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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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roobee said:
if they are only summoned when leaf is directly attacked. can summoners summon the army fast enough to be useful in the case of an attack? you can summon multiple summons at once. but elite jounin will have a high chakra cost
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Summoning is useful in a combat timeframe, so as long as you have enough warning it should be easy, but that is true of everything, if the enemy can take the entirety of Leaf by surprise in a concerted attack, then Leaf never had any hope of surviving from the start. There are some roadblocks to resolve, but if the problem is "Noburi and Asuma are too far to each other"...well, if the only thing stopping Asuma from having a army of summons to defend Leaf is the housing market, then that is his problem to resolve.
 
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roobee said:
Summoning once is fast enough to be useful in combat. 10x is questionable . And only doing it once isn't an army
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The summoner would be outside of combat, with escort(Possibly made of summons), Noburi + Chakra batteries, sending summons after summons against the enemy. I don't see why summoning ten times would be a problem. The Rock fort task force went back the the 7Path, recharged, returned and re-summoned again in a reasonable timeframe. The defensive Summoning Army would be even faster.
Is there a reason you think it's not doable?
 
Lord Marshal said:
The summoner would be outside of combat, with escort(Possibly made of summons), Noburi + Chakra batteries, sending summons after summons against the enemy. I don't see why summoning ten times would be a problem. The Rock fort task force went back the the 7Path, recharged, returned and re-summoned again in a reasonable timeframe. The defensive Summoning Army would be even faster.
Is there a reason you think it's not doable?
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Is there any reason that we aren't proposing the strategy to use the summon army as an offensive tool again? Since we want Mist to join the objection that originally were presented no longer apply. So we could just destroy Rock and win the war now.
 
Oneiros said:
Is there any reason that we aren't proposing the strategy to use the summon army as an offensive tool again? Since we want Mist to join the objection that originally were presented no longer apply. So we could just destroy Rock and win the war now.
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Well, the primary reason is that Oro is important because he's the difference between survival and annihilation Leaf, so if we want to become important enough to be protected, we need to usurp his place.
The secondary concern are:
1) The Offensive summoning army would require a lot of ninja, probably a lot of genin, getting close to Rock without being attacked
2) The Clan will probably help to protect the place it's studying the Great Seal, but not murder the enemies of Leaf.
3) Noburi would need to take the field and we, personally, don't want to risk him (More hivemind related than actually real).

roobee said:
In case the battle ends before you get to your 10th summon. Either from victory or retreat. Ninja combat is fast. Even the assault on akatsuki only lasted a few rounds, although dunno if the rounds had same time scale as normal rounds
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A battle turn is 3 seconds, IIRC. And i strongly doubt the Nagi battle lasted...6 seconds? Ten summonings would require 30 seconds without counting recharging. So it seems doable with a lot of preparation. But consider that the S-rankers Summon would take the field with the first summoning, the EJonins with the seconds and so on, the most valuable Summonings are the fastest.
 
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Lord Marshal said:
The Offensive summoning army would require a lot of ninja, probably a lot of genin, getting close to Rock without being attacked
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That objection is solved by bring in Mist that we are actively planning on doing
Lord Marshal said:
2) The Clan will probably help to protect the place it's studying the Great Seal, but not murder the enemies of Leaf.
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Against this objection we can just do smaller mixed waves of summons instead of one giant attack. Like we did against the fort but spread out between every summoner
Lord Marshal said:
Noburi would need to take the field and we, personally, don't want to risk him (More hivemind related than actually real).
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Sure but Kei is already being deployed and we don't care about that.
 
Oneiros said:
That objection is solved by bring in Mist that we are actively planning on doing
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That is the Summoning Army we already proposed and was shot down. If we want to convince Asuma, we need to propose something different. He knows about the double-Wakahisa Summoning Army and can implement it when he wants. We need to offer something else if we want to receive protection from Orochimaru.
It's a cool idea, but let's remember the current priority before trying something else.
 
Lord Marshal said:
That is the Summoning Army we already proposed and was shot down. If we want to convince Asuma, we need to propose something different. He knows about the double-Wakahisa Summoning Army and can implement it when he wants. We need to offer something else if we want to receive protection from Orochimaru.
It's a cool idea, but let's remember the current priority before trying something else.
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Well I offered my two solutions to it. Plus figure if we could win the war then there wouldn't be a reason to let Oro murder us.

