rules say it's decided on an ad-hoc basis for each rune, but Known Seals & Runes document doesn't seem to list chakra costs, and I don't see that information in runic research logs either. Is there a WoG buried somewhere in the thread or on Discord about it?
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50 CP per rune to infuse -- I think they considered varying this more, but decided against it. Although I suspect doing Jiriaya tier equivalent work (Hazou tier) might require more substantial infusions.

300 to shape a rune (timeladdered up)
Noumero said:
Then there's ~600*6 + 5000 = 8600 for all the S-rank summons... Wait. Can we not decrease the cost of Noburi's summons by having his SC summon them? I think I vaguely recall a ruling that Snowflake could summon if Kei gave her her blood...
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SC's can't Summon, an intrinsic part of casting the justu is making yourself bleed. So they can't do it. You can't use Prime's blood and you need a fresh wound each cast.
 
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FaintlySorcerous said:
It's now 'get her approval before sharing that', which seems explicit.
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The whole conversation is getting her approval. The part that @faflec and I want explicit is Hazō acknowledging that it would really suck to reveal this extremely potent capability of hers, especially in front of Orochimaru. Hazō has historically been very bad at this, and Mari has historically cared a lot about keep her aces hidden.

I'd really like for there to be an explicit acknowledgement that revealing it would suck.

EDIT: Basically I felt like "getting her approval" is at most acknowledgment she cares about it versus "acknowledging it sucks" is showing that we've grown on the OPSEC front and actually understand where she's coming from.
 
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Chakra Considerations for the Riftwar
  • Earthshaping and runic infusions.
    • Ideally 10 RERs (3000 CP and 500 to infuse) and ~30 misc runes (1500 CP) 5000 total
    • Note, the total number of RER 2.0 is limited to Tsunade clones.
  • Boss Summons of Snakes, Slugs, Toads, and Dogs.
    • For the maximum estimate, assume Kurenai/Aika/Neji/Ruri would be able to summon bosses as well.
    • Assume 600 per Boss Summon (1800 for Noburi) so another 6000 total
  • Rank-and-file summons.
    • Probably 1000-2000 per Summoner, 4500 for Noburi
    • Total of 15000 CP
  • The Sannin, Mari, and Hazou mass-casting SC.
    • Relatively cheap with Hazou's expanded reserves. Probably takes about 750 CP per person, 3000 total
  • Refilling the SCs
    • 900 per Oro/Tsunade SC, assume 20 of those, 36000
    • 600 per Mari SC, 20 total, 12000
    • 100 on average for a Hazou SC, there are like 40 of them, 4000 CP
  • Total is 81000 CP, we can lower this by using fewer runes, using fewer SCs, refilling the SCs less,
  • We can use more by using SC and refilling other ejounin (Kurenai, Ruri etc.)
 
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Noumero said:
Runes... Do we know how much chakra infusing our runes costs? The PS rules say it's decided on an ad-hoc basis for each rune, but Known Seals & Runes document doesn't seem to list chakra costs, and I don't see that information in runic research logs either. Is there a WoG buried somewhere in the thread or on Discord about it?
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As mentioned, it's 50 chakra by default and we've yet to encounter any counterexamples. Also, when Prime is shaping a rune the QMs waive the infusion cost, citing natural regen over the hours of shaping. Since parallelization is the name of the game for this operation, though, this only saves us 50 chakra overall.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Chakra Considerations for the Riftwar
  • Earthshaping and runic infusions.
    • Ideally 20 RERs (6000 CP and 1000 to infuse) and 20 misc runes (1000 CP) 8000 total
    • Note, the total number of RER 2.0 is limited to Tsunade clones.
  • Boss Summons of Snakes, Slugs, Toads, and Dogs.
    • For the maximum estimate, assume Kurenai/Aika/Neji/Ruri would be able to summon bosses as well.
    • Assume 600 per Boss Summon (1800 for Noburi) so another 6000 total
  • Rank-and-file summons.
    • Probably 1000-2000 per Summoner, 4500 for Noburi
    • Total of 15000 CP
  • The Sannin, Mari, and Hazou mass-casting SC.
    • Relatively cheap with Hazou's expanded reserves. Probably takes about 750 CP per person, 3000 total
  • Refilling the SCs
    • 900 per Oro/Tsunade SC, assume 20 of those, 36000
    • 600 per Mari SC, 20 total, 12000
    • 100 on average for a Hazou SC, there are like 40 of them, 4000 CP
  • Total is 84000 CP, we can lower this by using fewer runes, using fewer SCs, refilling the SCs less,
  • We can use more by using SC and refilling other ejounin (Kurenai, Ruri etc.)
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Working through this I think it makes sense to set priority tiers in terms of chakra. I'll use the traditional S, A, B, ... rankings here

