Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Korporati · Oct 13, 2023

Ishtar said:
[X] EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU! DON'T DUMB IT DOWN INTO SOME VAGUE SHIT! EXPLAIN FORBIDDEN LORE TO ME RIGHT NOW OR I'LL LITERALLY FUCKING KILL YOU! WHAT THE FUCK IS THE TENFOLD ABOMINATION? WHAT THE FUCK IS PRIMAL MALICE? DON'T DUMB IT DOWN OR I'LL FUCKING KILL YOU

At this point, I'm convinced the QM actually haven't made the forbidden lore in question and is only throwing breadcrumbs to appear it exist while stalling everytime we asked for it in-game

Hahaha gotcha @Velorien @eaglejarl @Paperclipped

acidshill · Oct 13, 2023

Korporati said:
At this point, I'm convinced the QM actually haven't made the forbidden lore in question and is only throwing breadcrumbs to appear it exist while stalling everytime we asked for it in-game

I assign this... 30% probability. I feel like there have been instances in the past where we very plausibly could have gotten some real juicy lore and circumstances conspired to somehow ensure that we got nothing more than vague hints. (Remember the conversation with Ma and Pa about lore that got voted in but never written?)

JustForThis · Oct 13, 2023

roobee said:
why would revealing we are confident we can make lithoseals remove more agency than hazou just saying he is a great sealmaster and has ES leveled and downloaded the great seal? especially since itachi is more interested in resurrection than great seal.
same question to all the other people who oppose C

edit:
an idea. we mention we are willing to spend a FP/aspects to convince itachi to let ami in, if it comes down to rolls. maybe even spend some XP on FPs

Lithosealing is a type of sealing, applicable to a superset of things normal sealing is, which explicitly includes the portal. Revealing lithosealing makes Itachi need to decide if it's something that we could use to control the portal faster than Sasori can.

He's not going to gamble that we can't (especially after he bumps his estimation of our skill up enough to explain developing an entirely new method of sealing), or that it can but we won't (because he asked so nicely).

He's going to resolve the threat by killing/kidnapping us.

DanZapman · Oct 13, 2023

Also, should we declare we discussed Itachi's embarrassing childhood stories with Sasuke at some point prior? It'd be funny and maybe socially useful.

roobee · Oct 13, 2023

Also the time about Noburi teasing forbidden lore of summoning stunt (and I think saying forbidden to teach it for reasons) but we didn't learn much juicy when we learn summoning

Edit:

JustForThis said:
He's going to resolve the threat by killing/kidnapping us.

…or by us willingly collaborating under oversight. Which is what the plan is trying to do. What are we gonna do, close the rift when sasori is right next to us?
Oh, I think you are concerned of where we convince itachi of the threat. But we don't convince him or Tsunade to let us help akatsuki. And you are against leaving leaf without kage permission. Right?
Edit2: but wouldn't akatsuki just kill leaf if the rift is messed with?

Buggy · Oct 13, 2023

[X] Yes
[X] Action Plan: No, but Yes
[X] An Interview With Akatsuki
[X] Action Plan: AMITY Ascendant
[X] Marry Ami for the Forbidden Lore. Divorce Ami when she refuses to give Hazou the Forbidden Lore.

If you can't tell, I would find it very interesting to join Akatsuki.

~~... I can vote for my own plans right?~~

DanZapman · Oct 13, 2023

Buggy said:
... I can vote for my own plans right?

I think that's the default when you suggest them as long as you [X]'d them yeah.

eaglejarl · Oct 13, 2023

Crunbum said:
Note that operations =/= checks.

*goes back and checks the original post*

Aha! I misread, sorry for that.

Crunbum said:
Each check you make you have to roll dice, add it together, subtract TN, divide by three, add one and round down to get shifts, then you subtract Shifts from the Consequence appropriately and then you redo this several times a day if there are multiple checks that need to be made, and then updates often cover multiple days, so it adds up to a large amount of work for a single skill, which of course can be done via a spreadsheet formula or such but ideally a ruleset for a single skill would be simple enough not require such a spreadsheet to calculate outcomes, or glancing back at the rules to make sure eveything's nice and proper.

just feels like too much. Maybe its not, but it could be simpler without any loss of mechanical depth is what I was trying to say, I guess, and it feels quite rigid too. I have a bunch of feedback as to the actual mechanical balancing of the ruleset, too, but that will have to wait till I get some sleep because its nearly 5am rn where I live haha.

Compare this with the suggestion:

- Take a Medium from Taijutsu 41 at Physique 20.
- 240 x 41 / 20 = 492 hours
- Rest in bed at the clinic with minimal activity.

- A chuunin doctor checks his MedKnow 41 for a Treatment Plan vs TN 10 (Average) on the Medium as basic taijutsu wounds are as common as it gets and treating them is pretty much the first thing a medic's getting taught. He is not rushing nor meticulous, so he wont move up nor down the time ladder in the task. He rolls 41 + 0 (Dice) = 31 over TN = 11 Shifts = +55% Healing Rate.

