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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Buggy said:
I like that idea, and you raise a good point that this is similar enough to the prior discussion that it risks 'were you even listening' from Itachi. So, establish our credentials, and then try to re-open the discussion on the basis of "now that you see that Leaf wouldn't killbox me without good reason..."?
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I dunno about the specific killbox point since I dunno how much Tsunade has been read in on dragons. But the general idea yeah
 
Buggy said:
I like that idea, and you raise a good point that this is similar enough to the prior discussion that it risks 'were you even listening' from Itachi. So, establish our credentials, and then try to re-open the discussion on the basis of "now that you see that Leaf wouldn't killbox me without good reason..."?
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Which is why the first plan works so well in your plan. It's a direct response.

"I wanna join so take us 'hostage'". And if he can't/doesn't want to then he'll say so.

The others are more iffy and likely need more fleshing out. Like referring back to why he can't just give us a mission, say he can because (second option), though we might be wrong. And if that doesn't work for him maybe (third option).
 
We could also tell hazou how to specifically refute itachi earlier specific objections, beyond just saying we have demonstrated our credentials. Although I dunno if it is worth including that. If people want ideas for refutations let me know and I'll brainstorm some
 
acidshill said:
[X] Action Plan: Politely Decline
Word Count: <300
  • Decline Itachi's Offer
    • Our work on the dragonwar is too important
    • Offer to arrange parley with Enma.
      • He considers the dragonwar an existential threat. All options are on the table
    • Ask Itachi to talk to Karanium about approaching the Arachnids
  • Debrief with Tsunade
    • Tell her everything about the meeting with Itachi and anything she wants to know about necromancy
    • If she suspects/accuses us of treason
      • We are not willing, and were never willing, to betray Leaf to join the Akatsuki
      • We wanted to
        • Not get killed by Itachi
        • Give a sufficiently good reason to decline without getting killed
        • Get information about Akatsuki's short and long-term plans without getting killed
  • Check what notes Itachi took
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Updated plan to remove the delay before talking to Tsunade, which seems like a bad idea to me, and to add @_The_Bomb's requests (please vote for me).
 
Buggy said:
@@Left-Hand Mutant, would you support that still? Iron Nerve and not Lithosealing?
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I'm not sure, but it looks like you were trying to do a user tag manually?

If not, ignore this:
You can simplify your life by just typing '@' and then someone's username with no spaces, and the site should start prompting you with completions. E.g. if I type just "@eaglej", that's enough for EagleJarl to rise to the top of the suggested users.
 
faflec said:
HAZOU: Also, Elemental Mastery is a WMD and Asuma destroyed Isan.
KEI: *facepalm*
MARI: *sigh*
AMI: o_o
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Good point, phrasing adjusted:
Inferno Vulpix said:
[X] Action Plan: I Am Once Again Asking For Your Diplomatic Support
  • Regretfully decline. You're more needed for the Dragonwar.
    • If Itachi decides to kill you: calmly reassert your importance for the Dragonwar. You've already been crucial for stopping fast degradation (HOWS). Last resort: reveal lithosealing.
  • Immediate debriefing with Tsunade: Share everything except what's necromancy-related. Itachi apologized, attempted recruitment based on supposed ideological compatibility, you escaped by arguing Dragonwar needs.
    • Schedule another meeting a few hours later. You have ideas regarding why Akatsuki wanted dimensionalism.
    • Insist on needing time to prepare, to run some preliminary analyses. Otherwise the whole thing'll sound incoherent.
  • Top-security meeting with Kei, Ami, Mari.
    • Brief them on everything that just happened, and also lithosealing.
    • Three options:
      1. Try to out-race them. May still be viable: if you can crack rift-moving, you can steal it and replace it with a different one. If done covertly, they may not even realize there's been foul play: just the universe being cruel.
        • ...but you're not sure you'll be fast enough anymore, and they could have the rift guarded.
      2. Try to kill them. Lithosealing should allow novel superweapons, and with sufficient intel on their movements Leaf's forces could in theory assassinate each Akatsuki member before any of them know to retaliate.
        • But the death of Akatsuki would likely spell the end of AMITY, even if we resurrected a bunch of Leaf S-Rankers in their stead.
      3. Let Akatsuki monopolise the rift. Unfortunately, they don't seem inclined to resurrect Jiraiya.
        • With sufficient political manoeuvring, could we make it in their interests to resurrect a Kage for each country?
    • However, options one and two require:
      1. You to recover faster. Requires Tsunade and/or Orochimaru's focused attention.
      2. Leaf's buy-in. Can't kill Akatsuki without Leaf's S-rankers, and likely can't covertly steal the rift either (they likely placed guards/spies there).
      3. Your focused attention over a multi-month period. It's nontrivial: you have many different projects on your plate, and Clan Head duties and random smaller disasters (Hagoromo, suspicions about your culpability) don't help.
        • Ami: Can she handle that? Ensure over the next half-a-year minimum, you'd be solely focused on beating Akatsuki, with at most Dragonwar as distraction. Not to the extent of social isolation, that'd degrade your performance. But ensure there aren't fires only Hazou can put out, and ensure we never waste time pushing non-essential goals.
        • As part of that, Hazou could temporarily step down as Clan Head in favour of Noburi, even if it makes us look incredibly suspicious.
  • Meet Tsunade again. Optimize with Mari/Ami/Kei, take some of them along if that'd help.
    • Debrief her on the necromancy research, the implications of Akatsuki taking it, and lithosealing.
    • Outline your anti-Akatsuki options, and what you and Leaf would need to succeed.
    • If she's furious we haven't shared necromancy before: we weren't sure it'd even work, wanted a working prototype first (Rift Seal 0).
    • If she insists we destroy the rift: Agree it's a sensible precaution, and you'd develop a seal to for that, to use as a last resort if Akatsuki'd win otherwise... but plead with her to give us the chance to try.
(Non-binding suggestion: Skip the clan meeting, jump directly to the second Tsunade meeting.)


