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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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What it comes down to is top down innovation (Radical) vs Bottom Up Innovation (Conservative)

Find a problem, and make a rune to solve it

vs

Make slightly different rune variants, and apply them to problems as you find them.
 
If it's an option, it's in character. I haven't voted because I'm fine with it either way (as long as the thread doesn't devolving into pure shipping crap constantly), but yeah in character or not doesn't factor in here. If you can vote it, it's in character.

I've been lurking in this quest for a long time, but I feel the need to chime in on this. I agree with Cursix.
Saying a vote is out of character is a bit misunderstanding of what the votes are I feel. Soulcake is a good enough GM that any truly ooc decision would either not be an offered choice in the first place, or visibly warned as such either with Snorri's thought on it, or explicitly note by Soulcake.

Outside of that, by the very nature of us playing as Snorri, whatever choice we vote on is, by definition, in-character because Snorri's character is actively being shaped by Soulcake and our votes.

So it boils down to this; vote not for what you think he is like. Vote for what you want to see him becomes. Either choice can offer interesting development in the future, I think.
 
@soulcake
A question concerning Gronti construction, and apologies if someone else wrote the same thing earlier (I can't find an equivalent with the search function); If Snorri and co. built a Bloodthirster or bigger sized Gronti entirely out of gromril or adamant, with no weapons or other equipment, how many 3-rune sections could we fit on it? I will freely admit that I'm trying to munchkin just how much badass we can shove into a theoretical Dragon Gronti.

Regardless of what the answer to that question is, here's a list of runic combos I would like to propose. I did not see them in the google doc as of 30-ish minutes ago.

Weapon Runic Combo - Perfect Vengeance - Master Rune of Currents, Rune of Might, Rune of Parrying (Good is the grudge struck out the moment it is made. Better is the grudge struck out before it begins.)
(Any enemy attempts to attack the user of this runic combo are likely to be parried. If successfully parried, the attacker immediately suffers damage equivalent to a successful counter-strike from the rune user, plus a proportionate amount of their own attack. IE, something like an enemy taking a swing at a dawi and the dawi in question counters by smashing a hammer into the enemy's hand. Can potentially result in silly shit like a dawi smashing a cannonball out of the air before it hits (Rune of Might FTW)).

Banner Runic Combo - Twisted Tunnels - Master Rune of Taunting, Rune of Misdirection, Rune of Sanctuary (Ever have the enemies of the Dawi sought to steal their works. Ever have they died in the dark before they even see a single outpost, much less a vault.)
(This runic combo inspires a combination of greed and wrath, forcing enemies to target the wielder of this combo before better targets. Creates constantly shifting illusions that lead enemies to aim their attacks at nothing, or against their own allies if they are unlucky. Magic cast against the combo wielder are more likely to be dispelled or be redirected in similar fashion.)

Engineering Runic Combo - Ancestor's Grace - Master Rune of Improved Waking, Rune of Forging, Rune of Preparation (Be it grudges or gears, Valaya and Morgrim are the hearthkeepers of the Dawi. Under their watchful eye are the works of heart and hand brought into harmony.)
(Takes the effects of the Improved Master Rune of Waking and raises the performance level at least a few more notches. Eliminates the need for basic maintenance both mechanical and runic. Creates a very slow self repair function via the assimilation of material; IE, a Gronti losing a leg could, over the course of decades, replace that leg entirely on its own by consuming stone or metals via touch contact.)

Talismanic Runic Combo - Honored Scales - Master Rune of Dragonform (will require research as it is currently undiscovered), Rune of Brotherhood, Rune of Calm (There was a time, in the days of the Ancestors, when Drak and Dawi created fine works together. Such fellowship was lost to Drakk greed, but that strength could be found again.)
(Allows the wielder of this rune to become a fully functional, full sized dragon for a limited time. There is no risk of losing one's mind to draconic instincts, or of getting locked into draconic form without outside intervention (IE, enemy magic bullshit). The strength of this form, and/or the amount of time that can be spent in dragon form, is increased when working together with other Dawi.)