S) Boss Summons, Tsunade Clones (first 10), RERs (first 3), Utility Runes
A) EJounin Summons, Orochimaru Clones (first 10), Tsunade Clones (second 10) RERs (4-10)
B) Orochimaru Clones (second 10) Jounin Summons, Mari Clones, Ruri(?) Clones
C) Yuno Clones, Neji Clones, other jounin clones
D) ...
E) ...
F) Hazou Clones (combatants)
 
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Sir Stompy said:
Working through this I think it makes sense to set priority tiers in terms of chakra. I'll use the traditional S, A, B, ... rankings here

S) Boss Summons, Tsunade Clones (first 10), RERs (first 3), Utility Runes
A) EJounin Summons, Orochimaru Clones (first 10), Tsunade Clones (second 10) RERs (4-9)
B) Orochimaru Clones (second 10) Jounin Summons, RERs (10-20), Mari Clones, Ruri(?) Clones
C) Yuno Clones, Neji Clones, other jounin clones
D) ...
E) ...
F) Hazou Clones (combatants)
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Hazou Clones (noncombatants) are at S, yeah?
 
I am torn.

On the one hand, I agree that we need Superchillers as an ace up our sleeve.

On the other hand, we just got a bioseal from Orochimaru so our team is going to be wary of our motivations: they do not know if Hazou has been subverted by Orochimaru and they will be wary of all of our actions and suggestions post-surgery.

Raiding a minor village and/or engaging in WMD research will most likely make them freak out and possibly act against us. We simply do not have time for that so I am glad we are discussing such matters instead of just declaring that we will do so.

As for a chakra source, why not float the Wakahisa clan as an option? We could get our team's feedback on whether they would be viable especially given the amount of chakra we will need. We learned from Snuncle that they are reported to be under Akatsuki supervision so they will (presumably) have some motivation to work with us beyond a purely transactional offer (family bonds notwithstanding). Furthermore, Akatsuki's 6 S-rank members are most likely distributed around the Rift or in Leaf meaning the Wakahisa would be relatively unguarded as the best source of large amounts of chakra we could source on relatively short notice.

Also, both plans need a line where Hazou reads the post-surgery instructions from Orochimaru, gets second opinions from Noburi, and then follows those instructions under Noburi's directions. If any action in the plan would contradict what the scroll says Hazou should not do it so he does not risk messy complications at such a crucial time. It would be a terrible waste to go through all of that surgery just to have the coils explode on us (or worse cuz bioseals) due to our negligence.

Hmmm... if we DO opt to do Superchiller research we should find an active volcano to test above as we would be within throwing distance of a caldera to help calm Kei's concerns about our behavior and any disastrous effects of testing the rune could be written off by distant innocent bystanders as the volcano erupting as the most plausible explanation. If Unchained Superchillers are capable of shutting down an actual volcano that would be very useful information to obtain (the hivemind can extrapolate energy yields (or I guess 'changes' because it cools things?) based on how large the volcano was, how much lava was affected and for how long, how far away the lava flows were affected, etc.):

Kei: "Cast it into the fire!"
Hazou: *infuses Superchiller*
Kei: "Destroy it!"
Hazou: "Bet"
several hours and at least one ruinously altered tectonic plate later
Kei: *facepalming* "Hazou... I meant destroy the rune not the volcano itself..."
Hazou, the Lord of the Runes: "Well, I think we learned a valuable lesson today about grammar AND runes, don't you?"
Kei: "Gonna need a new, bigger caldera"
 
@Sir Stompy

Dictator4Hire said:
We learned from Snuncle that they are reported to be under Akatsuki supervision so they will (presumably) have some motivation to work with us beyond a purely transactional offer (family bonds notwithstanding). Furthermore, Akatsuki's 6 S-rank members are most likely distributed around the Rift or in Leaf meaning the Wakahisa would be relatively unguarded as the best source of large amounts of chakra we could source on relatively short notice.
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What was not clear about the above text? Just quoting the update isn't very constructive when these sentences were meant to explain why we might justify the risk of approaching the Wakahisa.
 