I very much like the structure and framing of this plan... but I dislike the deicide. I don't believe that AMITY can survive the death of Akatsuki, and I don't believe that Akatsuki will create a monstrous horrid dystopia if they get Pain back. I think, rather, that having Akatsuki alive is the best outcome for the world right now, because world peace is exactly what we need and if we destroy it here it's going to be all the harder to get it back (and it was already a perfect storm of maximally-seized opportunities the first go-around).

So I'm forking it, with the bulk of the changes being in the Kei/Ami/Mari meeting and the options we present. Instead of trying to drive killing Akatsuki as the ideal path forwards, I instead propose attempting to get Jiraiya back through diplomatic means. It seems very plausible to me, for instance, that Akatsuki could find themselves in a position where the best way to maintain the stability of AMITY in light of Pain's resurrection is to prove to its members that resurrection can bring value to them as well, by returning to each village one of their most beloved heroes. Killing Akatsuki is still left in as an option, along with continuing the necromancy race, but with my own assessment of the pros and cons instead.

Overall, this plan has us reject the Akatsuki offer and then work closely with Leaf, either to stop Akatsuki or to let them win in a way that gets Jiraiya resurrected. Not getting Jiraiya resurrected is not an option. That is the main goal of this plan and further edits will be in service of that goal wherever possible.
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I figure these three are already read in on pretty much everything else that's relevant, so it's just the Itachi conversation and lithosealing that they need to know about.
 
Okay, i've reworded my plan, it should work a bit more like a conversation and continue from the earlier conversation. The content itself has not changed.
 
@Inferno Vulpix Noumero A common suggestion to both your plans:
Immediate debriefing with Tsunade: Share everything except what's necromancy-related. Itachi apologized, attempted recruitment based on supposed ideological compatibility, you escaped by arguing Dragonwar needs.
  • Schedule another meeting a few hours later. You have ideas regarding why Akatsuki wanted dimensionalism.
  • Insist on needing time to prepare, to run some preliminary analyses. Otherwise the whole thing'll sound incoherent.
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I would highly recommend a "If she orders us, skip to the second meeting", or something similar, so that we aren't caught too flatfooted.
 
Current tally - its extremely close!
Adhoc vote count started by MMKII on Oct 13, 2023 at 5:24 PM, finished with 384 posts and 48 votes.
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The first time we proposed amity to itachi at the shrine. Itachi declined it. Yet now he supports amity. I wonder if we could use that to get past his skepticism for our "outlandish" ideas. Or whether bringing it up would backfire
 
