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From the sounds of it if we can somehow combine RE with Landmine Runes, we would maybe be able to build a static targeting array in the sky and just trigger it with MARS? Keep the runes pointed where they need to point with mechanical action (glue them, duct tape them, put ninja wire or stone braces to hold them in place and pointed at the same location, do all the math out beforehand, etc.) and then just key them to a few different MARS chains.

That seems to me like it would work fine and basically allow for locally optimized Moar Dakka, though the danger here is that targeting for a given set wouldnt be modifiable so if a litter of innocent puppies appears in the respective targeting area while Hidan (lets say) is in there, then its all or nothing (fire on both or dont fire).

Seems like a very promising wombo combo to me, we should investigate that.
Work out a MARS variant that activates when you stop applying chakra adhesion to it, aim a bunch of remote explosives at an excessively sturdy stone circle on the ground (big enough to contain multiple zones, but still be more than covered by a full-strength explosive rune), then have a shadow clone holding the deadman-switch seal challenge Hidan and Kisame to a duel.
"You win if you can get this seal away from me, without destroying it or setting it off. I win if I can force you out of this circle before I run out of spare seals. Loser owes the winner a year of full-time work, or 100kg of gold, or some proportional mix, at the losing side's discretion after finding out what specific sort of service the winner wants."
Shadow clone pops, or otherwise stops actively applying chakra adhesion to the deadman switch? MARS chain sets off all the remote explosives up in the sky. Dodging outside the blast radius means leaving the circle, thus losing the duel. If the essies somehow manage a win, casually hand over a storage seal full of gold and offer to play again.
 
However, we recently made a concerning discovery about the Great Seal. We can't offer skytowers anymore.
This seems overly cautious? Seal use by ninja has been happening for millennium. So take the entire history of seal's since the Great Seal was created. Every spatial seal since invention has been bothering the Great Seal. And just recently, by chance, the first Great Seal leak happened. And ninja's are continually using seals all over the world. There's probably thousands or tens of thousands of seals being used daily by ninja.

The chance that our extra 30 or so seal towers we send over will be the direct cause of another leak is negligible. It's definitely a drop in the bucket compared to the ninja seal use across all the villages everywhere
.

Disavow.
 
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[X] [poll] I am willing to accept this level of risk to research Rift Runes

If you had unlimited basketballs and tried to hit a human on a plane ride from LA to New York, you'd struggle pretty hard. There's just a bunch of dead space everywhere. A tiny hole that opens for a few milliseconds during testing is pretty safe. Most random spots in space are just dead air and aren't near anything important.

If you teleported somewhere randomly in the universe you wouldn't likely survive it for more than a few minutes at most.

A lot of qualia are not the same thing as "safe" or "survivable". The analogical equivocation does not necessarily hold any water here.

[X] [poll] I am willing to accept this level of risk to research Rift Runes
[X] Action Plan: Lord of War
 
If it is, I am even more ready to do it. There's no way opening a tiny portal to a random patch of Out for a few milliseconds is going to kill us. If such patches of instant death were dense across Out, the majority of sealing failures would've been similarly lethal, and our survival of the bladehorrors rift becomes incredibly unlikely in retrospect.

Like, it's probably dramatically safer than returning to Iron: the density of Akatsuki members across Iron may well be higher than the density of instant death across Out.
Yeah I agree. Although I think it will be closer to seconds than milliseconds
This seems overly cautious? Seal use by ninja has been happening for millennium. So take the entire history of seal's since the Great Seal was created. Every spatial seal since invention has been bothering the Great Seal. And just recently, by chance, the first Great Seal leak happened. And ninja's are continually using seals all over the world. There's probably thousands or tens of thousands of seals being used daily by ninja.

The chance that our extra 30 or so seal towers we send over will be the direct cause of another leak is negligible. It's definitely a drop in the bucket compared to the ninja seal use across all the villages everywhere.
You did realize that this is just for seals used on the Seventh Path right...?
 