I mean, on one hand, yes, Akatsuki are supposed to have "established control over chakra redistribution bloodlines". On the other hand, how does that actually look like? We expect at most two Akatsuki outside O'Uzu, and that they'd be in Leaf. What's actually stopping us from dropping by Mist and having the Wakahisa Clan join us? They presumably don't have a whole third loyal Summoner sitting there to instantly convey the information.

... I guess they can have a couple elite jounin sitting there, with some movement jutsu and up-to-date orders to run at max speed to O'Uzu and Leaf to warn both Akatsuki groups of what's happening if the Wakahisa Clan does anything weird? That'd probably let the Akatsuki have advance warning, yes.
 
Noumero said:
... I guess they can have a couple elite jounin sitting there, with some movement jutsu and up-to-date orders to run at max speed to O'Uzu and Leaf to warn both Akatsuki groups of what's happening if the Wakahisa Clan does anything weird? That'd probably let the Akatsuki have advance warning, yes.
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It becomes a matter of timing (how soon Akatsuki finds out and responds) and logistics (how fast we can secure the chakra (negotiations need to be quick) and then position ourselves to use it where we need it (at least the clan of barrel-people would be easier than scores of unconscious people in nets)), provided that our team+Orochimaru can overcome or subvert any defenses Akatsuki has put in place. Kei was built for this kind of calculating and we don't lose anything by running it by her and the rest of the team.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
It becomes a matter of timing (how soon Akatsuki finds out and responds) and logistics (how fast we can secure the chakra (negotiations need to be quick) and then position ourselves to use it where we need it (at least the clan of barrel-people would be easier than scores of unconscious people in nets)), provided that our team+Orochimaru can overcome or subvert any defenses Akatsuki has put in place. Kei was built for this kind of calculating and we don't lose anything by running it by her and the rest of the team.
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Seems reasonable, incorporated. Plan's now in the <500 word-count tier.
Noumero said:
  • Use the Wakahisa Clan. It can't be guarded by Akatsuki S-rankers, so extracting them only risks the Akatsuki getting forewarning.
    • Could their spies inform them faster than we'd reach O'uzu?
    • Could we (with Tsunade/Leaf Summoners) sell the Mizukage/AMI on this? Kei, would the Mori back us?
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The easiest way to "establish control" is to have collateral.
They'll have hostages and leverage on the Wakahisa clan so that the Wakahisa don't even want to rebel against them. And they'll probably have multiple agents embedded in there with a decent means of communication (with "agents" being terrified genin or chunin, possibly mind controlled if Itachi really can do that).
 
Dictator4Hire said:
Put a line in like
  • Follow Oro's post-surgery instructions under Noburi's supervision
and I'll vote for your plan.
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Done.

T_of_A said:
They'll have hostages and leverage on the Wakahisa clan
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Bah. So we'll threaten to massacre the whole clan, then. IIRC Mist has one essie, we'd have 2-3 not counting Boss Summons and runes.

And they'll probably have multiple agents embedded in there with a decent means of communication (with "agents" being terrified genin or chunin, possibly mind controlled if Itachi really can do that).
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"Decent means of communication" such as...? The Chakra Diffusion Problem precludes seals for long-range communication, and the Akatsuki only have two Summoners, none of whom would be at Mist. I don't think it's likely that they have anything better than "an elite jounin messenger who manually runs to O'uzu".
 
[X] Action Plan: Up to 100% More Atrocities Than the Competitors!

Noumero said:
Bah. So we'll threaten to massacre the whole clan, then. IIRC Mist has one essie, we'd have 2-3 not counting Boss Summons and runes.
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I seriously doubt Noburi would be okay with massacring his birth family.