acidshill said:
Currently this plan is at 516 words. If you cut a few out you can get under 500 and the XP penalty will be less bad.
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@Inferno Vulpix: <500 words. Might I suggest you add more than just Ami to putting out fires (see bolded)?
  • Regretfully decline. You're more needed for the Dragonwar.
    • If Itachi decides to kill you: calmly reassert your importance for the Dragonwar. You've already been crucial for stopping fast degradation (HOWS). Last resort: reveal lithosealing.
  • Immediate debriefing with Tsunade: Share everything except what's necromancy-related. Itachi apologized, attempted recruitment based on supposed ideological compatibility, you escaped by arguing Dragonwar needs.
    • Schedule another meeting a few hours later. You have ideas regarding why Akatsuki wanted dimensionalism.
    • Insist on needing time to prepare, to run some preliminary analyses. Otherwise the whole thing'll sound incoherent.
  • Top-security meeting with Kei, Ami, Mari.
    • Brief them on everything that just happened, and also lithosealing.
    • Three options:
      1. Try to out-race them. May still be viable: if you can crack rift-moving, you can steal it and replace it with a different one. If done covertly, they may not even realize there's been foul play: just the universe being cruel.
        • ...but you're not sure you'll be fast enough anymore, and they could have the rift guarded.
      2. Try to kill them. Lithosealing should allow novel superweapons, and with sufficient intel on their movements Leaf could theoretically assassinate each Akatsuki member before they can react.
        • But the death of Akatsuki would likely spell the end of AMITY, even if we resurrected a bunch of Leaf S-Rankers in their stead.
      3. Let Akatsuki monopolise the rift. Unfortunately, they don't seem inclined to resurrect Jiraiya.
        • With sufficient political manoeuvring, could we make it in their interests to resurrect a Kage for each country?
    • However, options one and two require:
      1. You to recover faster. Requires Tsunade and/or Orochimaru's focused attention.
      2. Leaf's buy-in. Can't kill Akatsuki without Leaf's S-rankers, and likely can't covertly steal the rift either (they likely placed guards/spies there).
      3. Your focused attention over a multi-month period. It's nontrivial: you have many different projects on your plate, and Clan Head duties and random smaller disasters (Hagoromo, suspicions about your culpability) don't help.
        • Ami: Can you handle that? Ensure over the next half-a-year minimum, you'd be solely focused on beating Akatsuki, with at most Dragonwar as distraction. Not to the extent of social isolation, that'd degrade your performance. But put the fires out so we never waste time pushing non-essential goals.
        • As part of that, Hazou could temporarily step down as Clan Head in favour of Noburi, even if it makes us look incredibly suspicious.
  • Meet Tsunade again. Optimize with Mari/Ami/Kei, take some of them along if that'd help.
    • Debrief her on the necromancy research, the implications of Akatsuki taking it, and lithosealing.
    • Outline your anti-Akatsuki options, and what you and Leaf would need to succeed.
    • If she's furious we haven't shared necromancy before: we weren't sure it'd even work, wanted a working prototype first (Rift Seal 0).
    • If she insists we destroy the rift: Agree it's a sensible precaution, and you'll develop a last-resort seal if necessary... but plead with her to give us the chance to try.
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Buggy said:
Okay, someone on discord suggested something like the following:

We start by opening with "we've rediscovered a powerful sealing art that can help". We use this to convince Itachi to invite Ami to the discussion.
If we manage to invite Ami, then we reveal Lithosealing in full to her (and also Itachi, who is standing right there), and work with her to optimize us going with Akatsuki (and also, not getting nabbed by Itachi for Lithosealing).
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Did this go anywhere, or would that cost a precious vote to implement?
 
Buggy said:
Okay, someone on discord suggested something like the following:

We start by opening with "we've rediscovered a powerful sealing art that can help". We use this to convince Itachi to invite Ami to the discussion.
If we manage to invite Ami, then we reveal Lithosealing in full to her (and also Itachi, who is standing right there), and work with her to optimize us going with Akatsuki (and also, not getting nabbed by Itachi for Lithosealing).
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Buggy said:
No one except you mentioned any preference or opinion on it.
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Well, doesn't hurt to ask.

@Left-Hand Mutant You mentioned you strongly oppose sharing Lithosealing. Would the above be acceptable or would it make you unvote the plan?
@Ishtar You mentioned that you would drop support for the two [No] plans if Lithosealing were included. Would such an addition suffice for that?
 