Also personally think that keeping summoners on defense greatly increases the chance that we lose the war
 
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Trying to summarizing Oneiros' ideas in to a plan, can someone please make this better enough to be a real plan? I'd vote for it if it was actually... like... possible

[] Action plan: Summon your problems away
  • Tell Asuma we're tired of the Oro craziness. Let's go win the war tomorrow & then he can actually save us from Oro
  • Ask all the summoners to spend today getting as many one-time summons as possible, for tomorrow at sunset.
    • Use the rock facility example as a way to drum up temp contracts
    • Promise bigger prizes for the best summons this time - a prize for most Rock ninja kills, an MVS(most valuable summon) prize, best support summon, ...
      • Again, check how much the tower will add to the prizes
      • Can we offer land to summons? Do they care about human path land?
      • Offer jutsu to prize winners
      • Lots of small prizes
      • Charge an entry fee to pay for the prizes - summons have to pay a small amount to compete, and we use the fee to make the prizes better. Entry fee should be covered by the payout for a single assist
    • Emphasize how it's a public contest between clans, not one-on-one contracts.
  • We will take Noburi, a few hundred genin, and all the summoners except Oro and Tsundae to Rock
    • TBD: How do we get them as close to rock as possible without them being detected? Mist?
    • Should we take Naruto too?
    • Bring party supplies for the evening. Like those picknickers in the civil war.
  • Flood rock with summons all within one hour. End war at sunset.
    • Pangolins on tunnel duty, to make sure the summons can get to Rock.
    • Do we kill everyone? Kids? Uplift vs revenge-timebomb
    • Bring lots of bandaids for the summoners.
  • When the war is over, Asuma can deal with Oro and keep us safe.
 
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Shrooms said:
It was shot down because we couldn't involve Mist, but now we're asking to involve Mist so...
And we're (sort of?) one of Asuma's advisors now, there's no harm in reminding him, or another advisor like Choza/Shikamaru of the idea now that it's more feasible
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"Involve" Mist is one thing and "reveal one of your most powerful manouvers" is another. I repeat, Mist is not an friend in the Hokage's mind. More importantly, we would take two S-rankers head on
We can propose it, but i strongly suggest sanity checking with Shikamaru AND proposing the two ideas as different plans.

But attacking Rock needs the heavy hitter of the clans, the we cannot convince with the "Leaf is under attack" excuse.
 
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Lord Marshal said:
"reveal one of your most powerful manouvers"
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They will likely hear about the battle of five clans much like everyone else will
Lord Marshal said:
More importantly, we would take two S-rankers head on
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This part I agree with, Rock isn't going to just idle by while their village is getting assaulted. Tsunade and Oro being present + boss summons helps, but we have to ask if it's worth chancing either of them especially since we're facing an unknown number of support Jonin. Rock may get bolder in their attacks and go straight for Leaf if we escalate, too. It still might be worth it but there's a lot of factors to weigh.
Lord Marshal said:
i strongly suggest sanity checking with Shikamaru
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I mean he made the pitch for our last assault plan (or I guess, he said he would but it ended up being Hazou anyways?) so I figure talking to him is actually good enough, no need to waste Asuma's time unless the other strategists support it.
 
i figured I'd give my thoughts, and suggested revisions on the runner up last voting cycle as it's probably getting voted in relatively quickly after voting opens
FaintlySorcerous said:
Meeting:
  • We'll petition Tsunade protection and support.
  • We're going to talk to her and then Orochimaru with her. He's too smart to think he can just kidnap us. Either he's crazy or there's been a miscommunication.
Kei, Snowflake, Shikamaru:
  • Orochimaru's interested in hacking the Frozen Skein.
  • In addition to threats to personal safety, this seems Extremely Bad: you can't caldera Orochimaru.
  • We'd like to delegate getting Naruto to support/protect Kei to this group.
  • We're requesting resources, coordination, and optimization of the below plan. Loop in Ami?
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So the plan is to have Hazou go to Tsunade and have someone Naruto doesn't hate go to him. Sounds pretty good. I don't really understand what this means: "In addition to threats to personal safety, this seems Extremely Bad: you can't caldera Orochimaru." Perhaps it should be rephrased so the intent is more clear?
FaintlySorcerous said:
The plan:
  • Approach Tsunade. Buy 15 minutes of her time, somehow.
  • Detail our interactions with Orochimaru and our conclusions: he will kidnap/experiment on Hazo/Kei.
    • Are we misreading the situation?
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I think it might be worth mentioning here that going to Asuma is not an option in the same way we did last update. Tsunade will understand.

