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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Dictator4Hire said:
Thread quotes for area and duration (underlines added):
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The quotes you've provided are for the storm created by Elemental Mastery, the ninjutsu. Superchillers, the runes, have different parameters. EJ has since reminded me that Hazou actually autonomously decided to research an "unchained" version rather than the 10-minute duration, 1 Zone AOE version we specified; this means that they probably would have long enough duration for our purposes (possibly much too long), but also might be vastly more powerful than the storm created by Elemental Mastery due to having a bigger AOE.
eaglejarl said:
IMPORTANT NOTE: The current spec for the Superchiller rune calls for an AOE of 1 zone and a duration of 10 minutes. This is both smaller and shorter than any rune Hazō has ever researched. He is aware that he is on a tight timeline with Akatsuki and Orochimaru's ultimatum. Therefore, he researches a version of Superchiller with the size and duration set to "whatever seems easiest", like he did with the Unchained Time Runes. He expects that the greater difficulty and complexity of the harshly constrained version from the spec would make it much slower to research, probably 2x longer or more.

If you vote in another research plan on Superchillers, you may include a line to the effect of:
  • Transfer Unchained Superchiller progress to Superchiller.

This will let Hazō transfer 50% of the progress he made on the Unchained Superchiller to the regular Superchiller.
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Dictator4Hire said:
That's the point: an utterly (or nearly cuz S-rankers can be bullshit) impassable barrier even for S-rankers when stealth is no longer an option. These EM explosions would cover our rear once our Leaf allies arrive so we cut off Akatsuki reinforcements from reaching the Rift site. After our rear is secure we can mop up the S-rankers still inside of the EM perimeter and get to work on the Rift itself. Our team could then regroup and begin digging in to prepare to repel the delayed Akatsuki counterattack.
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... Our current predictions have four of the six Akatsuki members on-site at the Rift, together with a large number of jounin and a probably-very-trapped fortress. "Mop up" does not seem like the correct word.

Also, what Akatsuki reinforcements? Even if Itachi/Kisame immediately reverse-summoned to contact the other pair, if we win we could abscond with the Rift before any reinforcements could reasonably arrive. I suppose they could be warned when we contact Leaf - but then they might well show up at the same time we do, or too quickly for us to set up this hypothetical barrier.

CitizenTen said:
Downside: irrelevant when dead.

You either think we should risk it all to beat Akasuki or you don't. 🤷‍♂️ If you're so concerned about "burning trust permanently" that it blots out all other considerations, we (Hazo) shouldn't even risk getting the bioseal at all. Like, did you even read the last chapter? Taking a bioseal doesn't score highly on the "trust Hazo" or "trust Hazo to give an order" metric, lol.
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Akatsuki's victory would be very bad, but it's not literally negative infinity; it's not an outcome we're willing to burn literally any amount of resources to prevent from happening, if for no other reason than that that would leave us less able to deal with similar situations in future. You can think that taking a bioseal is a sensible choice (significant risk but massive increase in our chances of success due to being able to deploy RERs without being detected by Hidan and also having Cannai on board) while not thinking that ordering Kei and Kagome to take bioseals is a sensible choice (permanently burns our relationship with them and probably the rest of Team Uplift or else causes them to decide we're compromised by Oro, in exchange for a very low probability of being able to summon one additional boss each).

T_of_A said:
Optimized wording for the Negociating As Men plan. Do this and you'll have my vote.


No xp penalty for this plan.

I removed some unnecessary parts :
  • No need to specify that we're avoiding legalese, we're already negociating as men. For the same reason, no need to discuss time-limited oaths or whatever, as we never specified that we were asking for a long-term promise and I think he'll default to something time-limited specific to this surgery.
  • I don't think we should be telling him about the scrying ritual. It's irrelevant, eats word count, and even without it we'd obviously want to raise Jiraiya.
  • We shouldn't end with "cowardice and ambition are incompatible", because our main motivation here isn't ambition. It's rational self-preservation.
  • I would prefer discussing some sort details of the deadman's switch... But let's discuss that once you've approved the above plan optimization.
I added in a detail (a reminder that the previous BoTG had far more essies than we do now), as well as explicitly saying that we'll be teaching runes to Jiraiya is we rez him (because he'll definitely order us to teach him once he's Clan Head again).
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@T_of_A , you didn't quote or ping @Noumero in this post so they may not have seen it.

Edit: Brain failure - wrong plan author.
 