As for Boss Summons... Kagome is always bemoaning his own lack of purpose since Hazou has eclipsed him as a sealmaster so we should encourage Kagome to branch out more into Summoning. He should have hardly any issues finding contractees considering his vital role in stopping the Dragons and it could be a good source of new, not-sadness-based character interactions for our esteemed QMs to write. The Arachnid clan incorporates all sorts of bug people and I am sure Kagome bumbling his way through social interactions with bugs who consider him to be their savior (as well as one of their queen's consorts) would be entertaining for all of us.

After this vote is over we should brainstorm possible summons for him to reduce spoon-drain on the QMs. Spider-clan techniques could easily be ripped shamelessly from other media (Kagome with techniques for web-slinging and -swinging come to mind). Trapdoor spiders in particular would be a good starting point as they could value defense just as much as Kagome does. Little baby Ballooning Spiders could be cute too.
 
@FaintlySorcerous , could you include something like:
  • Follow Oro's post-surgery instructions under Noburi's supervision.
As Noumero has recently done, please? (I have no strong preferences between the leading plans, except that I'd really like us not to cause a biosealing failure because we didn't bother to read the instructions.)
 
[x] Action Plan: Up to 100% More Atrocities Than the Competitors!

It is in the QM's hands now. Also, more seriously, this is a very iffy confrontation and lets not leave any value on the table.
 
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Sorry about still ignoring your very valid point regarding the interaction between logistics and Tsunade SC hours, by the way, @Kyreneryk. But there are ways to make this work, I think. Most obviously: we're likely not using the max level of Tsunade clones for the assault, only e. g. 10 instead of 40, so she'd still have 30 hours "free" to be spent on transporting captives.
Dictator4Hire said:
I seriously doubt Noburi would be okay with massacring his birth family.
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That's okay, Oro would be. :)

More generally, that was perhaps an overly glib way to state that whatever threats the Akatsuki might've made against the Wakahisa, we can likely outdo them or convince them that inaction would be a greater threat.
As for Boss Summons... Kagome is always bemoaning his own lack of purpose since Hazou has eclipsed him as a sealmaster so we should encourage Kagome to branch out more into Summoning. He should have hardly any issues finding contractees considering his vital role in stopping the Dragons and it could be a good source of new, not-sadness-based character interactions for our esteemed QMs to write. The Arachnid clan incorporates all sorts of bug people and I am sure Kagome bumbling his way through social interactions with bugs who consider him to be their savior (as well as one of their queen's consorts) would be entertaining for all of us.
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Yeah, I'd really hoped his interactions with the Arachnids would be a bigger part of the narrative than they've been so far.
 
Noumero said:
Sorry about still ignoring your very valid point regarding the interaction between logistics and Tsunade SC hours, by the way, @Kyreneryk. But there are ways to make this work, I think. Most obviously: we're likely not using the max level of Tsunade clones for the assault, only e. g. 10 instead of 40, so she'd still have 30 hours "free" to be spent on transporting captives.
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I suppose that works. I wouldn't want to push too close to the limit, though, in case e.g. one of her clones gets genjutsu'd by Itachi, takes a mental Severe, that copies back to Tsunade Prime when the clone pops, and then Tsunade's effective Resolve is suddenly >10 points lower when all the other clones popping. That's probably manageable if she's clear on SC hours when she starts up, less manageable if she's pushing the limit.
 
Kyreneryk said:
I suppose that works. I wouldn't want to push too close to the limit, though, in case e.g. one of her clones gets genjutsu'd by Itachi, takes a mental Severe, that copies back to Tsunade Prime when the clone pops, and then Tsunade's effective Resolve is suddenly >10 points lower when all the other clones popping. That's probably manageable if she's clear on SC hours when she starts up, less manageable if she's pushing the limit.
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We'd need to properly work out the logistics of this, how long it'd take to go from the raided village to O'uzu, when it'd be optimal for Tsunade to "refresh" her clones mid-journey to deal with part of the backlash, how long we'd be setting up at O'uzu, whether it's possible for Orochimaru/Mari clones to pick up the slack to let Tsunade rest, etc.
 
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