EDIT: not sure how double spoiler happened. Fixed

EDIT 2: Workshopped the name and description for the weapon combo
 
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Banner Runic Combo - Twisted Tunnels - Master Rune of Taunting, Rune of Misdirection, Rune of Sanctuary (Ever have the enemies of the Dawi sought to steal their works. Ever have they died in the dark before they even see a single outpost, much less a vault.)
(This runic combo inspires a combination of greed and wrath, forcing enemies to target the wielder of this combo before better targets. Creates constantly shifting illusions that lead enemies to aim their attacks at nothing, or against their own allies if they are unlucky. Magic cast against the combo wielder are more likely to be dispelled or be redirected in similar fashion.)
I think you're more likely to only likely to get the second part of the desired effect (and the taunt effect of course), theres nothing in there to create illusions really unless we've got a WoG post somewhere that that is what Misdirection does as a narrative effect.

I'm also cautious about the Waking effect. Gronti are hard as hell to combo and I think that only effects with strong life related effects are likely to synergise. And Repair is a seperate rune, feels more like repairs would be more like the solution than regeneration, like the gronti was capable of recarving and attaching a new leg.

I do like the parrying combo, although I think the name could use workshopping.
 
A question concerning Gronti construction, and apologies if someone else wrote the same thing earlier (I can't find an equivalent with the search function); If Snorri and co. built a Bloodthirster or bigger sized Gronti entirely out of gromril or adamant, with no weapons or other equipment, how many 3-rune sections could we fit on it? I will freely admit that I'm trying to munchkin just how much badass we can shove into a theoretical Dragon Gronti.
Just one of these sections as you describe it.

Im flexible with the aesthetics of this theoretical Dragon Gronti within reason, but mechanically speaking you have to pay the corresponding Adamant/Gromril cost of each piece of equipment.

So if you only spent enough Adamant to make the body you get 3 Runes(more like 2 since you need Master Rune of Waking) to work with.

You pay the Adamant cost of say a weapon, but specify that the Gronti's claws are whats being inscribed and for it to look natural then I'll finagle and accept it. But at the end of the day you still have to pay however many bars it is to make a "weapon."
 
[X] The Vanguard. Where you're arguably your most effective. Also where Vragni has been putting himself for several decades now. Is it worth the potential headache?

[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] Let them come to you. Random Encounter.

[X] [Line:] In general. There has only been one, and with Valaya as your witness, there will only ever be one. From the moment you wed you belonged to each other, and not even death would have you break that oath.
 
Just one of these sections as you describe it.

Im flexible with the aesthetics of this theoretical Dragon Gronti within reason, but mechanically speaking you have to pay the corresponding Adamant/Gromril cost of each piece of equipment.

So if you only spent enough Adamant to make the body you get 3 Runes(more like 2 since you need Master Rune of Waking) to work with.

You pay the Adamant cost of say a weapon, but specify that the Gronti's Claws are whats being inscribed and for it to look natural then I'll finagle and accept it. But at the end of the day you still have to pay however many bars it is to make a "weapon."
About what I expected. So going by the table;
32-50(?) ish bars for the body, since you said Karstah's proposal was the size of an old Star Dragon, which I think is bigger than a bloodthirster
3 bars minimum for the "Weapons" - claws, tail, fangs, and wings, fluffed as only runing the edges/spinal ridge/wing edge. More if you want to create more weapon rune sections.
12 bars for armor plating - I'm thinking the Mountainsouled combo developed earlier is the best bet
3-12(?) bars to build up the wings as a "banner"
3-12(?) bars for a "core" of assorted mechanical stuff - gears, pulleys, other bullshit - to house the engineering rune
3 bars or equivalent for gold, jewels, and other ornamentation that can house the talismanic runes.

I think you're more likely to only likely to get the second part of the desired effect (and the taunt effect of course), theres nothing in there to create illusions really unless we've got a WoG post somewhere that that is what Misdirection does as a narrative effect.

I'm also cautious about the Waking effect. Gronti are hard as hell to combo and I think that only effects with strong life related effects are likely to synergise. And Repair is a seperate separate rune, feels more like repairs would be more like the solution than regeneration, like the gronti was capable of recarving and attaching a new leg.