- The MedNin 40 healer at the clinic is very busy and can only spare so much time. Healing is normally a TL 8 task (An Hour) but he rushes it as much as he can (3 steps down), so now its TL 5. He rolls 40 - 15 (3 AB) = 25, which on +0 dice is still +5 vs Physique 20, and that is 2 Shifts, or +20%.

- Healing Rate = 1.75 (1+0.55+0.2) x 2 (Rest) = 3.5x for that day, meaning 3.5 x 24 = 84h off the wound.

(Spoiler tag removed for ease of reference.)

I'm confused on a number of fronts:

Above, you stated that skill checks involve too many operations and that was one of the big reasons you wanted to propose an alternate system. You're using skill checks in your proposal, so...???
The system the QMs proposed measures Consequences in terms of shifts, your system measures them in terms of hours. Could you expand on the advantage of using hours? I'm missing your point.
You said that you wanted a mathematically simpler system, but you're involving percentages instead of integers. I'm not sure how that's a win. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

(Also, point of information: the time ladder starts at "an instant" and durations get longer as you go down the table. Therefore, when you are hurrying you are moving up the time ladder, not down.)

Crunbum said:
Like the healing from Resting, MedNin and MedKnow all being flat numbers uncaring and unrelated to the base duration and hence severity of the Consequence scaling off Physique.

Or genin mednin being harmful more often than being helpful due to the TNs being set arbitrarily as a fit for chuunin+ mednin only.

Or characters being exactly as easy to heal (or harm!) with mednin regardless of their Physique, which, it probably should be harder to heal the wounds sustained by Gai than a random civilian, or to harm the former's body.

Or doctors diagnosing the same wound with MedKnow over and over again daily instead of making a diagnosis once, then doing a treatment plan based on that (That just seems.. off. Sure, they'd redo it if it doesn't work, but if it does?)

Or immediate healing affecting two interdependent variables, which means there is always a golden combination to apply but it isnt obvious leading to arbitrarily suboptimal healing choices and leftover shifts that cant be spent due to cost progressions, which is a loss for granularity.

Etc etc

Thank you for these suggestions. I'll talk to the others about them.

Inferno Vulpix said:
Thanks for the answer (and sorry about being confusing with my wordings a bit, I edited the post but it looks like late enough that you responded to the confusingly-worded version)

Specifically for our current purposes: is there a way for Hazou in his current situation to do sealing research without physically taxing himself? i.e. taking a leisurely stroll to the facilities instead, with Kagome escorting him, or even by having Kagome carry Hazou there? I know I'm proposing a finicky and annoying way to get around Hazou's current physical limitations, but, like, when I broke my leg some years back that's exactly what I had to do irl.

Much of this will fall beneath the layer of abstraction anyways, so the true question here is whether it's possible at all, provided Hazou is willing to put up with finicky restrictions and lean on his family for help.

Good point. The others are asleep right now but I've added this to QM QUINOA and we'll get back to you.

Buggy said:
B: Iron-nerve seal-downloading and recreation via earthshaping (iirc, the only practical way to make copies of the seal for examination, as the dragons are fucking sitting on top of it). Decently convincing IMO.

Note that the Iron Nerve doesn't help when creating seals via Earthshaping. That's a chakra-based process, not something you do with your physical body, so perfection of action doesn't help.

(Well, you *can* mold modestly-sized things with your hands during ES, but it still requires manipulating the insides with chakra so I'm technically correct. Which is the best kind of correct. :> )

Buggy said:
... I can vote for my own plans right?

Yup! In fact, simply proposing the plan with an [x] on it means that you are voting for it.

Left-Hand Mutant · Oct 13, 2023

Buggy said:
We would like to accept. Joining Akatsuki would align strongly with our goals, and it's only because of the severe consequences to the Dragonwar, our family, and our clan that we can't immediately accept.

Respectfully, we think you are underestimating our abilities as a Sealsmaster, and with it, our importance to the Dragonwar.

Our Bloodline allows us to permanently memorize the entirety of a seal from a glance and recreate it later, and we got a glance of it at great cost. Out of everyone in Leaf, we have the most detailed understanding of the Great Seal.

We are the most skilled Earthshaper in Leaf, which allows us to examine the seal safely from underground, create miniature copies, and which enables future repairs to the Great Seal.

We also created the HOWs, which help stabilize the Great Seal, and we are the only one aside from a summon boss to have killed a dragon.

Do not elaborate on how if it can be helped. No need to poke at a sore point.

if you've made detailed copies, why does your Iron Nerve advantage matter anymore?

Buggy said:
To that end, we would like to try to find a third option.

We're kind of spitballing here, so we understand that some of these might fall apart after close examination.

I'd much rather have an approach with more CONVICTION!

Buggy said:
First, do we have permission to invite Ami? Ami is a third party who is trusted by both of us, and a world-class expert at finding third options in tricky political situations. We strongly believe that this situation would be better resolved with her help.

Ami is read in on the Necromancy project, and originally suggested that we revive Pain to assist with world peace, with all the treason that implies. She is on-board and OPSEC-safe.