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Rafin said:
Can we be full cards on the table and add "and Akane?
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I think it's a distraction - he isn't going to care about some random spec-jonin and she isn't first on the list unless we run into her first (which is true of pretty much every other dead person we know).

My intention is to demonstrate unusual value, something which has generally garnered his respect. He probably wants Jiraiya back, and if we can put 'decreases the chance I ever see my brother again' to the cons list of 'kill Hazo' that's useful.
CitizenTen said:
Either we think Akasuki is dangerous enough that we have to risk everything (bioseal) to win and "Kei's feelings" aren't a consideration or we're not. Leaders are needed most when somebody has to give hard orders nobody wants to hear.
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My objection isn't that the order is going to hurt someone's feelings. My objection is that we shouldn't give this order because it likely won't be obeyed because we don't have any real authority. We have the consent of the governed and losing it right now is going to send us into a social tailspin at the time we most need to be on our game.

I won't be discussing this further. It's a no from me, dawg.
Rafin said:
Can't we add a single line to the current plan to ask him as we lay down for surgery? Like, before the anesthesia (if we even get any).

Edit: That way it doesn't interfere with the negotiations in any way, but on the flip side it might shake some smidgen of sympathy loose at exactly the right moment.
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I don't expect Orochimaru is going to appreciate being distracted before undertaking a complex procedure. Maybe it shakes some sympathy loose. Maybe he feels manipulated and threatened. I'd rather lower variance than increase it.
Sir Stompy said:
This seems like a reasonable perspective to me. I want Hazou to act like he has a spine in these negotiations. I don't want the tone that we have a weak bargaining position. We literally do not
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So if I say something like 'conditional on Orochimaru having offered basic assurances, accept the seals', that works for you? Fine by me.
T_of_A said:
  • No need to specify that we're avoiding legalese, we're already negociating as men. For the same reason, no need to discuss time-limited oaths or whatever, as we never specified that we were asking for a long-term promise and I think he'll default to something time-limited specific to this surgery.
  • I don't think we should be telling him about the scrying ritual. It's irrelevant, eats word count, and even without it we'd obviously want to raise Jiraiya.
  • We shouldn't end with "cowardice and ambition are incompatible", because our main motivation here isn't ambition. It's rational self-preservation.
  • I would prefer discussing some sort details of the deadman's switch... But let's discuss that once you've approved the above plan optimization.
  • I added in a detail (a reminder that the previous BoTG had far more essies than we do now), as well as explicitly saying that we'll be teaching runes to Jiraiya is we rez him (because he'll definitely order us to teach him once he's Clan Head again).
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In order:
  • Yes, I agree.
  • I disagree: see above.
  • Our main motivation here is seeing the Akatsuki and death defeated. That's pretty ambitious IMO.
  • Sure, we can talk later, but I lean towards leaving it in.
  • I agree with the BotG framing but disagree that Jiraiya will necessarily be clan head or that even if he is, he'll have the juice to boss us around.
  • My plan is now below 400 words.
Updated plan below:
FaintlySorcerous said:
[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men
Word count: <400
  • Uplift
    • Hidan's blood-sensing range beats our runes' ranges. Without a bioseal, setting up runes is impossible. Five villages almost lost last time: failure is guaranteed without every single advantage.
      • We don't see any other way. The Akatsuki are an existential threat. We can't bank on Hidan's absence. Taking two seals is just as risky as one but gains us Cannai.
      • We're not just rolling over and dying.
        • Stress-test the 'Orochimaru' section with everyone. Ensure it's logically sound and consistent.
        • His attitude towards us has shifted substantially since we developed runecrafting. He's no social spec; this may be genuine.
    • We're all taking risks here - huge risks. This is ours.
    • We love you.
  • Orochimaru:
    • Arrive as Prime.
    • Tone:
      • Respectful but firm. Negotiating as men.
      • Motivated by rational self-preservation: not unthinking fear or morality.
    • His bioseals offer tactical advantages but significant strategic risks. Our incentives are aligned now, but what about after the battle?
      • He's the world's greatest biosealer. We expect he could malignantly seal us during the procedure.
      • Our death reduces the risk of runic proliferation and leaves him the world's sole runemaster, with uncontested Rift access.
      • We trust his honour, but he has strong incentives to see us dead or disabled.
    • What would he do in our position, and why?
      • Tsunade could theoretically observe the surgery, but she probably lacks the biosealing skill to notice a kill-seal. Could she examine us afterwards to detect anything untoward?
      • Will he give her his word not to give us malicious seals? If Naruto reinstated us as a Leaf nin, would he be bound by his previous commitment?
    • We see two other avenues to increase trust:
      • Enrich our model of him:
        • Are there rational arguments we can verify against his implanting malignant seals in us?
        • What are his plans for the Rift? Are they compatible with ours (reviving Jiraiya)? Explain our scrying ritual, the results, and the Toad Sages' confirmation.
      • Enact deterrents:
        • Would he swear oaths in front of Summons? With what conditions and penalty clauses?
        • We've enacted deadman switches but would prefer a more collaborative approach.
          • Refuse to discuss any details of the switches.
    • Conditional on Orochimaru offering some assurance, accept the seals.
      • After all, cowardice and ambition are incompatible, and we want the Akatsuki and death defeated.
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@FaintlySorcerous "We trust his honour, but he has strong incentives to see us dead or disabled" is in insult. To his face.
I strongly recommend rewording that.

