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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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strange_person said:
Unless the solid core has incredible viscosity / tensile strength, you'd get toroidal flow around the edges, producing outward jets at ground level. More like sandblasting until it gets a chance to thaw, and probably less total cryogenic-liquid flooding than the original EM nuke, but I'm pretty sure there'd still be some.
Wherever particles of air-ice bounce off the core's surface, make it back out to the edge of the effect, and encounter normal-temperature materials, they'll flash-boil. If the resulting explosion reduces net incoming air flux in that vicinity, thus allowing more bounces to reach the edge, that would mean exhaust jets are self-reinforcing, so it'd be less stable than it seems based on an assumption of negligible turbulence.
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Hmm. You raise a good point, and I don't know if this is practical to figure out without some difficult CFD work, but I also think there's a flaw in this analysis.

I don't think its quite correct to model the material in the AoE as a fluid - at best, its a powder. It's inexorably a supercooled gas that should instantly freeze as soon as it actually touches anything. In fact, after a little searching, it turns out that a air molecule collides with its neighbors more frequently than I was expecting, so even under sonic flow conditions at 50 kelvin you might be dealing with a very finely powdered snow after a few meters.

I think any interaction of inflowing gas will tend to result in combination, not flow - two opposing gas streams will more-or-less stick together into dust with the net momentum of each. This effect will especially interfere with any material that tries to escape near a border - that is the region where the inrushing supercooled gas will be the finest, and so most readily able to frost onto a surface, and the momentum of that stream is pointing directly inwards.
 
Okay, if Chakra signatures are out what about a corresponding paper seal that emits something specific that the rune looks for?

Being able to restrict the movement of enemies in an aoe would be fairly gamechanging.

Also, have we tested if a summon can bring an activated rune back to the seventh path? That way we avoid having to infuse one on the seventh path, and that opens the door to summoning a puppy that has an already activated rune, bypassing the slow movement and long activation time restrictions. Then we could really go all in on combat runes.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Where is the knife here? We proposed an examination, not Oro cutting into Nobs. Nobs just assumed we meant that. We literally never said it.


Am I missing something? Is the implication that he's going to have to cut Nobs up to do this? Examination does not have connotations of surgery IMO.
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Sir Stompy said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped is it possible for us to get a quick ruling on this before voting closes? I think that there might be a disconnect between player expectations and Hazou expectations regarding what an "examination" is.


My understanding is that it's non-invasive, non-surgical. Is that correct?
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Ordinarily, a medical examination or even an analysis of someone's ninjutsu would be non-invasive. However, Orochimaru has a certain reputation, and thanks to the various research projects of Orochimaru's that Noburi has studied in detail, Noburi is well aware that bloodline research tends to be... invasive.
eaglejarl said:
He cocked his head. "He fights with that Water Whip jutsu, yes? Is he able to exert his bloodline through it?"
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Velorien said:
Just an examination, that's all, to see if he can adapt any ninjutsu to work with your Bloodline Limit so you can use them through the Water Whip.
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Since it's well-established that this would be a bloodline-related inquiry, perhaps Noburi assumed the worst.
 
coldcutconvict said:
Rattling the Snake.
  • Questions.
  • In 200 years, what does Orochimaru think the EN ruled by Konoha would look like?
    • What problems would persist?
    • What would come next?
      • Safer, healthier population.
        • More geniuses born and living to adulthood. More rare biological cases.
        • Less conflict.
        • More education.
      • Better for all humans to have chakra or none?
  • Do people choose to stay human if we make ourselves better?
    • We call Orochimaru uncle and he does not correct us. Is male his chosen self expression or does he respond from indifference?
  • How does an immortal think of morals?
    • Will all immortals trend to a single perfected form?
    • In an infinite universe, not knowing how many encounters you will have with other immortal groups and not knowing eventually you will meet someone who has had more time to gather strength - what morals make sense to present to the world, knowing they have considered the same question?
    • Beyond where or when or in what body, to see clearer we have to see beyond the circumstances of our birth.
  • Do not infuse runes on the 7th Path.
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I prefer this vote actually. Why can't I vote for it ? It needs to start with the usual [ X ] pattern (no spaces).
 
