- Location
- Texas
[X] Hazō Training Plan: Just. One. More. Level.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Yes.
One day.
Thought this was quite well put <3 But just as another data point for you all (@eaglejarl , @Velorien , @Paperclipped): I actually really liked the tone and comms of your original post! Just goes to show that communication is not one size fits all. In particular:
- I thought leading with "we have bad news" didn't sugarcoat it and made it clear what the possible consequences might be
- You all took full ownership of the issue and apologized for not meeting the (unrealistically high!) standards you've set yourselves for consistency
- You were open to alternative solutions, but still made it clear that in lieu of that you'd be moving forward with your proposal (which let's us know what we would need to plan around if we can't find a resolution)
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Pinging also @Velorien @Paperclipped
I want to be very clear here and open with a disclaimer that I am not accusing you guys of intentional malice or anything in that vein. At worst, this is a repeating pattern that any capability of Hazou's necessarily receives mechanical scrutiny that something like Magnet Release doesn't.
That said, this is not a minor change and I am quite upset about it. As I'm sure y'all are aware but I want to reiterate for anyone who hasn't considered the implications, this effectively removes Boss Summoning as the tool for which it was advertised (having an essie in a pokéball). It would not have been available to use for the Fire Cave, for the Squirrel Nin, or most of the combats in the quest so far. I expect that pattern to continue. Cannai will not come into play for the virtually any combats whatsoever. I don't care if we can't use him for regular unstags, but if we get jumped by Hidan, having him available to Summon is a literal lifesaver, that's gone.
What this feels like from my internal perspective is that a rug has been pulled out from under the players at the last moment, Hazou's hard work befriending Cannai and solving the Dragons (over years!), is -- wasted is the wrong word -- but the reward we thought we'd get isn't nearly as good as what was advertised by having a willing Boss Summon. I think this is largely due to a systemic issue that things Hazou gets fall under increased mechanical scrutiny, but it's still upsetting from a player perspective, hearing (for years) about the characters hyping something up, and then we get it and it doesn't solve any of our problems or very few.
Boss Summoning was always balanced (I thought) around the consequences of Bosses being very busy, difficult to Summon, weaker on the Human Path, and unwilling to be Summoned in general and especially to take the consequences of a forced Unsummoning for trivial matters (how much would you need to pay a head of state to take a Severe?). Not that they were impossible to Summon for most ninja combat.
Orochimaru's habits of Summoning Mandaa and Hiruzens's habits of Summoning Enma are not definitive examples of this change needing retcons, but certainly the prevailing attitudes expressed by the characters did not communicate that Summoning a Boss was this significant of a time investment for them.
I don't understand why this change is necessary or desirable at this point, and I would really sincerely appreciate some communication from the QM team about why they decided to make this change, now, right as it looks like Hazou might be able to Summon Cannai for the first time.
I want to reiterate at the end that I am trying to express my feelings about this in a constructive way, please let me know if this came of as hostile, because that was sincerely not my intent. Thanks.
My assumption had been that @Velorien 's announcement earlier implicitly conveyed (by stating an alternative solution that didn't mention it) that the "Bosses take half a day to summon" thing was not going to made a rule. If this is not the case, then I agree this conflicts with Oro's use of Mandā and Asuma/Hiruzen's use of Emma; but I think it likely that it is the case.
- Location
- United States
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
There is one things that seems obvious but I'd like to confirm just in case I am misunderstanding something.
At the time when the Battle of the Gods occurred (and y'all had to do a ludicrous amount of work to faithfully simulate the thing), there was no in-universe explanation for why the allied forces did not use Summon Bosses? And because the outcome of the Battle of the Gods occurred so long ago and had such a major impact on the setting, it's impossible to retcon and is essentially a Fixed Point á la Doctor Who. As a result of that, we had to come up with a change to the setting that retroactively justifies why there weren't more summons at the Battle of the Gods.
Is that a correct description of the situation?
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- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
All of that is accurate.
- Location
- United States
Thank you for the confirmation!
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- Location
- Liverpool
[X] Hazō Training Plan: Just. One. More. Level.
Potential for best doggo is real! Plus, when we FINALLY start Minato sealing and technique hacking, getting it to 40 for an improved AB/degree of success will be seen as relatively minor.