That's why my earlier proposal went "We trust his honour, but we don't actually have his word on anything that would avoid him killing us." Here's another wording : "we trust his honour, and we'd feel safer with a public commitment on his part".

I still think that penalty clauses is a ridiculous thing to even mention when we bring up oaths, though. The penalty is being known as an oathbreaker, and debating clauses feels like the legalese we're trying to avoid.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
I quibble with the word "basic" I would prefer it was left out, however, if you feel we must I can live with it.

But yeah, now I'm really liking this plan.
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I'll fix that tonight.
T_of_A said:
@FaintlySorcerous "We trust his honour, but he has strong incentives to see us dead or disabled" is in insult. To his face.
I strongly recommend rewording that.

That's why my earlier proposal went "We trust his honour, but we don't actually have his word on anything that would avoid him killing us." Here's another wording : "we trust his honour, and we'd feel safer with a public commitment on his part".

EDIT: I said you'd have my vote if you fixed the word count, so... I still think that penalty clauses is a ridiculous thing to even mention when we bring up oaths, though. The penalty is being known as an oathbreaker, and debating clauses feels like the legalese we're trying to avoid.
[X] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men
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This is convincing: I'll make these changes in a few hours.
 
Kyreneryk said:
The quotes you've provided are for the storm created by Elemental Mastery, the ninjutsu. Superchillers, the runes, have different parameters. EJ has since reminded me that Hazou actually autonomously decided to research an "unchained" version rather than the 10-minute duration, 1 Zone AOE version we specified; this means that they probably would have long enough duration for our purposes (possibly much too long), but also might be vastly more powerful than the storm created by Elemental Mastery due to having a bigger AOE.
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If Unchained Superchillers have a large enough AoE... why not just nuke the Rift site by having 3 separate Unchained Superchillers go off in a equilateral triangle formation with the Rift site at their center?

Kyreneryk said:
... Our current predictions have four of the six Akatsuki members on-site at the Rift, together with a large number of jounin and a probably-very-trapped fortress. "Mop up" does not seem like the correct word.

Also, what Akatsuki reinforcements? Even if Itachi/Kisame immediately reverse-summoned to contact the other pair, if we win we could abscond with the Rift before any reinforcements could reasonably arrive. I suppose they could be warned when we contact Leaf - but then they might well show up at the same time we do, or too quickly for us to set up this hypothetical barrier.
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If all of our enemies are conveniently in one place and there are no civilians to worry about (like with a city), nuking them seems preferable to charging in with only Shadow Clones and some boss summons.

We should ask Oro if his method of contacting Tsunade would allow for her to tell us whether or not there are any Akatsuki members in Leaf currently. If they are there we can proceed with the barrier option to limit the amount of S-rankers we'd have to face and if not we have the opportunity to kill all of them in one massive coup de grâce.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
If Unchained Superchillers have a large enough AoE... why not just nuke the Rift site by having 3 separate Unchained Superchillers go off in a equilateral triangle formation with the Rift site at their center?
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Because Orochimaru will correctly predict that we are an existential threat to his survival, and kill us immediately.

Also, it'll make finding the rift location again a pain in the ass.
 
faflec said:
Because Orochimaru will correctly predict that we are an existential threat to his survival, and kill us immediately.
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So... our justification for NOT using our most powerful rune is that it might spook Orochimaru because we don't trust him.

But... we DO trust him enough to let him do incredibly risky surgeries on Hazou that our team unilaterally vehemently opposes..?

How much do we, the hivemind, trust Orochimaru and with what secrets? Are we always going to pretend that we aren't that scary while we currently collaborate with him in order to kill up to 6 other S-rankers?

