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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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ContextBot said:
We're probably annoying the Minami clan, Jiraiya and them wanted to buy up their stuff.

At some point we're probably going to get some comment about this, but it shouldn't be too relevant. Hopefully.
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The Minami are a voting clan, right? Meaning they were in the meeting where Hinata tried to help us save Kei from Orochimaru's table? Pending Mari's Sanity check, we can always hint towards that. Imply that the gem trade deal with the Hyuuga was our settling that debt.

The Minami may not be too happy, but they'd understand. Life debts and familial loyalty are a thing in this universe, and Hazou is on record for being (extremely over)protective of Kei. Hazou making a trade deal with a conservative clan because their Clan Head helped save Kei's life would be in character for him.

Would need to Sanity check it to see if it trips over any Elemental Nations social norms (or Leaf Norms) that we-the-hivemind aren't aware of.

We would also need to phrase it in such a way that we ensure that it's communicated that it is Hazou's own pride that spurs him to do this, rather than any obligation on Kei's part. That way we're not trampling on Kei's agency or feelings of debt she, herself, may feel towards Hinata, but instead Hazou is expelling/expunging/expressing his own feelings with this trade deal, rather than presuming to act on behalf of Kei, unasked.
 
RandomOTP said:
The Minami are a voting clan, right? Meaning they were in the meeting where Hinata tried to help us save Kei from Orochimaru's table? Pending Mari's Sanity check, we can always hint towards that. Imply that the gem trade deal with the Hyuuga was our settling that debt.

The Minami may not be too happy, but they'd understand. Life debts and familial loyalty are a thing in this universe, and Hazou is on record for being (extremely over)protective of Kei. Hazou making a trade deal with a conservative clan because their Clan Head helped save Kei's life would be in character for him.

Would need to Sanity check it to see if it trips over any Elemental Nations social norms (or Leaf Norms) that we-the-hivemind aren't aware of.

We would also need to phrase it in such a way that we ensure that it's communicated that it is Hazou's own pride that spurs him to do this, rather than any obligation on Kei's part. That way we're not trampling on Kei's agency or feelings of debt she, herself, may feel towards Hinata, but instead Hazou is expelling/expunging/expressing his own feelings with this trade deal, rather than presuming to act on behalf of Kei, unasked.
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I mean, that'd also be a lie.

Just tell them that Asuma's asked us to make connections with other clans.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
1. Through the first industrial revolution, it was normal for 50%+ of the household income to be spent on food. Is that the case in MFD as well? Are lots of people still dying of hunger?
2. Do we know how far along the road is?
3. Do we know how Mari has been doing it? Is it just one chunin that's been pushing it along or are there several working on it?
4. Noburi was talking about needing to learn earth element to help with it. Would it be practical to just have him refill a bunch of chunin for a short period of time and push it forward much faster that way?
5. Would it be practical to have a stream of genin meet Noburi at the work site and then walk back along the road?
6. Does Kei think it would be practical to take the food seal bank idea and setup rotating seal banks that move between towns as a mail/mail order service (potentially starting with town we are building the road to)? It seems like it's basically suicide for civilians to travel without ninja aid, which would have to restrict trade something hard since you would be restricted to small numbers of ninja armed convoys.
7. How are clan civilians taxed? Is it the same as other civilians or are they effectively untaxed (as some have speculated)?
 
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Cariyaga said:
We've already reached out to them, though?
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But we don't have a solid relationship with them, trade or otherwise. We've had tea with their Clan Head at least twice (once after Minami's death, and again while Hazou toured the various Clan Estates), but nothing substantial. If they hear that the Hokage told us to foster deeper bonds with the rest of Leaf, and we went to the Hyuuga? I don't see their reaction being great.

If you want to avoid lying, we could spin it as "Hinata is not Hiashi, nor is she [Whoever Hiashi's Predecessor Was]. She is her own person, and is looking to take the Hyuuga Clan in a different direction, but is unfortunately constrained by her Clan Elders."