Reminder that Ami seriously pissed Itachi off, and has been trying to avoid him until she can find a way to appease him. this might be a pretty bad move.

Buggy said:
First idea: Make our cooperation a concession from Leaf.

You have Leaf over a barrel. You can change the deal.

Call it a head for a head or something. Leaf took someone valuable from you, so you take someone valuable from Leaf.

Tell them you found our research more valuable than you anticipated, and you want our expertise and to keep a eye on us.

There is no need to tell them what or why you want us.

Maybe offer concessions to sweeten the deal? Demand less land?

I don't love this. it has the same issue as "Itachi kidnaps us" of being obviously a cover for exfiltration. Also runs counter to the themes of our next two ideas, weakening our argument. cut it?

Buggy said:
Second idea: Go to Tsunade together. Itachi bluntly informs her that Akatsuki will be able to bring back the dead shortly.

She has a few ways to respond to this:

Option 1: She rallies against it with all her might. Leaf gets bombed.

Anyone other hidden village she tries to convince to help will not believe Akatsuki's word against Leaf, it would be seen as a ploy to turn the world against Akatsuki moments after suffering harsh sanctions.

Option 2: She stays out of it and keeps Hazo. Akatsuki does what they want and recovers Pain.

Option 3: She cooperates and donates Hazo, who was independently researching resurrection. Leaf gets concessions, such as Jiraiya revived.

Jiraiya is a force for peace and Hazo, as a member of Akatsuki, would want him back regardless. This is a win/win.

This is not actually telling her anything new.

You announced that you wanted 'dimensional research'.

We reported our mission in O'Uzu in detail as soon as we got back. She'll figure it out.

We told a variety of trusted people about necromancy, including Ami, summons, clan heads, the hokage, and s-classers.

Leaf will figure out what you got and what you want to do with it.

Really, this just gets ahead of the game, and proactively prevents any plans to interfere.

The Akatsuki don't like Jiraiya very much(he was instrumental preventing Nagi Island). And Jiraiya is only very incidentally pro-peace. Minato seems like he shares Hazou/Pain/uplift's ideals, and is also a beloved hero. He might be a better person to name?
also, "no unilateral super-rituals" is the concession I'm most interested in

Buggy said:
Third idea: Make this a public AMITY venture.

Publicly announce that the next AMITY project is opening the rift and reviving the dead.

Anyone revived will swear to uphold AMITY above all else, to the satisfaction of all AMITY members.

AMITY gets more force for peace, everyone else gets their loved ones back.

Definitely bring in Ami for troubleshooting if we go with this.

empthisise the advantages of having Hazuo's (and potentialy Orochimaru's) help on necromancy.

Buggy said:
If none of those work... are you going to let us leave alive if we refuse?

If we had to choose between helping you and dying, we would rather swear on Akane's Resurrection to join Akatsuki and help you.

Our death would cause all the same problems as if we left.

Obviously we'd prefer this instead of dying.

I wouldn't volunteer this, It'll just make Itachi lose respect for us. If, after we say no, he wants to threaten us, we can chose how to respond.
also, I don't think he wants to kill us. he seems to be genuinely appreciating our shared ideals, and wants uplift to proceed.

Emstar · Oct 13, 2023

Buggy said:
... I can vote for my own plans right?

Yes, but if you do it like this its going to make it hell to find via the vote tally hyperlinks. Generally only vote for it on the post with the actual plan IIRC

JustForThis · Oct 13, 2023

roobee said:
…or by us willingly collaborating under oversight. Which is what the plan is trying to do. What are we gonna do, close the rift when sasori is right next to us?
Oh, I think you are concerned of where we convince itachi of the threat. But we don't convince him or Tsunade to let us help akatsuki. And you are against leaving leaf without kage permission. Right?
Edit2: but wouldn't akatsuki just kill leaf if the rift is messed with?

I don't want to go with Akatsuki at all. I want stay in konohana, quietly beat Sasori to portal opening, use skywalkers or something to unnoticeably go through first, and either (or both):

open another portal in a location they don't know about so we can search without them knowing
mine the hell out of the other side the portal (preferably with exotic effects) so whenever they try to go through they die without knowing why and 'knowing' that it's not us (as they 'know' that with Sasori having our notes and his, we can't outpace the-better-sealmaster-that-is-Sasori).

Alternately, just close the damn thing for now.

Edit:

roobee said:
…or by us willingly collaborating under oversight. Which is what the plan is trying to do.

The A,B,C thig was for feeling out how to convince Itachi we're important for the Dragonwar, which I took to be plan agnostic.

Left-Hand Mutant · Oct 13, 2023

Basically a merge of (Action Plan: No, But Yes) and (Action Plan: Not Actually A Fleshed Out Action Plan)
I like the powerful emotional arguments and strong vision of the former, but want to unite it with some of the reasoning outlined the latter.

Summery: Akatsuki just blew necromancy OPSEC, and everyone is gonna be scared of Pain doing Nagi 2.0.
Instead of treating everyone like hostiles while you proceed anyways, what if you promise to not do Nagi Island 2.0, and we(Leaf/AMITY) all unite to resurrect Pain together.