I am very confused that letting him bioseal us is okay but letting him see nukes is not. Of course we are dangerous: weak people can't touch Akatsuki let alone kill them.

faflec said:
Also, it'll make finding the rift location again a pain in the ass.
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If all of Akatsuki's S-rankers are dead we'd have all of the time in the world.

Just sit back (from a very safe distance), kick back, relax, and watch the fireworks snowstorms.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
What are his plans for the Rift? Are they compatible with ours (reviving Jiraiya)? Explain our scrying ritual, the results, and the Toad Sages' confirmation.
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I do wonder what Orochimaru is thinking with respect to Jiraiya. We believe Orochimaru loves Jiraiya like a brother, and that may even be true, but his resurrection would lead to a substantial change in the balance of power of the Runecraft Cabal.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
So... our justification for NOT using our most powerful rune is that it might spook Orochimaru because we don't trust him.

But... we DO trust him enough to let him do incredibly risky surgeries on Hazou that our team unilaterally vehemently opposes..?
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If we tell this man about the EM Nuke and then show this man the EM Nuke in action at this fight, he is just going to kill us. 100000%, straight up, our ass is grass, guaranteed.

If you're looking to live forever, some brat who is objectively better than you at fucking with the fundamental forces of the cosmos running around and making nukes, well, that's kind of a non-starter I would think.

The team being spooked about the surgery isn't even particularly compelling evidence for or against this. Honestly, they spook way too easy about nonstandard stuff. If we told them about SSA/DoB we'd be chained up in a padded room somewhere. Ain't nobody got time for that.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
So... our justification for NOT using our most powerful rune is that it might spook Orochimaru because we don't trust him.

But... we DO trust him enough to let him do incredibly risky surgeries on Hazou that our team unilaterally vehemently opposes..?

How much do we, the hivemind, trust Orochimaru and with what secrets? Are we always going to pretend that we aren't that scary while we currently collaborate with him in order to kill up to 6 other S-rankers?

I am very confused that letting him bioseal us is okay but letting him see nukes is not. Of course we are dangerous: weak people can't touch Akatsuki let alone kill them.
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The major difference is that us getting biosealed gives Orochimaru power over us, but us revealing EM Nuke Runes reveals that Hazou is an existential threat to Orochimaru. Revealing the EM Nuke Rune tells Orochimaru that a) Hazou is capable of inventing civilization-ending weapons; b) Hazou is willing to deploy civilization-ending weapons; and c) Orochimaru is not likely to survive if Hazou decides to deploy civilization-ending weapons against him. The only way to stop Hazou from, at some future point, deploying civilization-ending weapons and killing or otherwise massively-inconveniencing Orochimaru, is by killing Hazou first (or Basement'ing him, but that's the same thing).

This is something that Orochimaru, based on my model of him, cannot abide. He's already concerned about runecraft proliferation given what we know; Hazou showing how easy it is for a runecrafter to end civilization would make Orochimaru want to kill him even if Hazou didn't show the ability to do it personally.

EDIT: Also what Emstar said.
 
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FaintlySorcerous said:
We're not just rolling over and dying.
  • Stress-test the 'Orochimaru' section with everyone. Ensure it's logically sound and consistent.
  • His attitude towards us has shifted substantially since we developed runecrafting. He's no social spec; this may be genuine.
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Given recent events, I think that I'd prefer stronger language about what Team Uplift's role in this discussion is supposed to be.

I'd love to get Mari to optimize our language choices and Kei to look through our logic and conditionals to see if it could be improved, but I'm concerned that we're just going to get a long scene where they try to shut us down instead of improving our odds of the plan we're going to execute anyway.

That second bullet point especially seems like it's going to result in a lot of our team telling us we're wrong or misguided.
 
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_The_Bomb said:
Given recent events, I think that I'd prefer stronger language about what Team Uplift's role in this discussion is supposed to be.

I'd love to get Mari to optimize our language choices and Kei to look through our logic and conditionals to see if it could be improved, but I'm concerned that we're just going to get a long scene where they try to shut us down instead of improving our odds of the plan we're going to execute anyway.

That second bullet point especially seems like it's going to result in a lot of our team telling us we're wrong or misguided.
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While I do agree that the team isn't going to like it, I don't see them as seriously trying to shut us down once they see we're committed to our course of action.