We would need facts to back it up, of course. Look into her decisions and votes, where she spends her money and where she doesn't. And then we'd better hope that those facts align with our OOC conclusions... but given that Ino vouches for Hinata, Hinata's friendly enough towards Snowflake on that one shopping trip, and that Hinata stuck her neck out for Kei at the risk of drawing Orochimaru's ire? I would be very surprised if we didn't find corroborating evidence.
 
charlesrwest said:
1. Through the first industrial revolution, it was normal for 50%+ of the household income to be spent on food. Is that the case in MFD as well?
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There are extremely high taxes on anything past subsistence.
eaglejarl said:
Q: How are craftsmen/merchant civilians taxed? (e.g. that luxury clothes shop owner. Still subsistence?)
A: According to Rihaku once again, Urbanites are taxed 70% above subsistence level at R4,240.
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This is for urban civilians, but assume it's at least as bad for rural civilians.

So even though Fire is extremely productive, far more so than anything IRL. Civvies capture very little of those gains. And if you make food cheaper. They'll still be taxed almost as much.
 
The Goketsu Clan civilians ("almost 1,000" strong iirc) are eating pretty well due to our Food Bank. We've also set up Till'n'Fills, and those include missions for using the Fertilization Jutsu on hamlets, which guarantees fertile soil for farmers... and we know Bakuchioka (the hamlet that got Hidan'd) has gotten special attention from both Hazou and Mari, with regard to directing Till'n'Fills. So they, at least, likely have enough to eat (though no Ryo to spend).
 
RandomOTP said:
The Goketsu Clan civilians ("almost 1,000" strong iirc) are eating pretty well due to our Food Bank. We've also set up Till'n'Fills, and those include missions for using the Fertilization Jutsu on hamlets, which guarantees fertile soil for farmers... and we know Bakuchioka (the hamlet that got Hidan'd) has gotten special attention from both Hazou and Mari, with regard to directing Till'n'Fills. So they, at least, likely have enough to eat (though no Ryo to spend).
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The hamlets likely aren't monetized, that's very rare in agrarian societies. What that means is that they don't pay taxes in ryo, but in grain, or rice, or meat, or whatever they produced that year. The tax collector collects it, leaving enough for the hamlet to survive (ostensibly) and takes his cut and then his boss the daimyo sells it on the open market and pays the Tower in ryo.
 
Sir Stompy said:
The hamlets likely aren't monetized, that's very rare in agrarian societies. What that means is that they don't pay taxes in ryo, but in grain, or rice, or meat, or whatever they produced that year. The tax collector collects it, leaving enough for the hamlet to survive (ostensibly) and takes his cut and then his boss the daimyo sells it on the open market and pays the Tower in ryo.
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when Kakuzu was taxing them he was basically just taking bags of food IIRC
 
[X] Action Plan: Economic War Council
Word Count: 299
  • Sanity-check with Mari/Kei.
  • Scene: Meeting with Mari/Kei/Noburi/Gaku/Kagome/Haru
  • We have a way to get large amounts of money. How can we best use this to help uplift and secure our clan's future?
    • Caution:
      • We have to be careful not to wreck Leaf (remember the script).
    • Economic growth:
      • In peacetime, economic power lets us more or less order ninja to do till and fills. How do we turn this into prosperity?
      • Finish the road quickly using Noburi refilling a bunch of hired chunin with chakra from a stream of genin traveling the road?
      • Use the fertility jutsu on all the farms near the road?
      • Setup storage seal banks that rotate their contents regularly between cities (cargo and mail)?
      • Hire crafts/business people to work with TH people to make jutsu for peaceful applications? Should we see if the fertility jutsu could be improved for large scale use (like with MARI)?
      • Can we use our economic power to get food and jutsu from the 7th path?
      • We have cheap ore. Would it be useful to expand metals production?
    • Information warfare:
      • Start our own large scale propaganda efforts to get people onboard with Uplift?
      • What is the reaction to the Akane seal bank?
    • Grow ninja power:
      • Are there other supplies that would be useful to provide via the seal bank?
      • Should we hire sealing masters and start a sealing school for seal smiths that focuses on safety?
      • Is there a way we could use money to increase to power/survivability of current clan members? Are there holes in our current capabilities lineup?
      • Should we bid more for adoption tickets?
  • Scene: A Hazo shadow clone to goes fishing with a Naruto shadow clone and they talk about loss.