[X] Action Plan: AMITY Ascendant

Clarify: Hazou is leaf's best sealmaster. We aren't as good a Jiraiya yet, but we're better than Orochimaru.
- Our contributions to the dragonwar are irreplaceable.
If Pain is going to continue the work of AMITY and fix the world by gaining the non-coercive cooperation of the EN, we want him back and we want to help achieve this goal. Full stop.
- That support is heavily conditioned on nonviolent, non-coercive behavior. We're not willing to go missing to help the Akatsuki revive him for a variety of reasons. But an unbreakable AMITY interested in redistributing power to help civilians? Yes, we want that, very badly.
No matter what we do, Leaf leadership is about to learn about the Necromancy race.
- You announced that you wanted 'dimensional research'.
- We reported our mission in O'Uzu in detail as soon as we got back. She'll figure it out.
- We told a variety of trusted people about necromancy, including Ami, summons, clan heads, the Hokage, and s-classers.
- Leaf will figure out what you got and what you want to do with it.
Basically everyone who learns about the Akatsuki necromancy plans will share our about worries about unilateral super-rituals.
We've been avoiding turning this into Leaf/EN vs Akatsuki race for the afterlife, the outcome would be disastrous.
- our best plan was to beat the Akatsuki to the rift, and resurrect Pain on our own, in exchange for promises not to unilaterally do scary super-rituals, and to give us the chance to be a dissenting voice on his plans.
Now that the undead cat is out of the necromantic bag, there are two obvious routes forward:
- Akatsuki destroy leaf to delay necromancy leaking. hundreds(?) of thousands die, the dragonwar might cause total extinction.
- Akatsuki try to force peace while speedruning necromancy, hope that the EN dosen't manage to get a warband together to try to kill sasori(and colapse AMITY)
the first is a non-starter, but the Akatsuki could probably manage the second, but does have risks. also, it's very much "violent ninja useing violence to impose thier will"
Itachi said he wants to move past a world defined by the strong imposing on the weak, and this outcome seems kinda sad.
- There has to be a third way:
- Our proposal:
  - Make opening the Rift an AMITY project. Between Sasori, Orochimaru, Hazo, and whoever else knows enough to help, we can do this.
    - Anyone who doesn't like it can try to take on the Akatsuki, Leaf, and Mist.
  - Anyone revived must swear allegiance to AMITY - above their nation, above their personal interests, above everything. Pain included.
    - Not the Akatsuki, but AMITY, the council of the heads of nations for the purpose of ensuring peace.
    - Anyone who doesn't make this oath isn't allowed back. Pain included.
  - Everyone here lost someone they dearly want back, can see where the world is heading and wants to turn it around, or both. This can accomplish both goals... but only if can work together.
  - Can we do that? How can we get to that point if we aren't there now?
    - If you need to sell Tsunade on this, Itachi, retract all demands except Kisame's - we need that for the Dragons and Great Seal.
- Work with us. Make this happen. Do it the hard way.

Buggy · Oct 13, 2023

Left-Hand Mutant said:
Advice

Good points, I went and updated the plan to take most of these into account. I've left the part with Ami in - there doesn't seem to be a strong reason not to, and frankly, i'm mostly certain that if we get Ami on the problem then she can actually find a working third option.

MMKII said:
Yes, but if you do it like this its going to make it hell to find via the vote tally hyperlinks. Generally only vote for it on the post with the actual plan IIRC

Alright, I removed those votes from that post.

Sir Stompy · Oct 13, 2023

eaglejarl said:
(Also, point of information: the time ladder starts at "an instant" and durations get longer as you go down the table. Therefore, when you are hurrying you are moving up the time ladder, not down.)

I want to point out that as far as I can tell (from debating on Discord) no one understands this. If you want to remove the ambiguity, I suggest putting the correct usage in bold in the Rules Doc under the Time Ladder section. So that if someone ever gets confused they can just check there for the correct usage.

Cariyaga · Oct 13, 2023

Sir Stompy said:
I want to point out that as far as I can tell (from debating on Discord) no one understands this. If you want to remove the ambiguity, I suggest putting the correct usage in bold in the Rules Doc under the Time Ladder section. So that if someone ever gets confused they can just check there for the correct usage.

It is, admittedly, very confusing that going down the time ladder increases the time it takes and going up the time ladder reduces it, I can absolutely agree.

Left-Hand Mutant · Oct 13, 2023

Buggy said:
Good points, I went and updated the plan to take most of these into account. I've left the part with Ami in - there doesn't seem to be a strong reason not to, and frankly, i'm mostly certain that if we get Ami on the problem then she can actually find a working third option.

Alright, I removed those votes from that post.

Thanks, this looks great!

---

FYI: Normally the first post updated and used as the "master". Because of this, many people won't read every revision, and only pay attention to the first version they read.
Not following this convention may result in confusion and fewer votes.

To fix this, replace the text of this post with the updated text from your second post.

Buggy said:
So, broadly, I think the best response here is something along these lines.