(Edit: Yes, yes, I know the 40 slot is important enough it won't actually be minor, same with raising physique when we're already right there. But I can dream. Plus, we just need to bump all our combat stats into the 50s+ first, no problem. (Yes, I know, the pyramid math and things like ES and callig and SC being almost permanent fixtures, we'll need to push for 60s. I'm totally okay with ath 60+))
You know, if we survive that long
Potential for best doggo is real! Plus, when we FINALLY start Minato sealing and technique hacking, getting it to 40 for an improved AB/degree of success will be seen as relatively minor.
(Edit: Yes, yes, I know the 40 slot is important enough it won't actually be minor, same with raising physique when we're already right there. But I can dream. Plus, we just need to bump all our combat stats into the 50s+ first, no problem. (Yes, I know, the pyramid math and things like ES and callig and SC being almost permanent fixtures, we'll need to push for 60s. I'm totally okay with ath 60+))
You know, if we survive that long
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- Location
- United States
That will be next week when we end up voting in Hazō Training Plan: Just. One. More. Level. (Two).
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- USA
That is not what we said. What we said was:
- We strongly dislike giving WOG statements about information that Hazō does not have; we feel that it violates the entire value proposition of the quest and we avoid it unless it is absolutely essential.
- As an absolutely essential part of settling the recent kerfluffle, we made one WOG statement about information that Hazō does not have, specifically the fact that it was indeed one of Pain's abilities that shut down the summons, whereas Hazō only knows that it was speculated to be such.
- We voluntarily made another WOG statement about information that Hazō does not have, specifically the fact that Akatsuki were aware of Zoo Rush and were extremely alarmed about that fact.
It would be extremely helpful if someone could come up with that citation. We do not remember making it and did not factor it into our earlier statements. It would also be helpful to know if we said that it was impossible period, impossible for Hazō, or if we simply rated a particular seal design as "Jiraiya" which is not the same as either of the preceding two.
That does seem like a good idea, yes. Thank you for the suggestion.
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- Yes.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes.
I ultimately still find it implausible that the Akatsuki have anything beyond a single-use 'all Summons go away' seal array but I guess shrug. It seems like they definitely have at least that so I dunno what we do.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Seconding this. I would also appreciate it if we knew what the (effective) difference between a sealing array and a Rune is, since sealing arrays seem to bypass the "power" limiters that paper seals have operated under (i.e. "they cannot channel much power," and "if it were possible, the current setting would look different").
- Location
- Texas
This was at effective PS 44.
I think the bigger issue a lot of the playerbase is having is that we have seen zero evidence of these large seal arrays in the story despite having access to the vast majority of Leaf's seals and Jirayia's sealing hoard. As far as I can tell, the main source of information we have on sealing arrays is an ooc comment EJ made a few years ago:
If we had any idea that you could do something as crazy as pushing away all Nature Chakra from an area with paper seals, we would have devoted more time to this technique over the years. Furthermore, the fact that Sasori or Konan could work nature chakra into sealcraft despite not being a summoner, despite Hazo failing to to figure out even the vaguest detail about nature chakra, would break the suspension of disbelief of many players. Personally, I would feel like the Akatsuki are being granted an extra ability that does not make sense with the observed setting (and I have heard other players say the same).
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I will note that this rune asks specifically to block Reverse Summoning but not standard Summoning. It's possible that a rune that blocked both Summoning and Reverse Summoning would be easier.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm going to steelman for a minute here:
- The specific effect of 'ban this sort of Summoning but leave normal Summoning alone' is substantially more complex than a general prohibition against Summoning.
- The Akatsuki could downgrade the complexity of the required array by sitting a chuunin next to the activation element, nervously waiting for the signal to activate the array, which would send out some sort of pulse which disrupts Summons. Maybe the array burns out after a single use. Maybe it's a contested roll as opposed to a flat 'you cannot pass'.
- As we all know, Sasori is actually the Puppet Summoner and therefore has the requisite knowledge.
- It would not surprise me to learn that Pain had a rough understanding of what Nature chakra is and does, nor would it be overly surprising to me to learn that he gave the Akatsuki some pertinent lore. Part of the reason that we don't know anything about anything is that no one will talk to us. If Pain was free-er (freer?) with lore, that problem is solved for the Akatsuki.
- The Akatsuki have sensory capabilities which outstrip our own. It does not strike me as utterly impossible that Kisame and Itachi would have spent a lot of time staring at their Summons and know a thing or two, even if it's just enough to be able to describe nature chakra in sufficiently-broad details to give a dedicated sealmaster a place to start.