... it's being weird and won't let me get rid of the bold. Sorry.
 
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I kinda want the civilian view on what they think would improve their lives. So I am really interested to get Gaku's thoughts on how to move forward with uplift.

For all we are about treating civilians like people, we haven't really brought them into the loop on their own uplift much.
 
charlesrwest said:
I kinda want the civilian view on what they think would improve their lives. So I am really interested to get Gaku's thoughts on how to move forward with uplift.

For all we are about treating civilians like people, we haven't really brought them into the loop on their own uplift much.
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MadScientist said:
Or, like, Kenta's.

Or even send out surveys to general civilian populace on their most pressing problems.
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Gaku and Kenta are far far removed from the concerns of most of the civilians in Fire. Most of them live in tiny hamlets far from Leaf.

We already know what will help them most. Walls
 
_The_Bomb said:
  • Most likey suspect is Ruka, who both assigned Akane the unusual mission and didn't report it as overdue.
  • She was seriously softballed in her questioning and was allowed to not answer whatever she didn't like.
  • She needs to be properly interrogated at T&I. Ideally, mindwalked as well. Does this meet the threshold for "village security?"
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I don't agree with this. First of all, this is nothing more than a biased assumption on Hazo's part. We're not involved enough with the tower mission system to make any kind of statement about who might have done this. An incompetent hagoromo (who we are known to be feuding with) would, however, make an excellent patsy.

Which brings me to my second objection. As soon as we start talking about possible traitors or spies in the tower who were involved in this, anybody with two brain cells to rub together is gonna think about Ruka first. The people we're conferring with have at least three each, so there's no need to make the statement. The valuable part of the conversation would be trying to figure out how involved, how knowingly, and who else. Which leads to my third objection...

"The (acting) Hokage and a Yamanaka investigator seriously softballed their interrogation of a possible traitor who they were about to sentence to isolated exile until death (before I stopped that). We should ask them to do it again, but better this time so I get the answers I like instead."

If that somehow doesn't insult every acting ninja in leaf, it would still insult Hazo's intelligence for thinking it might lead to results. Thankfully, we're only taking to our family here, who will instead give us a mixture of incredulous and pitying looks before vetoing that course of action.

We can of course suggest that the interrogation was softballed, but that would work best as a segway into wondering if Asuma ordered the assassination or trying to get Mari to do some spying of her own, not as a plea for the acting authorities to do it again but better this time.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Gaku and Kenta are far far removed from the concerns of most of the civilians in Fire. Most of them live in tiny hamlets far from Leaf.

We already know what will help them most. Walls
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In which case, perhaps we should step on the gas with the roads/walls program?

If we can intensify agriculture (fertility jutsu) or otherwise source food, it could become possible to have more larger well defended communities via concentrating population in smaller areas that harvest less land.

There's also the tunneling jutsu that could be used for wells.

It's possible that better traps might help.

For instance, a civilian settable hot sand macerator could be used ~200 times in resettable traps. It's a big jump in lethality compared to other traps (on par with directional explosives).

I think it would be useful to setup a civilian think tank for uplift efforts.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
There are extremely high taxes on anything past subsistence.

This is for urban civilians, but assume it's at least as bad for rural civilians.

So even though Fire is extremely productive, far more so than anything IRL. Civvies capture very little of those gains. And if you make food cheaper. They'll still be taxed almost as much.
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"Civilian members of Clans and civilian economic activity by Clan Ninja & Jounin are something of a gray area, I don't know if we ever formally discussed it but they've probably got a sweet deal since the system exists to serve the Clans and Jounin. Easiest to handwave and say they're effectively untaxed. Of course, any asymmetrical taxation favoring a certain demographic will incentivize consolidation of business ownership under that demographic, but that only further serves the purposes of the Clans.

Jiraiya never complains about taxation on Icha Icha and, at 70% of net profits, he's the sort that definitely would, so it squares with previously seen behavior. And I don't believe you ever paid any taxes on the Pangolin gold either."

Should we start adopting civilians more aggressively for their tax benefit?
 