I do like the parrying combo, although I think the name could use workshopping.
I don't mind if the runic combos are worked out to be somewhat different than what I wrote. I'm guestimating a fair amount of it based on either a lack of info on how the runes work in the google doc (how does the Misdirection Rune make them miss?) or based on the improved effects listed in the previously established combos.

I rationalized the Ancestor's Grace combo as I did because it's canon (AFAIK, don't mind being proven wrong) you don't actually need another rune besides the Rune of Waking to make them get up and moving. It's also canon (IIRC) that the more anatomically functional a Gronti is, the stronger/more efficient the Rune of Waking becomes. So the Forging rune serves as a sort of lubricant to make the Waking Rune function better by removing structural flaws and imperfections, and the Preparation Rune does it again by ensuring minor irritants don't clog shit up.

The self repair function was just spitballing. Waking up inanimate material + minor self-repair by Preparation = funky monkey shit.

I kind of named the combos whatever came to mind first. If someone's got something better, do mention it.
 
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I rationalized the Ancestor's Grace combo as I did because it's canon (AFAIK, don't mind being proven wrong) you don't actually need another rune besides the Rune of Waking to make them get up and moving. It's also canon (IIRC) that the more anatomically functional a Gronti is, the stronger/more efficient the Rune of Waking becomes. So the Forging rune serves as a sort of lubricant to make the Waking Rune function better by removing structural flaws and imperfections, and the Preparation Rune does it again by ensuring minor irritants don't clog shit up.
We've come at this from the same point and gone different places. Starting from the observation that more lifelike Gronti are more efficient is where I went to looking for Runes with Life synergy, whereas you went to runes that make it more lifelike.
 
We've come at this from the same point and gone different places. Starting from the observation that more lifelike Gronti are more efficient is where I went to looking for Runes with Life synergy, whereas you went to runes that make it more lifelike.
Indeed. To a certain extent, I don't want to bring more Life to this particular Gronti - only better Function. Not without expending even more Adamant (and for this I would insist Adamant with at least t3 reagents) to give it an improved Rune of Translation for fluent Khazalid, and some combination of another two to make it fully sentient.

It's kind of like how a half-trained craftsman is the worst kind - just enough skill to do things, not enough skill to make sure it doesn't blow up in anyone's face. I don't want a Gronti to have enough Life for Chaos and other shit to fuck with it, and not enough Life to resist such fuckery on its own terms.
 
[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.
[X] [Support:] Fully Support the proposal.
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] A band of Runesmiths muttering to each other at levels they think are quiet.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
 
[X] The Vanguard. Where you're arguably your most effective. Also where Vragni has been putting himself for several decades now. Is it worth the potential headache?

[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] Let them come to you. Random Encounter.

[X] [Line:] In general. There has only been one, and with Valaya as your witness, there will only ever be one. From the moment you wed you belonged to each other, and not even death would have you break that oath.


Vragni is interesting to mess with
 
Rune of Sharpening: When placed on a quiver or sheathe, it causes the contained item to sharpen to the limit of it's material, also mending any minor damage.
This Rune allows for Rangers to recover their crossbow bolts and reuse them more often, and not have to waste time sharpening them manually. It is useful in other situations however.

Rune of Echoing: Replicates sound it "hears". Can do so at higher or lower volume

Rune of True North: When activated, the Runed item will orientate itself to point directly northwards
A minor rune. Useful in some mechanisms, or when you're lost. (Rune of True South also available)
Sharpening: added.
Echoing: a few sound Runes can do this already.
True North: Will need to check if Dwarfs already have Compasses, lemme get back to you.
Stupid rule of pride :V

Ironically, Vragni's interpretation of the rule feels like such a waste of time.
How to advance runecraft without actually advancing runecraft.
Vragni is an extreme example, but it feels disingenuous to say he'd make 50 Runes of variant direction. More likely he'd start adding other Runes, because again, a combination of two or more Runes also gets around the Rule of Pride. Its why I said exponential growth, since you can eventually switch out just 1 Rune and every other combination using that Rune you've switched out technically becomes fair game from a Conservative perspective.