[X] Rattling the Snake.
To be clear, this was T_of_A's plan, not mine

  • Questions.
  • In 200 years, what does Orochimaru think the EN ruled by Konoha would look like?
    • What problems would persist?
    • What would come next?
      • Safer, healthier population.
        • More geniuses born and living to adulthood. More rare biological cases.
        • Less conflict.
        • More education.
      • Better for all humans to have chakra or none?
  • Do people choose to stay human if we make ourselves better?
    • We call Orochimaru uncle and he does not correct us. Is male his chosen self expression or does he respond from indifference?
  • How does an immortal think of morals?
    • Will all immortals trend to a single perfected form?
    • In an infinite universe, not knowing how many encounters you will have with other immortal groups and not knowing eventually you will meet someone who has had more time to gather strength - what morals make sense to present to the world, knowing they have considered the same question?
    • Beyond where or when or in what body, to see clearer we have to see beyond the circumstances of our birth.
  • Do not infuse runes on the 7th Path.
 
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Zampano said:
[X] Rattling the Snake.

  • Questions.
  • In 200 years, what does Orochimaru think the EN ruled by Konoha would look like?
    • What problems would persist?
    • What would come next?
      • Safer, healthier population.
        • More geniuses born and living to adulthood. More rare biological cases.
        • Less conflict.
        • More education.
      • Better for all humans to have chakra or none?
  • Do people choose to stay human if we make ourselves better?
    • We call Orochimaru uncle and he does not correct us. Is male his chosen self expression or does he respond from indifference?
  • How does an immortal think of morals?
    • Will all immortals trend to a single perfected form?
    • In an infinite universe, not knowing how many encounters you will have with other immortal groups and not knowing eventually you will meet someone who has had more time to gather strength - what morals make sense to present to the world, knowing they have considered the same question?
    • Beyond where or when or in what body, to see clearer we have to see beyond the circumstances of our birth.
  • Do not infuse runes on the 7th Path.
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While I really like the overall theme, the execution needs work. I'm not voting now, but I hope a better-cooked version will show up next cycle.


I kinda want to merge this with "what advice would you give for maximum uplift across the infinite future?"
Then move into a discussion of the risks and advantages of immortal peers(they could be hostile, or they could help solve X-risky problems and make you more safe). How can we arrange things so that people aren't forced into conflict? What does Oro think a stable future of immortals would look like?(or the closest achievable thing?)

Remember, he seemed down with Nagato's plans before he learned that he to would be brainwashed. I think this will get us... interesting answers.
 
Buggy said:
PROJECT: Ice Cube
S-class barrier rune, a treatise
By Buggy B. Buggarious
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Beautiful write-up Buggy.

Just one question: How does one exit the interior of a defensive Ice Cube?

Or I guess I have another related question: How would we ever test if the method to create an interior safe space works?
 
Rafin said:
Just one question: How does one exit the interior of a defensive Ice Cube?

Or I guess I have another related question: How would we ever test if the method to create an interior safe space works?
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I assume the Rune would have a process to follow for safe deactivation, no?

The main issue with using it as a village defence would be that ninja have to come in and out in times of peace and since the Rune takes a while to produce a useful barrier, it has to be turned on in advance as by the time enemies are threatening the village its too late.
 
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Crunbum said:
I assume the Rune would have a process to follow for safe deactivation, no?
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How? Buggy already explained that deactivation would cause a massive explosion. And there is no way to check who is outside. And that's if one goes for the on-off switch version.

A hypothetical stationary base using this defense would be located in the middle of a devastated wasteland. And after the first few casualties, enemies would know to stay well away and wait for inevitable scheduled deactivations before attacking ASAP.

Also, my question about safe testing remains. We don't know if the pressures created by the snowball formation can be withstood by the included(?) air dome.

Strike that. Shadow Clones FTW.
 
Rafin said:
How? Buggy already explained that deactivation would cause a massive explosion. And there is no way to check who is outside. And that's if one goes for the on-off switch version.

A hypothetical stationary base using this defense would be located in the middle of a devastated wasteland. And after the first few casualties, enemies would know to stay well away and wait for inevitable scheduled deactivations before attacking ASAP.
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An abrupt deactivation would, yes. I imagine there is a viable process to gradually unfreeze the air that isn't volatile but takes time.

Or... we could opt into a permanent duration by having the Rune feature a stable, permanent entrance that can only be traversed with specific equipment and only at a glacial pace with no space to dodge, making it into an easy killbox to kill any intruder through.
 