[X] Action Plan: Not Actually A Fleshed Out Action Plan

We would like to accept. Joining Akatsuki would have many benefits, and it's only because of the severe consequences to the Dragonwar and our friends and family and clan that we can't immediately accept.

(Very Risky) Outline that we are a better sealmaster than Itachi thinks by revealing Lithosealing.

This cannot be undone - only do it if we are certain we want to be 'acquired' by Akatsuki regardless, and hope we can convince him that the Dragonwar necessitates finding a solution with our family, reputation, and Leaf intact.

This proves to Itachi that we're not blowing smoke when we insist on being part of the Dragonwar; we're the only one who has any idea how to fix the Great Seal.

To that end, we would like to try to find a third option.

We're kind of spitballing here, so we understand that some of these might fall apart after close examination.

First, do we have permission to bring anyone else into this discussion? Ami is a third party who is trusted by both of us, and a world-class expert at finding third options in tricky political situations. We strongly believe that this situation would be better resolved with her help.

(Risky) Inform Itachi that Ami is read in on the Necromancy project and heartily approves, and as such is not a OPSEC risk for this discussion.

If Itachi is planning to kill us if we refuse, this may put Ami in the line of fire! Kei would never forgive us for getting Ami killed, and would most certainly revive us later on to enact a creative revenge.

If not, here are our ideas.

First idea: Make our cooperation a concession from Leaf.

You have Leaf over a barrel. You can change the deal.

Call it a head for a head or something. Kakuzu was valuable to you, we're valuable to Leaf, and maybe that could balance out.

Tell them you found our research more valuable than you anticipated.

Maybe offer concessions to sweeten the deal? Demand less land or something?

Downsides: hard to sell, if we seem eager instead of reluctant/resigned we could be considered a traitor regardless. Or even if we act perfectly, it's suspicious timing when we're already under suspicion.

Second idea: Go to Tsunade with Itachi. Bluntly inform her that Akatsuki will be able to bring back the dead shortly.

She has a few ways to respond to this:

Option 1: She rallies against it with all her might. Leaf gets bombed, AMITY falls apart, Leaf's ashes get annexed by Rock.

Absolute best case scenario there: She convinces the other nations that Akatsuki is going to achieve this. The villages band together to fight Akatsuki again in Nagi Island 2. And then after they're gone, AMITY falls apart and Leaf gets annexed by Rock.

Option 2: She stays out of it. Akatsuki gets Pain and other essies back, they stay unbeatable and continue to enforce AMITY.

Risky for her. It takes them at their word that they won't just do Nagi Island again.

Option 3: She cooperates and donates Hazo, who was independently researching resurrection. Leaf gets concessions, such as Jiraiya and other s-classers.

She can trust this option more, because obviously Hazo is going to push for bringing Jiraiya back.

Still kinda casts suspicions on Hazo.

She will likely know about this regardless.

You publicly announced that you wanted 'dimensional research'.

We told Asuma about it even if he didn't believe us and he probably wrote it down.

Shikamaru knows even if he wasn't convinced.

Ami knows and is convinced.

We told the Toad sages about our plans to revive Jiraiya, their former summoner.

Naruto, the soon-to-be Hokage, knows.

Kagome knows and worked with us extensively on the project.

Many of our family members know.

If you let us leave alive we will be obligated to tell our Hokage everything when she asks or get killboxed for treason. And she will ask.

Really, this just gets ahead of the game.

(But maybe don't provide a itemized list of who Akatsuki needs to assassinate if it can be avoided, even if concealing it is pretty unlikely at this point).

Third idea: Make this a public AMITY venture.

Pros: can probably spin it to Tsunade and get permission for us to help.

Cons: Causes absolute geopolitical clusterfuck the likes of which only Ami could wrangle.

Fourth idea: ???

"Kidnap" us?

Fake our death?

Secret shadow clone technique with unlimited range?

Let us stay here but we become pen pals with Sasori?

Also, if none of those work... are you going to let us leave alive if we refuse?

If 'no', then we'll come with you and swear on Akane's Resurrection to cooperate fully.

Obviously we'd prefer this instead of dying.

Not sure how we could avoid Itachi immediately bluffing to secure our cooperation.

This is a outline of course, it's too long for a real plan and i'm not a good plan-worderer regardless. But this seems to be what the majority of people would prefer.

And then as a bonus, replace your second posting with a qoute of your (now updated!) first post.

Buggy said:
Okay, here's the modified plan. It should mostly be the same in specifics, i've just tried to make the wording more concise, added assisting talking points, tailored it towards being a conversation, and less like a outline.

Major differences are, as requested, I elaborated on the Iron Nerve but not lithosealing itself, and generally tried to convince Itachi that we are indeed hot shit. I fleshed out the Amity plan a little, but not to the detail of that other plan.

[X] Action Plan: Not Actually a Fleshed Out Action Plan
Word Count: ???

We would like to accept. Joining Akatsuki would align strongly with our goals, and it's only because of the severe consequences to the Dragonwar, our family, and our clan that we can't immediately accept.