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faflec said:
@Inferno Vulpix Noumero A common suggestion to both your plans:

I would highly recommend a "If she orders us, skip to the second meeting", or something similar, so that we aren't caught too flatfooted.
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faflec said:
@Inferno Vulpix: <500 words. Might I suggest you add more than just Ami to putting out fires (see bolded)?
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Combined all this together into a revision that includes the Tsunade failsafe, broadens the putting-out-fires request, and keeps the plan beneath 500 words:
Inferno Vulpix said:
[X] Action Plan: I Am Once Again Asking For Your Diplomatic Support
  • Regretfully decline. You're more needed for the Dragonwar.
    • If Itachi decides to kill you: calmly reassert your importance for the Dragonwar. You've already been crucial for stopping fast degradation (HOWS). Last resort: reveal lithosealing.
  • Immediate debriefing with Tsunade: Share everything except what's necromancy-related. Itachi apologized, attempted recruitment based on supposed ideological compatibility, you escaped by arguing Dragonwar needs.
    • Schedule another meeting a few hours later. You have ideas regarding why Akatsuki wanted dimensionalism.
    • Insist on needing time to prepare, to run some preliminary analyses. Otherwise the whole thing'll sound incoherent.
      • If she orders us, skip to the second meeting.
  • Top-security meeting with Kei, Ami, Mari.
    • Brief them on everything that just happened, and also lithosealing.
    • Three options:
      1. Try to out-race them. May still be viable: if you can crack rift-moving, you can steal it and replace it with a different one. If done covertly, they may not even realize there's been foul play: just the universe being cruel.
        • ...but you're not sure you'll be fast enough anymore, and they could have the rift guarded.
      2. Try to kill them. Lithosealing should allow novel superweapons, and with sufficient intel on their movements Leaf's forces could in theory assassinate each Akatsuki member before any of them know to retaliate.
        • But the death of Akatsuki would likely spell the end of AMITY, even if we resurrected a bunch of Leaf S-Rankers in their stead.
      3. Let Akatsuki monopolise the rift. Unfortunately, they don't seem inclined to resurrect Jiraiya.
        • With sufficient political manoeuvring, could we make it in their interests to resurrect a Kage for each country?
    • However, options one and two require:
      1. You to recover faster. Requires Tsunade and/or Orochimaru's focused attention.
      2. Leaf's buy-in. Can't kill Akatsuki without Leaf's S-rankers, and likely can't covertly steal the rift either (they likely placed guards/spies there).
      3. Your focused attention over a multi-month period. It's nontrivial: you have many different projects on your plate, and Clan Head duties and random smaller disasters (Hagoromo, suspicions about your culpability) don't help.
        • Can you three handle that? Ensure over the next half-a-year minimum, you'd be solely focused on beating Akatsuki, with at most Dragonwar as distraction. Not to the extent of social isolation, that'd degrade your performance. But put the fires out so we never waste time pushing non-essential goals.
        • As part of that, Hazou could temporarily step down as Clan Head in favour of Noburi, even if it makes us look incredibly suspicious.
  • Meet Tsunade again. Optimize with Mari/Ami/Kei, take some of them along if that'd help.
    • Debrief her on the necromancy research, the implications of Akatsuki taking it, and lithosealing.
    • Outline your anti-Akatsuki options, and what you and Leaf would need to succeed.
    • If she's furious we haven't shared necromancy before: we weren't sure it'd even work, wanted a working prototype first.
    • If she insists we destroy the rift: Agree it's a sensible precaution, and you'll develop a last-resort seal if necessary... but plead with her to give us the chance to try.
(Non-binding suggestion: Skip the clan meeting, jump directly to the second Tsunade meeting.)


I very much like the structure and framing of this plan... but I dislike the deicide. I don't believe that AMITY can survive the death of Akatsuki, and I don't believe that Akatsuki will create a monstrous horrid dystopia if they get Pain back. I think, rather, that having Akatsuki alive is the best outcome for the world right now, because world peace is exactly what we need and if we destroy it here it's going to be all the harder to get it back (and it was already a perfect storm of maximally-seized opportunities the first go-around).

So I'm forking it, with the bulk of the changes being in the Kei/Ami/Mari meeting and the options we present. Instead of trying to drive killing Akatsuki as the ideal path forwards, I instead propose attempting to get Jiraiya back through diplomatic means. It seems very plausible to me, for instance, that Akatsuki could find themselves in a position where the best way to maintain the stability of AMITY in light of Pain's resurrection is to prove to its members that resurrection can bring value to them as well, by returning to each village one of their most beloved heroes. Killing Akatsuki is still left in as an option, along with continuing the necromancy race, but with my own assessment of the pros and cons instead.

Overall, this plan has us reject the Akatsuki offer and then work closely with Leaf, either to stop Akatsuki or to let them win in a way that gets Jiraiya resurrected. Not getting Jiraiya resurrected is not an option. That is the main goal of this plan and further edits will be in service of that goal wherever possible.
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