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Buggy said:
and the momentum of that stream is pointing directly inwards.
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Unless it's deflected upward by debris on the ground. In that case, you could get a hailstone, knocked loose from the core by the sandblasting, rolling outward through a shallow trench of freeze-dried dirt, plucked off a ridge at the edge of the effect by the flow (as you describe) and launched back inward at a slight upward angle, deflected downward by inflow from above and gravity, then bouncing off the core to start the cycle again. Rocks in the tumbler keep getting bigger until they're heavy enough to not be launched by the inflow, or fast and cross-sectionally dense enough to escape the AoE into warm air and explode, in either case potentially contributing to a steeper ridge of debris.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
The next thought is that other bloodlines operate the same way, seals on smaller fragments of the TA, or other entities, designed by the Sage, yet that can't be completely right.
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I am worried that this part might annoy Oro. It speculates in full ignorance about a field whose basics can probably be read in a library, or at least are known to most medical researchers (below Kabuto).

Maybe I am wrong. But the point is that we don't know if I'm wrong, because we/Hazō have done zero preliminary reading on the subject.
Crunbum said:
An abrupt deactivation would, yes. I imagine there is a viable process to gradually unfreeze the air that isn't volatile but takes time.
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Maybe. But such a capability sounds like a much harder research project and much more complicated rune. Part of the appeal of this rune is how much it does despite its simplicity when it comes to the base effect. The more complicated it gets the more viable it is to create an alternative rune that more precisely does what we want without all the unwanted side effects. Like a rune that causes more specific widespread destruction not centered around the rune itself, plus a more durable air dome rune.
 
Rafin said:
Maybe. But such a capability sounds like a much harder research project and much more complicated rune. Part of the appeal of this rune is how much it does despite its simplicity when it comes to the base effect. The more complicated it gets the more viable it is to create an alternative rune that more precisely does what we want without all the unwanted side effects. Like a rune that causes more specific widespread destruction not centered around the rune itself, plus a more durable air dome rune.
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Fair enough. I don't think Air Dome-based solutions are viable in comparison, though. The Ice Cube is extremely tough and its extreme self-repair capability is crucial to its function - any solid barrier may by overcome by powerful attacks - but one that repairs itself and quickly enough to patch up any holes is immensely more useful for that alone.

I'd expect it to be far harder to meaningfully get through than even a runic version of the Jounin-tier Fourfold Violet Barrier seal, which I imagine would already be enough to keep Akatsuki out via sheer durability, so long as it wasn't setup too much power for sheer area.
 
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Rafin said:
How? Buggy already explained that deactivation would cause a massive explosion. And there is no way to check who is outside. And that's if one goes for the on-off switch version.
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Okay so, it is slightly ambiguous in the wording of EM.

It is not clear if turning off EM removes the forced temperature manipulation, or forces the surrounding to return to normal temperature and then removes the temperature manipulation.

It is a subtle difference that would be very significant in practice. Merely removing the forced-temperature effect leaves you with a big ball of air-ice sitting on surroundings which are already very cold, so you wouldn't even get a minor vapor explosion or anything. It'd just sit there for hours/days/weeks, slowly sublimating until its gone.

If EM forces the surroundings to return to normal temperatures, you get a explosion. Even if it's gradual, you still pretty much get a explosion because the ice will more-or-less sublimate all at the same time, although different components will do so at different temperatures so maaaaybe you get lucky and get a smaller explosion that shatters the ice and forces it out of the AoE, sparing your the brunt of it.

For a conceptually simple (and thus easy to build) way to make a safe on/off switch, i'd implement a gradient. Turn it on, and over N time the AoE gradually falls in temperature, starting at the center and working outwards. Turn it off, and the reverse happens from the outside-in. This prevents both a destructive start and a destructive stop.
 
Buggy said:
If EM forces the surroundings to return to normal temperatures, you get a explosion. Even if it's gradual, you still pretty much get a explosion because the ice will more-or-less sublimate all at the same time, although different components will do so at different temperatures so maaaaybe you get lucky and get a smaller explosion that shatters the ice and forces it out of the AoE, sparing your the brunt of it.
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Couldn't the shutdown process of the Rune just involve very gradually shrinking its area of influence if that were the case? Or does the frozen area retreating a milimeter at a time still produce a significant explosion?
 
Buggy said:
It is not clear if turning off EM removes the forced temperature manipulation, or forces the surrounding to return to normal temperature and then removes the temperature manipulation
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EM affects the temperature of the gas phase. No effect on liquids or solids. Turning it off just stops it from affecting more gas.

It's a magic field that automatically sets the air temp to the target temp in the affected Zone.