From my understanding, the Great Seal is a crappy storage seal, that somehow(?) gets holes poked in it whenever a storage seal(or other spatial seals) are used? So after a while, the Great Seal is gonna break due to people using to many spatial seals?
Yeah, basically.
If this is roughly true, would you guess this happen equally on the 7th path, the ninja world, and the Afterlife(?) realm? (the place we're opening a rift to) and all other realms we could potentially open rifts to?
Hazou seemed to think it only gets destabilized in response to spatial effects on the Seventh Path. Doing spacetime shenanigans on the Human Path is okay.
Wasn't the Great Seal supposed to put away a limited number of people the Sage didn't like? Wasn't that basically only the dragons? I could be wrong(?) but weren't we told pretty much the names or the myths of all the people that got sealed in the Great Seal at one point? Wasn't it like the brothers that betrayed the Sage or something? Or am I tripping?
The reputable and direct sources of information on the Great Seal only ever reported the Dragons being sealed there. Hazou is simply speculating that the Great Seal might've been used to imprison more than just the Dragons.

Kagome once speculated that the Seventh Path as a whole might've been created by the Sage as a prison for his peers. None of the other sources of information about the Sage's comrades suggested he imprisoned them on the Seventh Path, and certainly made no connection to the Great Seal.
Basically, I want to know. If the Great Seal breaks, do we expect a bunch of straggler dragons that didn't make it out the first time, or a giant flood of new and novice threats that are even greater and scarier than the dragon?
We expect more powerful Dragons as a minimum, since the power of the Dragons who'd escaped seemed to grow in order of escape + there are some theory-based speculations that the Great Seal might leak the "smallest" threats first.
If it's just a few more dragons I'd say we shouldn't be too worried about breaking the seal? We beat them before pretty handedly? And it's been at least a millennium of ninja seal use, and just now by chance did the dragons break out. Seems pretty safe probability wise that we won't need to worry about this for at least another 5 years?
The subsequent threats the Great Seal leaks will likely be more dangerous than the crop of the Dragons we've killed, and the Great Seal only responds to spacetime manipulation on the Seventh Path, which there was a recent surge of due to our mass export of skytowers and storage seals. On the other hand, we did ameliorate the issue using HOWS...

I think we're probably safe for a year, i. e., enough time for the Akatsuki plotline to play out. Five years, I wouldn't be so sure.
 
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[X] [poll] I am NOT willing to accept this risk and I have a better idea for how we can research Rift Runes.
 
These are cool, and give a good array set for success!

If you find the time before I do, I think living roots would be our best veterancy test for ES, so we should prep an improvement on it at some point.

Made a couple, though I think we should use Earth Bullet before we tackle Living Roots. We'll never use Earth Bullet, so there's no problem if we flub the rolls without any veterancy. Whereas we actually use Living Roots (rarely, but we do), so it's important we don't flub the rolls too badly.


Swift Living Roots

TypeManeuverStrain
ElementEarth
Effect1 - Aspect Bonus10, 30, 60, etc
DurationMinute60
Durabilityn/a
Range-2 (caster)
Casting SpeedSupplemental +75
AOE1 target (caster)
AdvantageSkill Bonus: Alertness+30
AdvantageAffects Initiative+30
DisadvantageSpecial:
Jutsu performance significantly degraded if caster moves
-20
Total Strain175+(10, 30, 60...)
Casting Cost35+(2, 6, 12…)

Living Roots, but Supplemental


Reactive Living Roots

TypeManeuverStrain
ElementEarth
Effect1 - Aspect Bonus10, 30, 60, etc
DurationMinute60
Durabilityn/a
Range-2 (caster)
Casting SpeedStandard 0
AOE1 target (caster)
AdvantageReflexive+20
AdvantageSkill Bonus: Alertness+30
AdvantageAffects Initiative+30
DisadvantageSpecial:
Jutsu performance significantly degraded if caster moves
-20
Total Strain120+(10, 30, 60...)
Casting Cost24+(2, 6, 12…)

Living Roots, but a reflexive standard.