That being said, the second bullet may want to be edited significantly, or maybe even be killed. @FaintlySorcerous your thoughts?
_The_Bomb said:
Notably, before Jiraiya's death him and Orochimaru seemed to make amends. It was Jiraiya's order that pardoned Oro, in fact.
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IIRC QMs said Jiraiya's pardon was partially politically-motivated since Leaf would probably need the extra firepower post-BotG.
 
faflec said:
While I do agree that the team isn't going to like it, I don't see them as seriously trying to shut us down once they see we're committed to our course of action.
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I'd rather get that part out of the way upfront, because I don't particularly enjoy reading eight hundred words of "Reasons Why You Suck," especially if it's completely redundant afterward.
 
absoluteblack said:
Just tell Mari to lightning-fist-explode Hazou's chuunin ass if we start acting up after we win the Rift. No shot implanted bioseals make it to the Pure Lands, and then we'll just have to run the necro arc from the inside (something something minatosealing, something). If Oro is lazy enough to just tomato sauce us, that just saves a step tbh
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I'm voting for this plan largely because it has that section.
[/QUOTE]

[x] Action Plan: Negotiating as Men

Admittedly it'd be quite annoying if our beloved family members yell at us for making a self-destructive decision. Not a sarcasm, just my genuine belief.

Also: I wonder if this put us back on Kei's Calder-adar
 
Paperclipped said:
"The answer is obviously yes. Now, you might say, 'if I were to scribe a seal on a torn piece of paper, I would scribe it on the smallest whole part, as attempting to scribe across a tear would be obviously suicidal'. Indeed, I am a skilled surgeon. I could likely apply the bioseal even on a damaged chakra system. Nonetheless, the human chakra system is perhaps the most complex biological system of the body, bar the brain. Seemingly-simple functions such as chakra regeneration remain impossible to replicate despite years of study. Operating on a damaged system would introduce complications and extend recovery time from days to weeks or more. You will not attend the surgery with damaged chakra coils."
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@Paperclipped minor typo
 
Emstar said:
If we tell this man about the EM Nuke and then show this man the EM Nuke in action at this fight, he is just going to kill us. 100000%, straight up, our ass is grass, guaranteed.

If you're looking to live forever, some brat who is objectively better than you at fucking with the fundamental forces of the cosmos running around and making nukes, well, that's kind of a non-starter I would think.

The team being spooked about the surgery isn't even particularly compelling evidence for or against this. Honestly, they spook way too easy about nonstandard stuff. If we told them about SSA/DoB we'd be chained up in a padded room somewhere. Ain't nobody got time for that.
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faflec said:
The major difference is that us getting biosealed gives Orochimaru power over us, but us revealing EM Nuke Runes reveals that Hazou is an existential threat to Orochimaru. Revealing the EM Nuke Rune tells Orochimaru that a) Hazou is capable of inventing civilization-ending weapons; b) Hazou is willing to deploy civilization-ending weapons; and c) Orochimaru is not likely to survive if Hazou decides to deploy civilization-ending weapons against him. The only way to stop Hazou from, at some future point, deploying civilization-ending weapons and killing or otherwise massively-inconveniencing Orochimaru, is by killing Hazou first (or Basement'ing him, but that's the same thing).

This is something that Orochimaru, based on my model of him, cannot abide. He's already concerned about runecraft proliferation given what we know; Hazou showing how easy it is for a runecrafter to end civilization would make Orochimaru want to kill him even if Hazou didn't show the ability to do it personally.

EDIT: Also what Emstar said.
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Okay I think I understand why this reasoning wasn't making sense to me before: what (to you two or anyone else who believes the same) functionally is the difference in spooking Orochimaru between unleashing EM nukes and resurrecting Leaf S-rankers?

We (to my understanding) currently plan on securing the Rift site so that we can have enough firepower to protect Konoha from all of the reprisals Akatsuki survivors and/or AMITY sends at Leaf for working with international criminals. These S-rankers will pose just as much of an existential threat to Orochimaru as Hiruzen, Jiraiya, Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato ideally will all come back.

How we open the Rift is in itself an existential risk to Orochimaru. We're not just adding firepower to the world at large but we would be consolidating it under one village's banner and with Akatsuki (ideally) eliminated Orochimaru would be one of the few S-rankers left that they would have to concern themselves with.

Given that desired eventuality I would assume it would be better to have Oro witness us unleashing hitherto unfathomable destruction so he thinks twice before ganking us at the Rift site. If we are still concerned about sudden betrayal we can have Naruto and Tsunade standing by while we nuke the Rift site if we believe all of Akatsuki's S-rankers are stationed there. WMD Proliferation is a long term problem compared to Pain coming back after all.
 
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