However, your comments about arrays are spot on. Rolls have never come back such that Hazo thinks he could do something complicated given multiple seals, and we've tried to do complicated things. We've never had any mechanics for them despite knowing a lot about paper seals. If the only way this effect can be achieved is via a sealing array, then that would certainly seem inconsistent, and it sure doesn't seem like the sort of thing that could be achieved with a single seal.
If the anti Zoo Rush seals/countermeasures the Akatsuki have developed are both seal-based and mobile, I will eat my slippers. As a knock-on, I would also be surprised to learn that they spent considerable time developing static defenses given that they're not really static location people - up until the Rift, at least. It would strain my disbelief if Sasori had developed Rift-opening seals and anti-Zoo Rush Seals and done...literally anything else, really. Both are big projects in which he has little to no reference knowledge even if Itachi and Kisame are helping him out.
As an aside, I would be tremendously interested to know how a sealing array might fare against a RER barrage. I prefer to assume 'not well', rendering this largely moot.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Seconding this.
And we know, firsthand, that there is no such thing as inter-disciplinary research between two parties, so Itachi and Kisame are unable to help out.
I would like to point that this still breaks continuity. As recently as the research rolls for Iron Earth, Hazō-pilot has had no trouble unilaterally adjusting the parameters of a research project if he, Hazou-pilot, thought that the initial goal (assigned by the players, without access to the blackbox) was too ambitious.
Under this, Hazou-pilot should have (as has become standard) adjusted the research project to be more viable to his understanding of the blackboxed research system.
It's one of the benefits of Hazou-pilot being granted an increased degree of agency by the playerbase.
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[X] Armageddon Initiative
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Quick straw poll:
Funny-react if the Akatsuki having developed the capability to disrupt Summons over an extended area for an extended period of time would not surprise you.
Lightbulb-react if the Akatsuki having developed some anti-Summon capabilities (e.g. a jutsu which instantaneously disrupts all Summons in some AOE but does not prevent their speedy re-Summon, a seal which increases the cost of maintaining Summons within its AOE) lesser than Pain's would not surprise you.
Winter-react if the Akatsuki having developed any meaningful anti-Summon capabilities would surprise you.
(Please) make these judgements based on game knowledge as opposed to metagaming. Take into account the definitive QM statements about the Akatsuki's concern and Pain's powers (I personally assumed these things to be true even prior to the definitive QM statements) but don't think about the implications of the fact that we were given these statements.
I expect that most people will lightbulb-react. (It's what I would do if I could react to my own posts.) Even prior to the definitive QM statement we could have suspected that they saw the Zoo Rush and felt threatened by Leaf, and once they had a meaningful static location to defend it makes sense that they'd develop countermeasures. However, if any of it instantly no-sells Cannai or Summons in general, I'm going to be very, very surprised.
Funny-react if the Akatsuki having developed the capability to disrupt Summons over an extended area for an extended period of time would not surprise you.
Lightbulb-react if the Akatsuki having developed some anti-Summon capabilities (e.g. a jutsu which instantaneously disrupts all Summons in some AOE but does not prevent their speedy re-Summon, a seal which increases the cost of maintaining Summons within its AOE) lesser than Pain's would not surprise you.
Winter-react if the Akatsuki having developed any meaningful anti-Summon capabilities would surprise you.
(Please) make these judgements based on game knowledge as opposed to metagaming. Take into account the definitive QM statements about the Akatsuki's concern and Pain's powers (I personally assumed these things to be true even prior to the definitive QM statements) but don't think about the implications of the fact that we were given these statements.
I expect that most people will lightbulb-react. (It's what I would do if I could react to my own posts.) Even prior to the definitive QM statement we could have suspected that they saw the Zoo Rush and felt threatened by Leaf, and once they had a meaningful static location to defend it makes sense that they'd develop countermeasures. However, if any of it instantly no-sells Cannai or Summons in general, I'm going to be very, very surprised.
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- Location
- United States
Excluding things like "Deidra-level landmines," "Sasori chakra thread detective perimeters," and other such defenses that would be totally effective on summons but also don't use something about the inherent nature of a summon to autowin?
If so, Winter would be my expectation.
I would be shocked if a 'mundane' Sealmaster couldn't harden a perimeter in a way that would make a Zoo Rush much more difficult, however. Konan and Sasori could likely do significantly more than that.
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- Location
- Cave
[X] Armageddon Initiative
We are as the ocean against the cliffs. Inevitable.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think this boils down to "Who, When, and How Exactly, and Why Now?" for me.