Rapid Living Roots

TypeManeuverStrain
ElementEarth
Effect1 - Aspect Bonus10, 30, 60, etc
DurationMinute60
Durabilityn/a
Range-2 (caster)
Casting SpeedSupplemental+75
AOE1 target (caster)
AdvantageReflexive+30
AdvantageSkill Bonus: Alertness+30
AdvantageAffects Initiative+30
DisadvantageSpecial:
Jutsu performance significantly degraded if caster moves
-20
Total Strain205+(10, 30, 60...)
Casting Cost41+(2, 6, 12…)

Living Roots, but Reflexive Supplemental



Strong Living Roots

TypeManeuverStrain
ElementEarth
Effect1 - Aspect Bonus10, 30, 60, etc
DurationMinute60
Durabilityn/a
Range-2 (caster)
Casting Speedstandard
AOE1 target (caster)
AdvantageSkill Bonus: Alertness+30
AdvantageAffects Initiative+30
DisadvantageSpecial:
Jutsu performance mildly degraded if caster moves
-10
Total Strain110+(10, 30, 60...)
Casting Cost22+(2, 6, 12…)

Living Roots, but a reduced penalty when moving. Default is 3*AB, and the penalty is merely 2*AB, rather than the OG 1*AB


Enduring Living Roots

TypeManeuverStrain
ElementEarth
Effect1 - Aspect Bonus10, 30, 60, etc
DurationMinute60
Durabilityn/a
Range-2 (caster)
Casting Speedstandard
AOE1 target (caster)
AdvantageSkill Bonus: Alertness+30
AdvantageAffects Initiative+30
Total Strain120+(10, 30, 60...)
Casting Cost24+(2, 6, 12…)

Living Roots, but without the movement-based penalty. Boost remains 3*AB, regardless of movement.
 
What is ELF explosive? Been somewhat tuned out of the thread for a while so I'm missing the acronyms, but saw that we just finished research on that.
Extremely Long Fuse Explosive, although I think this got answered.


This part, I have questions about. Pinging also @eaglejarl @Velorien : what exactly does "line of effect" mean here? Is it about the density of matter in the way (so leaves don't block it but a Force Dome does)? Or does the Force Dome block REs because it's a chakra effect?
Density of matter -- basically yes. I'm likely to regret using an analogy but...

This is an ANALOGY. It is NON-BINDING and used ONLY for the purpose of illustration. If you still have questions after reading this ANALOGY then simply forget the analogy completely and we'll try something else.

Think of it like a long-range howitzer. You can drop shells through forest canopy but not through a dome of invulnerable steel.

To ask about the use case I'm envisioning: can you fire Remote Explosives through large quantities of stone? Specifically, can we set them up underground and then fire them at a distant target?
I think the others have gone to bed but I feel very confident answering this one:

No, you cannot shoot through large amounts of stone.

So does this mean that even if we "miss" with a full powered remote explosive and hit a zone adjacent to our target zone, the target zone will still need a TN80 to dodge?
Correct.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped If we set up the rune such that we are aiming at a bottlenecked zone (by which I mean, several or all adjacent zones are considered to be "invalid" by the line-of-effect rule), can the rune detonate those invalid zones?
We haven't discussed this point but I would imagine that if you can hit the target then you can hit the target. After that, the explosion works as normal. If you're picturing something like a narrow shaft that leads down into a multi-zone underground cavern then my assumption is that yes, the explosion would spread into the adjacent zones.

Iron rifts are acceptable, could try the reverse summon rift, etc.
What are these?

Wait, didn't the Archaeopteryx Clan kill like a bunch of Dragons besides the 6 we saw?
The intent there was "nothing aside from Dragons came out" but you're right that it's unclear. Will fix.