Casting a hot version on a Zone of air ice wouldn't cause the explosion described in your write up, because it wouldn't affect anything in the solid phase, just whatever was sublimating at that moment.

It would speed up the return to normal temps for sure. But no nuke level explosion.
 
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Vote closed
  • Voting
    • Scheduled vote count started by eaglejarl on Feb 27, 2024 at 7:29 AM, finished with 247 posts and 17 votes.
    [actionplan] [hazotraining]
    • 16
      34
      [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Callig and Loot
      [X] A Conversation with Uncle Oro
      [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Minimum Callig for RRB unstagnation
      [X] Training Plan (Kei): YOLO
      [X] Armageddon Initiative
      [X] Training Plan (Hazou): We're Taking These With Us
      [X] Action Plan: Cowardice and Ambition
      [X] Action Plan: Octocats and Aunts and Uncles, Oh My!
      [X] Lore Update
      [X] Snowflake Interlude
      [X] Ino Interlude
      [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Callig and Loot
      [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Minimum Callig for RRB unstagnation
      [X] Lore Update
      [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Callig and Loot
      [X] Training Plan (Kei): Things We Were Definitely Going to Level Anyway
      [X] Training Plan (Kei): Things We Were Definitely Going to Level Anyway
      [X] Training Plan (Kei): None
      [X] Training Plan (Kei): YOLO
      [X] Rattling the Snake.
      [X] Training Plan (Hazou): Callig and Loot
      [X] A Conversation with Uncle Oro
    • 3
      [X] [Action Plan] Snuncle Knows Best
    • 4
      [X] [Hazo Training] Skills that matter
      [X] [Hazo Training] None
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  • Voting
    • Adhoc vote count started by Sir Stompy on Feb 28, 2024 at 7:08 AM, finished with 249 posts and 17 votes.
    Click to expand...


    Just tossing the unstructured tally up there. The structured tally is a total mess 🗿
     
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    Sir Stompy said:
    EM affects the temperature of the gas phase. No affect on liquids or solids. Turning it off just stops it from affecting more gas.
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    Ah, alright. I couldn't work it out from the jutsu doc, but if its only setting the temperature of gaseous air then you can't easily get a explosion.

    Although... you might still be able to if you set the temperature really high. Start with a ball of air-ice, turn on a HotHotHot rune. It heats the air greatly, and if its enough to trigger a small explosion on the outer surface, that will serve to pulverize air ice and mix it thoroughly with gasses... gasses which, should they be in the AOE, are permanently locked to high temperature. So that pulverized ice also vaporizes. Which makes a larger explosion, pulverizing more ice...
     
    Sir Stompy said:
    EM affects the temperature of the gas phase. No affect on liquids or solids. Turning it off just stops it from affecting more gas.

    It's a magic field that automatically sets the air temp to the target temp in the affected Zone.

    Casting a hot version on a Zone of air ice wouldn't cause the explosion described in your write up, because it wouldn't affect anything in the solid phase, just whatever was sublimating at that moment.

    It would speed up the return to normal temps for sure. But no nuke level explosion.
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    Though, a rune may not necessarily behave the same as the jutsu
     
    Rafin said:
    I am worried that this part might annoy Oro. It speculates in full ignorance about a field whose basics can probably be read in a library, or at least are known to most medical researchers (below Kabuto).

    Maybe I am wrong. But the point is that we don't know if I'm wrong, because we/Hazō have done zero preliminary reading on the subject
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    I am highly skeptical that anything about the biology of bloodlines is available in a public library. However, I do agree this isn't necessarily the strongest part of my plan. Ah well.

    Just looking forward, perhaps 36 minutes before voting closes isn't the best time to post feedback if you want it incorporated into the plan.
    Buggy said:
    Ah, alright. I couldn't work it out from the jutsu doc, but if its only setting the temperature of gaseous air then you can't easily get a explosion.

    Although... you might still be able to if you set the temperature really high. Start with a ball of air-ice, turn on a HotHotHot rune. It heats the air greatly, and if its enough to trigger a small explosion on the outer surface, that will serve to pulverize air ice and mix it thoroughly with gasses... gasses which, should they be in the AOE, are permanently locked to high temperature. So that pulverized ice also vaporizes. Which makes a larger explosion, pulverizing more ice...
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    I agree it would be substantial, but it's now slow enough that I don't think we're looking at a nuke-equivalent explosion. Something on the order of a few dozen tons of TNT seems more reasonable.
     
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