RandomOTP said:
The Goketsu Clan civilians ("almost 1,000" strong iirc) are eating pretty well due to our Food Bank. We've also set up Till'n'Fills, and those include missions for using the Fertilization Jutsu on hamlets, which guarantees fertile soil for farmers... and we know Bakuchioka (the hamlet that got Hidan'd) has gotten special attention from both Hazou and Mari, with regard to directing Till'n'Fills. So they, at least, likely have enough to eat (though no Ryo to spend).
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Yes. Shall we adopt more people? Perhaps farmers and metal workers, who we then support via till and fill and keep expanding?

Make joining our clan the economic equivalent of moving to a first world country?

Could we buy the land near the road? Andrew Carnegie made a ton of money by buying up land where the railroad was going to go before it was public knowledge. Once it was built the value skyrocketed. I suspect something similar would happen with the road.

It's connected to leaf, so there is already massive value added compared to random land.
 
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I'm currently unsatisfied with @_The_Bomb 's plan. I think it strikes too accusatory a tone regarding the events that took place surrounding Akane's death and doesn't weight possibilities how I would. I'm posting a fork that largely covers the points in his plan, but aims for a different tone.

[X] Action Plan: To Speak in Vain to Silent Ash
Word Count: 299
  • Gather Mari, Kei, Snowflake
    • Highest OPSEC
  • Circumstances around Akane's disappearance seem suspicious.
  • Discuss timeline
    • Jan 5, noon: mission assigned.
      • TA formed a month prior: early for a mission outside Leaf?
    • Jan 6: Attackers enter Fire, find TA's tracks
      • 4 hours into Fire, ~1.5 to reach campsite: 5.5 minimum, if they camped on the border.
      • Attackers actively tracked TA. Indicates premeditated assault, mission to kill/capture.
        • Targeting TA at worst, Leaf-nin at best.
    • Jan 6-7, (predawn): Attackers engage TA
      • Likely ambushed TA, bypassing their perimeter?
        • Ask Kagome how difficult to bypass?
    • Jan 6-7, (unknown): Attackers exfiltrate.
      • Took 7 hours to leave Fire. No sign of significant injury/chakra expenditure.
      • They were strong - jonin, multiple chuunin? Why commit such resources?
        • Or they were prepared.
      • Ambushes require intelligence - maybe they knew Akane's route?
        • Spy would need to leave Leaf (in broad daylight, at a ninja run) the instant Akane's mission was assigned to get to the border in time
        • Could it have been leaked in advance?
  • Seems possible Akane was set up.
    • Genin team - to split her attention?
    • Location leaked: allows ambush.
    • Assigned this mission specifically to lure Akane?
    • Asuma thought it sounded like a botched capture mission.
    • Ruka is a suspect (or catspaw): she assigned Akane the mission early, didn't report it overdue.
    • How thorough was Ruka's interrogation?
      • Shikamaru knew about EM, but seemed convinced she was dead. Asuma was surprised by this.
      • Shikamaru monofocused on Hidan when we mentioned him. Asuma didn't.
      • This just seems weird. Genjutsu?
      • Why was Akane mindwalked for EM security but not Ruka?
  • Are we crazy?
    • What do we do next? Investigate privately? Drop it?
    • The obvious suspects are members EM nuke conspiracy.
  • Take the Sealing Exam
    • Prep with Kagome (for tags)
    • Aim to impress
    • Be respectful. Offer a (Mari-approved) gift as thanks.
--------------------

Suggestions welcome, ping me here or on Discord. This needs WC trimming, so anything in that vein is especially welcome.
 
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charlesrwest said:
Should we start adopting civilians more aggressively for their tax benefit?
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charlesrwest said:
Yes. Shall we adopt more people? Perhaps farmers and metal workers, who we then support via till and fill and keep expanding?

Make joining our clan the economic equivalent of moving to a first world country
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If we started doing this on a scale necessary to significantly affect civvies all across Fire, the Tower will get involved. That would cut into revenues, you see.

Can't cheat the system that way. We have schemes set up that are supposed to lower taxes on the civvies by showing that the Tower can take less of a larger pie and still grow revenues. Let's stick with that.
 
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