The Microrift Rune spec specifies "a rift as close to a rift scar as possible" – why not create a rift and just let it naturally decay to an actual (presumably near-perfectly safe) scar?
That's my understanding of what the Microrift Rune does...
Is that what Hazou prepped?
Hazō prepped what the spec says, yes. We didn't discuss its mechanism of action but my imagining is that it opens a small rift, sustains it for a short time, and then the rift closes and degrades into a scar.

Can someone check my reading comprehension of the chapter?

From my understanding, the Great Seal is a crappy storage seal, that somehow(?) gets holes poked in it whenever a storage seal(or other spatial seals) are used? So after a while, the Great Seal is gonna break due to people using to many spatial seals?
The Great Seal is a spacetime effect that is emulating a storage seal. Hazō's best guess is that every time a spatial seal is used on the Seventh Path it applies a small stress to the Great Seal's chakra matrix. This weakens it and can cause holes to open.


Wasn't the Great Seal supposed to put away a limited number of people the Sage didn't like? Wasn't that basically only the dragons? I could be wrong(?) but weren't we told pretty much the names or the myths of all the people that got sealed in the Great Seal at one point? Wasn't it like the brothers that betrayed the Sage or something? Or am I tripping?
Hazō has no information on what is in the Seal. It could be empty now, for all he knows. You're right that you were given lore on people the Sage used to associate with but you have no idea if it's a complete list.

Basically, I want to know. If the Great Seal breaks, do we expect a bunch of straggler dragons that didn't make it out the first time, or a giant flood of new and novice threats that are even greater and scarier than the dragon?
HDK


Work out a MARS variant that activates when you stop applying chakra adhesion to it, aim a bunch of remote explosives at an excessively sturdy stone circle on the ground (big enough to contain multiple zones, but still be more than covered by a full-strength explosive rune), then have a shadow clone holding the deadman-switch seal challenge Hidan and Kisame to a duel.
"You win if you can get this seal away from me, without destroying it or setting it off. I win if I can force you out of this circle before I run out of spare seals. Loser owes the winner a year of full-time work, or 100kg of gold, or some proportional mix, at the losing side's discretion after finding out what specific sort of service the winner wants."
Shadow clone pops, or otherwise stops actively applying chakra adhesion to the deadman switch? MARS chain sets off all the remote explosives up in the sky. Dodging outside the blast radius means leaving the circle, thus losing the duel. If the essies somehow manage a win, casually hand over a storage seal full of gold and offer to play again.
This would be a super fun scene to write.
 
Hazō prepped what the spec says, yes. We didn't discuss its mechanism of action but my imagining is that it opens a small rift, sustains it for a short time, and then the rift closes and degrades into a scar
Pinging also @Velorien @Paperclipped

Why is Hazou so worried about this? Rifts are a common side effect of sealing failures and sealmasters know how to counter them. The Rift will be tiny and we can have a clone on standby to block it with a MEW the instant it opens (per SOP for rifts) We'll be literal miles away in our physical bodies if we need to run.

Jiriaya was almost completely completely unbothered by the notion. And this is a *small* Rift. Not something a bladehorror could come through.
Jiraiya laughed and leaned over to ruffle Hazō's hair. "Here's the thing: yeah, most of what Kagome does makes perfect sense...for him. There's a few differences between us, though. First, say a seal misfires and calls up one of those metal blade monsters you mentioned. The two of you need to run from it, throw MEWs around it, and seal it away. I can vaporize it with a Rasengan. Spreading fire-fungus? I drown it with Swamp of the Underworld. Cloud of pain pixies? I skewer them all with a Wild Lion's Mane jutsu. Fountain of acid? Shield myself in Needle Jizō. In the unlikely event that there's something I can't deal with, I toss some sparks in the air and within ninety seconds this whole field is swarming with ANBU, med-nin, and three experienced sealmasters to back me up.
Rifts can't realistically often kill everyone for miles around because then Hidden Villages could not exist with sealmasters. They're a common side effect of sealmasters working. There's an upper limit on how lethal rifts can be (the EN has seen hundreds if not thousands of rifts and not ended) they're likely not dangerous to get anyone working from miles away through SC.