The idea is that "I have used this Rune, I can no longer use it and mixing and matching has become untenable, I should find a new way to do this. And as I am a perfectionist and diva it will be better," and thus drives innovation forward. Vragni's tolerance for it is higher, but not infinitely so.
Then they'd invent the rune of True East and rune of True West to get around it for the next two compasses. Then the Rune of True North and South and Rune of True East and West and rune of True 89 degrees and turn the knob a little and so on and take a century to make all the different minor runes.

Snorri meanwhile just gets a 10 part research chain that ends with the Rune of Compass and Master Rune of GPS and spams it everywhere.
Again, more likely this theoretical Runesmith gets to a point where he develops a Rune that points to a specific place. Then moves on to a Rune that one can pick and choose what it will point to. Then it keeps track of multiple points. Then multiple points all at once. Then from there continuously improving all the way to GPS. He is FORCED to innovate, whereas you CHOOSE to.

Same ending. And you have no idea if its faster or not.

But like, ya'll get traits from researching the same thing over and over, making it faster, more efficient and rewarding for yourself.

So why wouldn't the same happen for Rune development?
 
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But like, ya'll get traits from researching the same thing over and over, making it faster, more efficient and rewarding for yourself.

So why wouldn't the same happen for Rune development?
I was actually thinking of what kind of traits Vragni would have to manage apprentices so efficiently while still iterating runes.

He's what Snorri might have been if he'd focused more on teaching/productivity, rather than productivity/esoteric.

I also suspect that even without the radical/conservative split, they would either have become the best of friends, or rivals (too much of the same)
 
True North: Will need to check if Dwarfs already have Compasses, lemme get back to you.
Again, more likely this theoretical Runesmith gets to a point where he develops a Rune that points to a specific place. Then moves on to a Rune that one can pick and choose what it will point to. Then it keeps track of multiple points. Then multiple points all at once. Then from there continuously improving all the way to GPS.
Maybe this falls under the category of 'further research', but I would think the purpose of carving a compass/map Rune that could be used for protection or smacking things harder would be a bit more than just... mundanity. Maybe this is the 40k in me acting out, but I see the best use of that Rune to retain true directions when Warp Fuckery is afoot and the landscape/magnetic reading shifts around you. Like, say a Firmir conjures up a rainstorm that drops visibility to arm length and the compass just chases lightning. A Rune of True North ignores that and says "no, this is how reality still works, that's north".

Am I making any sense?
 
@soulcake

I couldn't find a Rune with this effect yet:

Rune of Bedrock:
An Armor Rune that connects the bearer firmly to the ground, making them nearly immovable (particularly if standing on stone). Can be activated and deactivated quickly.


A simple trick to strenghten the shieldwall and make even a smaller group of dwarves stand against the sheer push of larger forces. Propably not enough to change the battle by itself, but staying in formation is always better than not staying in formation.
 
To me what feels like the difference between us and Vragi is how we see the world and magic in general. He seems to see runes as this isolated system that works to infinite engineering refinement, where as Snori goes interdisciplinary.
  1. When we study the winds it is as a (meta)physicist
  2. When we ponder the nature of the ever-queen we have to ponder the culture and gods of the elves
  3. When we study hearthstones it is as a natural philosopher
I would go so far as to say that if you want the most new runes Vragi has the right of it, but if you want the most useful runes... er maybe lift your eyes off the anvil and smell the grass. Maybe you will invent a grass-growing rune. :V
 
What I love about how Runesmiths Radical/Conservative split unintentionally developed is that, like the Engineers, its almost entirely about adherence to the Rules of the Guild.

But the fun part is the dichotomy between the two. Whereas the Engineers Guild has tempered innovation, the Runesmiths Guild arguably encourages it.

A Radical Runesmith will generally act very conservatively with the Runes he uses because he can afford to, whereas a Conservative is kick flipping about making new Runes because he cannot continue to do his job if he doesn't.

And so the tragedy of the Modern Guild is that it gets the worst aspects of both sides. The conservative Rune choice of the Radicals but without the freedom to reuse Runes, and the crippling rule adherence of the Conservatives but without the knowledge or impetus to create new Runes.