FaintlySorcerous said:
  • As far as we can see, if he kidnaps us, either he defects and Leaf is defeated, or he remains and civil war breaks out.
    • We can't fight him or avoid him forever, and we can't invent compelling explanations for seal memorization/cognitively-independent SCs.
    • Do you see it another way? Do you have solutions?
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I'd probably change "civil war" to "civil disorder" I don't think war is guaranteed over it, but unrest certainly is. I'd also probably put a bullet point here where we mention that we failed to be uninteresting. As that was Tsunade's previous advice.
FaintlySorcerous said:
We want to have a conversation with him where he actually talks to us.
  • He's too smart to think he can kidnap us and get away with it.
    • Was he very awkwardly asking us to volunteer?
    • Does he just not care?
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I'd probably go with "does he just not care about the larger repercussions?" rather than the current phrasing, as he clearly cares about his research.
FaintlySorcerous said:
  • We think cooperation is possible. We have some goals in common: immortality research (although we find his methods repulsive), we want his help with the Great Seal, and we want to know more about our bloodline.
    • Is voluntary vivisection at Leaf General with witnesses and a guarantee we won't be harmed viable? Would he go for it?
    • Is Orochimaru someone we can work with, period?
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These are good questions, no notes.
FaintlySorcerous said:
  • We want to understand, but if we can't understand him, it closes the door on our voluntary participation in his research, and the involuntary sort will bring the village down on his head.
    • We'd also like to establish that he can't successfully threaten us. He's absolutely powerful enough to do whatever he wants to us, but that doesn't mean we have to kowtow.
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I'd change this up some. "For the good of the village, we'd like to establish persuade him that he can't successfully threaten us with vivisection or steal Clan Secrets, the Hokage is not an option. Will you help us guarantee that?"

EDIT: Changed to pursuade since I'm not sure we want to make a public declaration. I'm not sure we don't want to either
FaintlySorcerous said:
    • Is any of that sane?
    • What's your price for accompanying us?
  • Talk to Tsunade, given Thinker approval, sufficient QM spoons.
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Sir Stompy said:
"For the good of the village, we'd like to establish that he can't successfully threaten us with vivisection or steal Clan Secrets, the Hokage is not an option. Will you help us guarantee that?"
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Note that establishing something for the good of the village implies making a public declaration, since otherwise he can do those things and other people won't know they're supposed to have protection from them.
 
@Lord Marshal
I included summon army
[x] Action Plan: Do your part and spread the word
Suggest (with hazou pilot deciding tone/phrasing):
  • Kei goes to convince pantsa to hold the embassy hostage. When she returns Snowflake leaves immediately to meet with Orochimaru. While they do this we finish preparations.
  • Snowflake meeting Oro
    • first says she is the cognitively independent shadow clone. and that any intimidation will pop her fragile body
    • inform cognitive independence is because she does not possess her progenitor's bloodline, frozen skein
    • then focus on listening/observing oro. if oro:
      • asks why kei isn't here. admit because she fears oro will harm her. so she is making preparations for oro to examine her in a place of her choosing with witnesses. then ask does oro intend to harm kei? ask the question in as clear a way as possible to prevent misunderstandings, since anko said oro is socially blind. then ask if he would like to reschedule the meeting?
      • asks questions or wishes to do examinations. obey. unless the answers are clan secrets or very important things. then refuse and clearly explain why.
    • use judgement call on if/when to
      • inform oro of kei's wellbeing tied to 7path embassy, noburi's services, and isan diplomacy (takahashi chose leaf in large part due to kei's influence)
      • that mari only lied to oro since she feared for kei's life
  • Kei remember to stay within shadow clone range. Yuno and Kagome stays with her. If snowflake pops Kagome and Kei run immediately towards some safe location (decide where so everyone knows where it is), unless while running the memories suggest a better plan. When arrived Kagome fortifies it. Yuno runs to inform the others this occurred.
  • Let Oro examine Kei in a place of our choosing. With witnesses.
    • Akane and Mari go to convince tsunade and naruto respectively to be witnesses/guards. Once naruto recruited have him uses shadow clones to set up communication network with everyone after finding them.
  • Noburi tells asuma he holds his barrel hostage. Asks Asuma for info on Oro, even if it is classified. Ask asuma for tower officers for witneses for public examination.
    • Brings up defensive summon army idea. get army of s-rank/jonin/ejonin summons contracts, only able to use if leaf attacked. noburi will provide chakra to summon army. but if kei dies, noburi won't help with this.
      • carrots to convince summons
        • if leaf is destroyed then unable to help with great seal.
        • leaf will send send messages to crows and sharks of great seal threat. asking akatsuki to send sasori to help.
  • Hazou informs Ami. she will leave leaf soon.
  • Mari sends a shadow clone to inform the Nara of the plan.
  • Have the other goketsu nin (haru, atomu, rei, etc.) do something? How much to inform them?