Or does Hazou disagree with that assessment?
 
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Rifts can't realistically often kill everyone for miles around because then Hidden Villages could not exist with sealmasters. They're a common side effect of sealmasters working. There's an upper limit on how lethal rifts can be (the EN has seen hundreds if not thousands of rifts and not ended) they're likely not dangerous to get anyone working from miles away through SC.

Or does Hazou disagree with that assessment?
Jiraiya is very stupid, it is known

(More seriously, I have no idea how he had this opinion even ignoring the insta-kill rifts. Like, what about all the people in sealing failures who get killed back in time or morphed into an evil crab and shit? Rasengan ain't gonna save you from that. I have to assume he had some kind of control over what the failure would be.)
 
[X] [poll] I am willing to accept this level of risk to research Rift Runes

We've seen a half-dozen rifts, and J-man has opened loads and loads more. Some were dangerous, but none of them were cataclysmic. We can risk one more.

[X] [poll] I think we have other ideas that are worth exploring.

If targeting is the issue, let's make a graphosealing array that can act as an N-dimensional GPS. Then use it in Shima's backyardDog and to get us target coordinates for the rune.



Research
  • DoB tracks: Ninja-Radar, Explosiver
Explosiver? That really doesn't seem high-priority to any of the strategies we're persuing. Can you explain why you're prioritising it?
 
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This is an ANALOGY. It is NON-BINDING and used ONLY for the purpose of illustration. If you still have questions after reading this ANALOGY then simply forget the analogy completely and we'll try something else.

Think of it like a long-range howitzer. You can drop shells through forest canopy but not through a dome of invulnerable steel.
Oh, I see, so the Remote Explosive Rune shoots out a literal invisible projectile? That's so cool! We should see if we can stockpile them and then drop them on the Akatsuki. Are they visible in the chakra spectrum? How fast do they fly precisely? Are they made out of matter? Do they disturb the objects they shoot through, or are they also partially intangible? Also, what does that a-word you keep using mean?
 
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Jiraiya is very stupid, it is known

(More seriously, I have no idea how he had this opinion even ignoring the insta-kill rifts. Like, what about all the people in sealing failures who get killed back in time or morphed into an evil crab and shit? Rasengan ain't gonna save you from that. I have to assume he had some kind of control over what the failure would be.)
He was insane for being so nonchalant about the non-Rift sealing failures. And I have no idea how any ability of his to control sealing failures would control Hazou's

Still, instakill Rifts either don't exist or are practically unheard of for him to be talking like that.
Reverse Summon rifts are the tiny rifts made when you reverse summon, though it wasn't made clear if these actually leave scars or not.
What evidence do we have that this happens? The Scroll seems to bypass this entirely.
If targeting is the issue, let's make a graphosealing array that can act as an N-dimensional GPS. Then use it in Shima's backyardDog and to get us target coordinates for the rune.
Paper sealing seems almost certainly insufficient for the task. To the point where I am unwilling to spend the FP on the diff check. If we do it, this will need to be a rune.

Explosiver? That really doesn't seem high-priority to any of the strategies we're persuing. Can you explain why you're prioritising it?
Yeah, Remote Explosives are *almost* powerful enough to kill Akatsuki, and creating a Remote Explosiver is probably sufficient for the job. Hits at 110/130. That's enough to get anyone with a physical body. We set up 10-20 on skytowers surrounding the Rift and take it out. Even Konan might not be able to take the repeated hits.

Given the way the Remote Explosive came out I'm pretty sure we'll get multiple uses and independent hits.

That's our primary offensive Rune, I'm feeling. Explosivier is the next step for that. Offense on one track, defense on the other.
 
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Why is Hazou so worried about this?
Where does it say that Hazō is worried about this?

The Iron Rifts are the rifts in Iron (bladehorror one specifically)
I only recall one rift in Iron, the bladehorror one. What am I forgetting?