1) Who
As far as I can tell, the quest's mechanical stance on cross discipline research collaboration is that it doesn't exist in any meaningful way. So Kisame or Konan explaining some chakradynamics technique hacking nonsense to Sasori is going to fall on deaf ears.
If the countermeasures are fuinjutsu related, then it's either Itachi, Konan, or Sasori doing it, in increasing order of likelyhood. If it's jutsu related, then it's probably Konan, Kisame, or Itachi. If it's both, then that more or less leaves Konan and Itachi.
Of those individuals, who has the free time to do this? Sasori has been replacing all of his puppets presumably and doing rift related research for most of that time. Konan has an entire village to run. Kisame has been handling all of the AMITY diplomacy stuff as far as we can tell (in addition to whatever duties he has with the Sharks), and as one of Akatsuki's summoners he probably spends a lot of time traveling and relaying info to Itachi on the 7th Path or vice versa. That basically leaves Itachi insofar as candidates who would have a massive swathe of unaccounted for time are concerned.
2) When?
In general it seems to me they've all been pretty busy since we ran into Hidan and Itachi on Ouzu, and meaningful anti-summon countermeasures would be no mean feat to accomplish. We could presume that it would be nontrivial, I think, which would imply a lengthy research project or series of research projects.
So when exactly would it have been accomplished? How does that fit in to whatever they were presumably busy doing beforehand? Etc. Unless they were all sitting in a tavern in Rain twiddling their thumbs for several months in between sending Akatsuki members to run into us in end-of-chapter cliffhangers, then squeezing in a massive research project for one or two of them to work on seems like a bit of a tight fit to me.
3) How Exactly
So, are the countermeasures ninjutsu or fuinjutsu? I would think that it would be quite difficult to pull off a general purpose summon popper jutsu, that seems like it would be so horrifically unbalanced that the setting constraints would essentially demand that it be impossible to craft. Perhaps in a limited form a jutsu would make sense, but I interpret "meaningful countermeasures" to mean that this is something that can be deployed at battlefield-scale and without much effort in the moment, or could otherwise be prepared on site in advance. I would think sealing would be the better option there, since the chakra diffusion effect is a thing.
Mechanistically speaking, there are a few ways I can think of that you can fuck with summons: some sort of dimensional fucky wucky thing, some sort of nature chakra based thing, an effect that specifically targets chakra constructs, or something that drains chakra sources.
The first seems beyond the pale to me for anyone who isnt Nagato. Who knows enough about how the summoning scrolls and summoning technique and the 7th Path to just flat out ban summoning in a region? Seems like it'd be a tall order to me.
Fucking with nature chakra directly as was initially proposed seems like itd be a much easier bet, but what even is nature chakra and how does one fuck with it? Does Akatsuki know about it? Do they have tools to detect it in a meaningful enough way to do this research? Do the people doing the research have access to that information or is it kept secret by their more paranoid members? How does one go from the first step to the final product when approaching this problem from this perspective, without essentially invoking the Underpants Gnome Effect and skipping all of the hard bits?
Fucking with all chakra constructs seems more doable, but a taller order to weaponize, since if this could easily be done at scale, it would render useless entire classes of jutsu...
Simply draining all of the chakra indiscriminately into a black hole would do the trick. How does the user survive activating that at a meaningful AOE? How does that effect maintain itself for more than an instant? Why is that not just Instant Kill no Jutsu? Etc.
4) Why Now?
Summoning is a pretty big combat boost that everyone in the shinobi world knows about. If countermeasures to this were accessible, then why didn't someone else already do it? If you could construct a jutsu that does the trick, why did Sarutobi Hiruzen, who knew about Nature Chakra and Sage Mode, not make one? If you could do it with seals, why did Jiraiya or Orochinaru not deem this as a line item worth investigating? If not them, then what of their contemporaries in other villages?
I think I'd have to go with "Snowflake" there out of the options then. I would be much less skeptical on net , I think, if our dive into the chakra water cave didn't go as it did, or if our experience creating novel interesting things from scratch didn't tend to hit some bumpy roads with some of the thornier questions and topics above. But by and large, it seems as if finding the specific kind of weird stuff to interact with in-setting is pretty dang hard to do without dying, and it also seems like you have to be very lucky and the genius of the century to encounter anything in the wild and get some meaningful crumbs of information out of it. "How do you even detect it's strawberry chakra magic anyway?"
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