[x] Action Plan: Deterrence and negotiation
Suggest (with hazou pilot deciding tone/phrasing):
  • Kei goes to convince pantsa to hold the embassy hostage. When she returns Snowflake leaves immediately to meet with Orochimaru. While they do this we finish preparations.
  • Snowflake meeting Oro
    • first says she is the cognitively independent shadow clone. and that any intimidation will pop her fragile body
    • inform cognitive independence is because she does not possess her progenitor's bloodline, frozen skein
    • then focus on listening/observing oro. if oro asks why kei isn't here. admit because she fears oro will harm her. so she does not wish to meet him. then ask does oro intend to harm kei? ask the question in as clear a way as possible to prevent misunderstandings, since anko said oro is socially blind. Then mention kei could be convinced to see oro. But He need to guarantees kei's wellbeing, and offer incentives. Ex: jutsu, Permanent body for snowflake, work on the great seal
  • use judgement call on if/when to
    • inform oro of kei's wellbeing tied to 7path embassy, noburi's services, isan diplomacy (takahashi chose leaf in large part due to kei's influence), and naruto/Tsunade beating him up
    • that mari only lied to oro since she feared for kei's lifel
  • Kei remember to stay within shadow clone range. Yuno and Kagome stays with her. If snowflake pops Kagome and Kei run immediately towards some safe location (decide where so everyone knows where it is), unless while running the memories suggest a better plan. When arrived Kagome fortifies it. Yuno runs to inform the others this occurred.
  • Akane and Mari go to convince tsunade and naruto respectively to tell oro they will beat him up if he kidnaps kei. Once naruto recruited have him uses shadow clones to set up communication network with everyone after finding them.
  • Noburi tells asuma he holds his barrel hostage. Asks Asuma for info on Oro, even if it is classified.
    • Brings up defensive summon army idea. get army of s-rank/jonin/ejonin summons contracts, only able to use if leaf attacked. noburi will provide chakra to summon army. but if kei dies, noburi won't help with this.
    • carrots to convince summons
      • if leaf is destroyed then unable to help with great seal.
        • leaf will send send messages to crows and sharks of great seal threat. asking akatsuki to send sasori to help.
  • Hazou informs Ami. she will leave leaf soon.
  • Mari sends a shadow clone to inform the Nara of the plan.
  • Have the other goketsu nin (haru, atomu, rei, etc.) do something? How much to inform them?
 
I should have clarified that "Suicidal" included suicidal plans for Kei, ect... but i didn't. This is on me and i will vote for both plans, but @roobee i want to point out that the first plan will have the Goketsu refusing and screaming at Hazou he's insane.

[x] Action Plan: Deterrence and negotiation
[x] Action Plan: Do your part and spread the word

Also, i'm adding my own plan.
With Ami sanity check and summoning Army.

[X] Action Plan: The Power of Meetings
Wordcount:378

  • Close Meeting:
    • Kei's rage is understandable, Mari did put her in danger, but she put herself in worse danger and Kei wasn't a sacrifice. Oro is going to touch Kei over you cold, booby-trapped body.
    • The reasoning goes for everyone, yes...Yuno too. We're friend AND family, family we choose for ourselves.
    • What Mari did was unfair. Because the world is unfair, this is why we will change it.
  • Meeting two(Ami,Shikamaru, Ino,Uplift): Explain problem and political situation+ Possible Solutions(Follow OPSEC, check before hand with Shikamaru and/or Uplift when needed, in case, do private meeting).
    • Oro is vital to Leaf's survival, let's change that: Summoning Army -Noburi's Armada(Your brother will get the recognition he deserves)
      • Noburi+Summoner+Chakra batteries means Summoning without returning to the 7th Path: A continuous stream of summons with 1 Hour of autonomy.
      • The problems: The clan's cooperation, solutions:
        • Use Konoha's place as the only place working to stop the Great Seal
        • Use a Crusade-like contract to establish the safety of the Clan doing it.
        • Establish clear rules and limitations to be used only in case of direct attack to Leaf.
        • Leaf can also offer help with the Great Seal in form of contacting other Villages OR actors.
      • Other problems, such as Noburi and Asuma being too far, but if the biggest problem is the housing market? That seems something the Hokage can deal with.
    • Reveal how SC-Bloodline interaction: A bloodline-type "menomation" that makes it possible.
      • "Crippling" himself for the benefit of a Clone whose idea he can't understand shouldn't be appealing for Oro
      • Every bloodline doesn't interact with SC, it should be easy for Oro to find other targets.
      • Finally, we could ask Asuma for a promise that if Oro behaves(Generally, not only with Kei) Thinkers enemies will be given to him.
        • it could be extremely problematic for Shikamaru, so you're willing to modify the proposal.
    • Convince Tsunade and Naruto to protect us/confront Oro with us.
      • How?
  • Finally, contact Oro now or later?
  • Ino(Private,you,her, Akane), is everything ok? You know the current days were stressful, anything you can do to help or bring to the meeting? Be ready to help her or simply give emotional support.
  • Sanity check with everyone and execute preparations.
 
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