Oh, I see, so the Remote Explosive Rune shoots out a literal invisible projectile? That's so cool! We should see if we can stockpile them and then drop them on the Akatsuki. Are they visible in the chakra spectrum? How fast do they fly precisely? Are they made out of matter? Do they disturb the objects they shoot through, or are they also partially intangible? Also, what does that a-word you keep using mean?
I got all the way to the last sense, with steadily sagging enthusiasm for life, before realizing that you were joking. Well played. :p
 
Where does it say that Hazō is worried about this?

Hazō notes that this rune could be potentially extremely dangerous, as he has no control over whether the rune connects to a Path, the Out, or something else entirely. He would rather not accidentally connect a particularly dangerous/malevolent part of the Out to the Path where he lives…
Seems like every single sealing failure Rift has the same risk.
 
Also, what does that a-word you keep using mean?
I'm just guessing here based on my expert knowledge of etymology, but I believe 'analogy' refers to the study of anuses. Really strange word for EJ to use in the context of describing how the RER's projectiles work. I can't imagine why he would think the digestive system has anything to do with artillery.
 
I'm just guessing here based on my expert knowledge of etymology, but I believe 'analogy' refers to the study of anuses. Really strange word for EJ to use in the context of describing how the RER's projectiles work. I can't imagine why he would think the digestive system has anything to do with artillery.
Huh, I could have sworn he was talking about the study of accounting, and he wanted us to pivot to Marked for Economics!Quest.
 
Explosiver? That really doesn't seem high-priority to any of the strategies we're persuing. Can you explain why you're prioritising it?

If the TN for Remote Explosives were a wee bit higher they would pretty reliably drain combat resources for Jounin and Essies to dodge (even on a slight miss) without necessitating breaking the seal on more WMD tier stuff.

Looking at it, Remote Explosives is basically 60% of what we wanted out of the Solar Death Ray idea pile. Making the kaboom deadlier, have a bigger range, etc. would make it very viable as an aerial bombardment tactic.


As an aside...

It's still up in the air whether the best route forward for us is "Obliterate everyone at the rift site, yoink the rift, hide or destroy any runes, skeddadle", and this would greatly facilitate us doing that without involving Leaf.

Personally, I don't really trust Orochimaru to not act maximally in his own self interest when engaging with this plotline. What maximizes his self interest could change at any point, and probably includes "Close the Rift" or "Steal the Rift" or "Maintain unilateral control over the Rift", and its not clear to me he wouldn't immediately pivot to one of these plans if the threat landscape changes (I assume he will be preparing for all of them).

The most Marked for Death cliffhanger at the end of this whole Riftwar shebang would be Orochimaru strolling out of the rubble at the eleventh hour to fuck up the whole thing (from our perspective) in some way that makes him an element of the setting we would be forced to neutralize or engage with if we wanted to advance any necromancy goals.

Personally, I've sat through enough of those cliffhangers the last 700 or so chapters for one story. I'm fine with axing that potential plotline and derailing the Akatsuki stuff in one fell swoop. I think blasting the site to kingdom come, yoinking the Rift to some random location only we know about, and sprinting off into the distance with a shit eating grin plastered on our face would be a fine ending to this mega-arc indeed. We'll need to properly run the CBA there on the success odds and what needs to be done to raise them, but it seems to neatly solve all of our problems without some giant dramatic combat nonsense that relies post-facto on several of the most unreasonably unpleasant human beings I've ever seen acting rationally and reasonably about some random twerp's plans to raise the dead.

What's the temperature check on that one, playerbase?
 
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Huh, I could have sworn he was talking about the study of accounting, and he wanted us to pivot to Marked for Economics!Quest.
Ohh, we're going back to Economics!MfD? Nice! The QMs must be excited (except for @Paperclipped).
[Χ] Open a runecrafting school and earn boatloads of money off it
[Χ] Invite Sasori to said runecrafting school
[Χ] Invite Ami to said runecrafting school

What's the temperature check on that one, playerbase?
I'm all for the yoink and run strategy.
 
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