Respectfully, we think you are underestimating our abilities as a Sealsmaster, and with it, our importance to the Dragonwar.

Our Bloodline allows us to permanently memorize the entirety of a seal from a glance and recreate it later, and we got a glance of it at great cost. Out of everyone in Leaf, we have the most detailed understanding of the Great Seal.

We are the most skilled Earthshaper in Leaf, which allows us to examine the seal safely from underground, and which enables future repairs to the Great Seal.

We also created the HOWs, which help stabilize the Great Seal, and we are the only one aside from a summon boss to have killed a dragon.

Do not elaborate on how if it can be helped. No need to poke at a sore point.

We would like to find a third option. Resurrecting our loved ones is a goal that everyone can support as much as peace, and we shouldn't have to give up the living to do it.

First, do we have permission to invite Ami? Ami is a third party who is trusted by both of us, and a world-class expert at finding third options in tricky political situations. We strongly believe that this situation would be better resolved with her help.

Ami is read in on the Necromancy project, and originally suggested that we revive Pain to assist with world peace, with all the treason that implies. She is on-board and OPSEC-safe.

If we can't invite Ami, here are a few ideas.

First idea: Go to Tsunade together. Itachi bluntly informs her that Akatsuki will be able to bring back the dead shortly.

She has a few ways to respond to this:

Option 1: She rallies against it with all her might. Leaf gets bombed.

Anyone other hidden village she tries to convince to help will not believe Akatsuki's word against Leaf, it would be seen as a ploy to turn the world against Akatsuki moments after suffering harsh sanctions.

Option 2: She stays out of it and keeps Hazo. Akatsuki does what they want and recovers Pain.

Option 3: She cooperates and donates Hazo, who was independently researching resurrection. Leaf gets concessions, such reviving Minato.

Minato shares Pain's ideals, and is much-beloved by Leaf. This is win/win.

This is not actually telling her anything new.

You announced that you wanted 'dimensional research'.

We reported our mission in O'Uzu in detail as soon as we got back. She'll figure it out.

We told a variety of trusted people about necromancy, including Ami, summons, clan heads, the hokage, and s-classers.

Leaf will figure out what you got and what you want to do with it.

Really, this just gets ahead of the game, and proactively prevents any plans to interfere.

Second idea: Make this a public AMITY venture.

Publicly announce that the next AMITY project is opening the rift and reviving the dead.

Gains the assistance of Orochimaru and Hazo.

Anyone revived will swear to uphold AMITY above all else, to the satisfaction of all AMITY members.

Akatsuki will swear not to unilaterally perform super-rituals.

AMITY gets more force for peace, everyone else gets their loved ones back.

Definitely bring in Ami for troubleshooting if we go with this.

Don't volunteer this, but if Itachi makes it clear he plans to kill us for refusing, agree to assist Akatsuki. Swear on Akane's Resurrection, and do whatever is necessary to convince them you will earnestly help them and not betray them.

Our death would cause all the same problems as if we left.

Obviously we'd prefer this instead of dying.

Buggy · Oct 13, 2023

Left-Hand Mutant said:
Thanks, this looks great!

---

FYI: Normally the first post updated and used as the "master". Because of this, many people won't read every revision, and only pay attention to the first version they read.
Not following this convention may result in confusion and fewer votes.

To fix this, replace the text of this post with the updated text from your second post.

And then as a bonus, replace your second posting with a qoute of your (now updated!) first post.

Done. Should I do something to shorten the Lithosealing version of the plan? Maybe put it inside a quote too?

Left-Hand Mutant · Oct 13, 2023

Buggy said:
Done. Should I do something to shorten the Lithosealing version of the plan? Maybe put it inside a quote too?

Nope, you're done! It's technically its own plan(with it's own vote!) so it gets left up as the "master" for that fork of the plan.

Jaedar · Oct 13, 2023

[X] Action Plan: AMITY Ascendant

eaglejarl · Oct 13, 2023

"Why in the world would I accept being Sasori's assistant? I'm better than him. You know how I know? Because he sent you here to steal my research instead of putting in the work himself. Also, you people have dorked up this whole situation so badly I don't even know what to think. You say you want peace? Cool. Suggestion one: Next time one of you needs to arrest someone, lead with 'you are under arrest' instead of starting an aura fight that you're too much of a scrub to win, then chump-shotting your target after your buddy saves your ass. Oh, and try not sending the psychotic murderhippy to be your arresting officer. Have a grownup do it instead. You know, someone who is willing to actually use their brain when the evidence adds up to a giant flashing sign saying 'Asuma is being framed'. Suggestion two: if you want to get into the afterlife ASAP, don't be a bitch: put the word out, get every sealmaster in the world working on the same thing. I guarantee it won't be hard to convince the various Kage to get in on saving their heroes' lives and not letting other nations control access to the afterlife. Use AMITY as a coordination point because, oh right, that's what it's for. Suggestion three-- Actually, you know what? This is stupid. Why don't you go home, get your murder-bunny friends, and come back here so that we can all talk about what it is you want to accomplish and then I can tell you how to do it, and also to stop tripping on your massive egos. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have important stuff to do."