Suffer with me. Also shout outs to the poster (I think @ArchAIngel ) who first posited that Runesmith Rules = forcing Innovation idea.
 
Same ending. And you have no idea if its faster or not.

But like, ya'll get traits from researching the same thing over and over, making it faster, more efficient and rewarding for yourself.

So why wouldn't the

And your positive he's not some kind of SI, human reincarnate, soul swapped individual? 🤨
I still have my suspicions about Vragni.🧐

I'm kidding of course.🤪
 
And so the tragedy of the Modern Guild is that it gets the worst aspects of both sides. The conservative Rune choice of the Radicals but without the freedom to reuse Runes, and the crippling rule adherence of the Conservatives but without the knowledge or impetus to create new Runes.
And then you have Valma's solution to the Chaos Dwarf problem.
She went so far radical she came up with a Conservative style solution: New Runes for a New Problem :V

Edit:
Conservatives: Make many new runes to solve problems better
Radical: Use the runes you know (and a few new ones) to solve new problems
Valma: Make many new runes to solve new problems
 
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Again, more likely this theoretical Runesmith gets to a point where he develops a Rune that points to a specific place. Then moves on to a Rune that one can pick and choose what it will point to. Then it keeps track of multiple points. Then multiple points all at once. Then from there continuously improving all the way to GPS.
I want this, please.
Rune of Just-Over-There will have some use, I'm sure of it
 
You are a vegan, you generally don't give a hoot about what someone thinks or does and you largely keep to yourself unless asked specifically about it but you have very strong opinions when pushed.

Snorri is essentially a meat-loving obligate carnivore constantly having barbeques and offering meat to everyone around you and being especially flamboyant about it and you live right next to his house. All in all, it's not enough to kill him over but it certainly grates when he's going around everywhere with "eat meat," stickers and yelling to the world that he loves the taste of animal flesh.

Also the smell of his barbeques wafts from his house to yours frequently due to prevailing winds.

It's not an entirely accurate summation of the situation and heavily favours Vragni's POV, but suffice it to say that Snorri is pressing a lot of Vragni's annoyance buttons very hard and very frequently
I think a fasting metaphor could work. Snorri is the equivalent of a loose muslim chatting about how great their lunch was to a bunch of stricter colleagues currently going through Ramadan.
 
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
[X] A messenger from Kraka Krum, bearing a letter with the seal of Ogra Wardmaker.
[X] Brynna has been meaning to ask about the eye.
[X] A band of Runesmiths muttering to each other at levels they think are quiet.
[X] [Line:] Being forced. Do you have it in you to open your heart again? Maybe. It may never come to pass and you may never actually meet anyone who you would even consider being romantic with, but you wouldn't dismiss the idea if it ever did happen.
[X] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
Freyda will likely see her proposal agreed to, but anything beyond the minimum will be on her and her alone. Your word carries weight, and you suppose this is as good a use for it as any. Gain +1 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. Unlocks Options. Cost: [30 Favours from Kraka Dorden, Ornsmotek and Ravnsvake, 10 Favours with Kraka Drakk]
 
[X] [Line:] In general. There has only been one, and with Valaya as your witness, there will only ever be one. From the moment you wed you belonged to each other, and not even death would have you break that oath.
[x] [Support:] Partially Support the proposal.
[X] The Statue. You're fairly sure that being around the big Rune statue with your equipment will only improve its capabilities.
 
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Some structural Runes, since they are the fewest:

Master Rune of the Lightning Bringer: Lightning will fly from the pillar this is marked upon, smiting anything that attempts egress from the skies. Very good for clearing airspace.
Rune of Comfort: Engraved on the walls, this rune keeps a room a reasonably comfortable temperature pleasant for all the various dwarfs who might enter.
Rune of Egress: A Rune that allows a section of rock varying in size with the copies of the rune placed to open and shut like a door, sealing closed when not activated. Good if you would like a secret exit. It has not been tested whether or not it allows in air.

All three were the invention of Modi Landwalker, who used them to create a mountain retreat.
 
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