[x] I Hits A Bits

Deliver the speech at the top of this post, then leave.
Collect Mari, Naruto, Shikamaru, Kei, Noburi, Kagome. Take them to Tsunade's office and:
- Tell the story of EM from start to finish so that they know why Asuma died
- Tell them all, in detail, about the conversation you just had with Itachi. Be completely honest. If challenged, ask yourself WWJD (What Would Jiraiya Do?) and do that.
- Tell them you have learned how to do 3D sealing and that you will not be sharing the particulars with anyone outside of the Gōketsu. You are happy to take research commissions so long as Naruto and Tsunade:
  - Keep Orochimaru off your back
  - Have Tsunade maximize your healing speed until this Consequence clears
  - Supply you with 150% of the amount of substrate needed for the project
  - Ma and Pa thought it would be easy to make a jutsu that can produce substrate. How about helping us make that happen?
- Describe the expected products of runes -- e.g., shields over entire estates, explosions capable of leveling small cities, etc. If they ask how likely it is that runes can actually do those things, lie and say that it's 100% certain instead of saying you have no idea and maybe they can't.

I guarantee a good outcome if this plan wins. (Specifically, I guarantee the outcome "I will have lots of fun writing it." In-universe results are not guaranteed.)

EDIT: Apparently I wasn't obvious enough: This plan is a joke and you should not vote for it.

Left-Hand Mutant · Oct 13, 2023

Man, you really like yelling at Itachi.

Inferno Vulpix · Oct 13, 2023

[X] Action Plan: I Am Once Again Asking For Your Diplomatic Support

Regretfully decline. You're more needed for the Dragonwar.
- If Itachi decides to kill you: calmly reassert your importance for the Dragonwar. You've already been crucial for stopping fast degradation (HOWS). Last resort: reveal lithosealing.
Immediate debriefing with Tsunade: Fully debrief the Itachi conversation except what's necromancy-related. Itachi apologized, attempted recruitment based on supposed ideological compatibility, you escaped by arguing Dragonwar needs.
- Schedule another meeting a few hours later. You have ideas regarding why Akatsuki wanted dimensionalism.
- Insist on needing time to prepare, to run some preliminary analyses. Otherwise it'll all sound incoherent.
  - If she orders us, skip to the second meeting.
Top-security meeting with Kei, Ami, Mari.
- Brief them on everything that just happened, and also lithosealing.
- Three options:
  1. Try to out-race them. May still be viable: if you can crack rift-moving, you can steal it and replace it with a different one. If done covertly, they may not even realize there's been foul play: just the universe being cruel.
    - ...but you're not sure you'll be fast enough anymore, and they could have the rift guarded.
  2. Try to kill them. Lithosealing should allow novel superweapons, and with sufficient intel on their movements Leaf's forces could in theory assassinate each Akatsuki member before any of them know to retaliate.
    - But the death of Akatsuki would likely spell the end of AMITY, even if we resurrected a bunch of Leaf S-Rankers in their stead.
  3. Let Akatsuki monopolise the rift. Unfortunately, they don't seem inclined to resurrect Jiraiya.
    - With sufficient political manoeuvring, could we make it in their interests to resurrect a Kage for each country?
- However, options one and two require:
  1. You to recover faster. Requires Tsunade and/or Orochimaru's focused attention.
  2. Leaf's buy-in. Can't kill Akatsuki without Leaf's S-rankers, and likely can't covertly steal the rift either (they likely placed guards/spies there).
  3. Your focused attention over a multi-month period. It's nontrivial: you have many different projects on your plate, and Clan Head duties and random smaller disasters (Hagoromo, suspicions about your culpability) don't help.
    - Can you three handle that? Ensure over the next half-a-year minimum, you'd be solely focused on beating Akatsuki, with at most Dragonwar as distraction. Not to the extent of social isolation, that'd degrade your performance. But put the fires out so we never waste time pushing non-essential goals.
    - As part of that, Hazou could temporarily step down as Clan Head in favour of Noburi, even if it makes us look incredibly suspicious.
Meet Tsunade again. Optimize with Mari/Ami/Kei, take some of them along if that'd help.
- Debrief her on the necromancy research, the implications of Akatsuki taking it, and lithosealing.
- Outline your anti-Akatsuki options, and what you and Leaf would need to succeed.
- If she's furious we haven't shared necromancy before: we weren't sure it'd even work, wanted a working prototype first.
- If she insists we destroy the rift: Agree it's a sensible precaution, and you'll develop a last-resort seal if necessary... but plead with her to give us the chance to try.

(Non-binding suggestion: Skip the clan meeting, jump directly to the second Tsunade meeting.)

Noumero said:
(Note: my previous preference ordering holds. If it doesn't look like something with a hard oppose-Akatsuki commitment is going to win, I'm likely to vote for joining Akatsuki.)

[x] Action Plan: I Am Once Again Asking For Your Deicidal Support
Word count: <600.

Regretfully decline. You're more needed for the Dragonwar.

If Itachi decides to kill you: calmly reassert your importance for the Dragonwar. You've already been crucial for stopping fast degradation (HOWS). Last resort: reveal lithosealing.

Immediate debriefing with Tsunade: Share everything except what's necromancy-related. Itachi apologized, attempted recruitment based on supposed ideological compatibility, you escaped by arguing Dragonwar needs.

Schedule another meeting a few hours later. You have ideas regarding why Akatsuki wanted dimensionalism.

Insist on needing time to prepare, to run some preliminary analyses. Otherwise the whole thing'll sound incoherent.

Top-security meeting with Kei, Ami, Mari.

Brief them on everything, including lithosealing.

Three options:

Let Akatsuki win. Unfortunately, you don't really trust that Pain's utopia isn't a hellscape, and that he won't try another ritual.

The fact that Hidan was his dear friend doesn't cast him in a good light. And Pain was nothing if not persuasive — so Itachi believes whatever Pain wanted him to.

Try to out-race them. May still be viable: if you can crack rift-moving, you can steal it and replace it with a different one (say, the blade-horrors one). If done covertly, they may not even realize there's been foul play: just the universe being cruel.

... but you're not sure moving rifts is possible.

Try to kill them. Lithosealing should allow novel superweapons, or global tracking tools (for defeat-in-detail). With that, plus Leaf's S-rankers and spy networks, plus assassination squads tailor-designed for each Akastuki member, assembled from the best esoteric-ninjutsu specialists pooled from all Leaf-aligned Summon Clans? Should be doable.

But it shouldn't look like a battle. It should look like us waiting until they'd split up into groups of 2-3 people, and we know where they are, then smashing each group one-by-one, quickly enough that they can't communicate and alert each other.

AMITY response: tricky, but should be ultimately manageable. Do it covertly enough, or manufacture a pretext post-factum, or (if our new superweapons are powerful enough) just own it.

However, options two and three require:

You to recover faster. Requires Tsunade and/or Orochimaru's focused attention.

Leaf's buy-in. Can't kill Akatsuki without Leaf's S-rankers, and likely can't covertly steal the rift either (they likely placed guards/spies there).

Your focused attention over a multi-month period. It's nontrivial: you have a natural tendency to switch between a myriad projects, and Clan Head duties and random smaller disasters (Hagoromo, suspicions about your culpability) don't help.

Ami: Can she handle that? Ensure over the next half-a-year minimum, you'd be solely focused on beating Akatsuki, with at most Dragonwar as distraction. Not to the extent of social isolation, that'd degrade your performance. But ensure there aren't fires only Hazou can put out, and act against Hazou's own natural distractability.

As part of that, Hazou may temporarily step down as Clan Head in favour of Noburi.

Meet Tsunade again. Optimize with Mari/Ami/Kei, take some of them along if that'd help.

Debrief her on the necromancy research, the implications of Akatsuki taking it, and lithosealing.

Outline your anti-Akatsuki options, and what you and Leaf would need to succeed.

If she's furious we haven't shared necromancy before: we weren't sure it'd even work, wanted a working prototype first (Rift Seal 0).

If she insists we destroy the rift: Agree it's a sensible precaution, and you'd develop a seal to for that, to use as a last resort if Akatsuki'd win otherwise... but plead with her to give us the chance to try.

(Non-binding suggestion: Skip the clan meeting, jump directly to the second Tsunade meeting.)

I very much like the structure and framing of this plan... but I dislike the deicide. I don't believe that AMITY can survive the death of Akatsuki, and I don't believe that Akatsuki will create a monstrous horrid dystopia if they get Pain back. I think, rather, that having Akatsuki alive is the best outcome for the world right now, because world peace is exactly what we need and if we destroy it here it's going to be all the harder to get it back (and it was already a perfect storm of maximally-seized opportunities the first go-around).

So I'm forking it, with the bulk of the changes being in the Kei/Ami/Mari meeting and the options we present. Instead of trying to drive killing Akatsuki as the ideal path forwards, I instead propose attempting to get Jiraiya back through diplomatic means. It seems very plausible to me, for instance, that Akatsuki could find themselves in a position where the best way to maintain the stability of AMITY in light of Pain's resurrection is to prove to its members that resurrection can bring value to them as well, by returning to each village one of their most beloved heroes. Killing Akatsuki is still left in as an option, along with continuing the necromancy race, but with my own assessment of the pros and cons instead.

Overall, this plan has us reject the Akatsuki offer and then work closely with Leaf, either to stop Akatsuki or to let them win in a way that gets Jiraiya resurrected. Not getting Jiraiya resurrected is not an option. That is the main goal of this plan and further edits will be in service of that goal wherever possible.

acidshill · Oct 13, 2023

[x] I Hits A Bits

A plan written by a QM? Well, I have to vote for it.

acidshill · Oct 13, 2023

[X] Action Plan: I Am Once Again Asking For Your Diplomatic Support

Buggy · Oct 13, 2023

[X] I Hits A Bits

Absolutely nothing could go wrong with this. And just think of how much exp we'll get for Sassō!

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

The Shining One

Handsome Gentleperson