Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Kiba · Jul 5, 2021

Didn't we already apply HOWS seal or at least tells the spider how they work?

Shrooms · Jul 5, 2021

faflec said:
So would this also include Noburi's chakra water via barrel? Such as...him covering the scar-area with his chakra water and repeatedly moving the 'chakra' portion back and forth around the edges of the scar?

Without stating that we wish to make any Declarations...I think these tests are the most important:

Examining the effects of implosion seals, which could theoretically transport air from the afterlife-side of the portal to our side.

Checking for chakra use via chakdar seal.

Sticking a Summoning Scroll at it.

I would also like to pitch Summoning Cantelope so he can use Sun element jutsu to illuminate the outline of the rift. Sasuke said he could only see it when the sun was in just the right spot, so Cantelope can put the sun wherever Sasuke needs it. Then we could have him draw the general shape of the rift

Shrooms · Jul 5, 2021

Eisenhelm said:
i thiink we should tell asuma about how the SSSS are related to the liberators army and the hydra foundation even if it's out of screen.

Jiraiya knew as spymaster, and then as Hokage. I would honestly be astonished if Asuma didn't have access to that information already, and go through it before deciding to let these ~~freaks~~ strangers into Leaf

Kiba said:
or at least tells the spider how they work?

I think this part is true, actually, but a refresher of what Hazou will need to do can't hurt

Shrooms said:
[X] Kabuto Gets Some New Friends
Word Count: 199

Kabuto

Don't violate OPSEC or reveal information that hasn't been cleared.

Kabuto, just so you know, the SSSSS will likely be joining Leaf soon.

We heard they weren't fond of you, so we thought we'd notify you.

Also, here's the most up-to-date and high quality copy of the Great Seal we have, as well as an updated report on the DRAGONWAR.

Feel free to share with Orochimaru if it doesn't bug him.

Kumokogo

Bring HOWS Seals to Arachnid territory, explain how they work.

Pitch Ami's Crusader idea. She's not familiar with 7th path denizens, how could it be improved?

Also, Condor Scouts should be coming by soon.

Explain what Hazou thinks will be needed to recreate the Seal for study. Earthshaping or drawing a topographic map?

If the plan to reach the Great Seal is the same as before, Hazou has timed Implosion Seals for the kamikaze troops to wear.

Take appropriate amount of time to learn how to activate as needed.

Show proper respect.

Hazou isn't expecting much, but in theory the Implosion seals should severely damage lungs if detonated near a Dragon.

Apply the HOWS to the Great Seal, ensure they work, and get out.

Added telling Kabuto about DRAGONWAR if he doesn't already know about it

Halberdier · Jul 5, 2021

RandomOTP said:
@Shrooms...

Possible Projects to add to the list of Ongoing Projects?

Propulsion Seals? Hazou mentioned them to Jiraiya in 118 and he seemed to like them.

Ninja Wire and FSBs to turn the wire into a protective net. Discussed with Jiraiya in 120, to which he says that it would only be feasible over critical infrastructure and buildings, but that it was a fantastic idea overall. Perhaps we should offer it to Asuma (if it hasn't already been done)?

"Auntie" the Librarian mentioned showing Kagome how to make illuminating ink. Possibly used to make artistic (but otherwise useless) fake seals (drawn in illuminating ink that hasn't had the chakra-infusing ritual done to it, as a double-measure of "just in case") across the Goketsu Compound? Leveraged with Kagome to be a red herring, distracting spies and invaders from the real security seals.

In chapter 132, Hazou mentions the idea to Noburi that he cast medical jutsu/ninjutsu through mist (such as Water Whip from inside a cloud, or using medical ninjutsu to slice enemy tendons from unguarded angles). Noburi seemed giddy at the idea and Hazou offered to help experiment (to make up for leaking stuff to the now-dead Minami). I'm not sure if it was followed up on, but Noburi thought it was possible and liked the idea.

In Chapter 133, Kei mentions that there's a town in Wind Country that hires mercenaries to clear the surrounding 30 miles of every chakra beasts, and that the town does this every six months. Kei then says that the town's economic productivity has increased 12fold across the 5 years that they've been doing this, and that the Nara had already begun designs to institute the same thing for Leaf. Given the Collapse, BotG, Shikaku's Death, and a million other things that've happened in the intervening time, maybe we should poke Kei and ask about it?

I like these and will vote in support of follow up, or even just determining how many of these are even still viable.

Inferno Vulpix said:
SC Math for Chapter 445:
@eaglejarl, @Velorien
With Hazou being literally carried around the world, only Kei and Akane continue to FOOM. By the SOP, Kei and Akane are training for 4 and 6 training blocks respectively. With 75 base XP, the SC payouts are:

Kei: +30 XP (75 x0.4)

Akane: +45 XP (75 x0.6)

All previous payouts are accounted for.

Note: Kei does not have Noburi chakra refills on-hand so she is only operating from internal reserves. This means the maximum she can create is 4 clones, each of which last for 1 training block. This can be expected to change next chapter as Kei and Noburi are both in Leaf at the same time again, to a total of 7 training blocks across 7 clones across 2 casts. (to help remember, she's 2 training blocks ahead of Akane in terms of Resolve, but one training block behind Akane in terms of SC level)

I just feel the need to point out how great +45 and +30 XP feels. Love that for stabby sister and punchy partner.

eaglejarl said:
PSA: Good news, bad news, and worse news about the Great Seal.

With the healing of Hazō's Medium consequences, his bloodline access has been restored and he has a clear picture of the Great Seal available to him. He waited several days to start looking at it and even then only very carefully, mentally 'looking away' before really taking in the entire thing. There were some minor issues at first but it's been a couple of weeks and he's now comfortable mentally 'examining' the seal as much as he likes. That's the good news.

The bad news is that he now realizes that, unlike every other seal he has ever seen, the Great Seal is three dimensional. The Iron Nerve stored the relative heights of each segment, the overall layout, and even the texture of the surface, suggesting that all of those factors were important.

The worse news is that no one that either Hazō or Kagome have ever heard of has so much as mentioned the idea of a 3D seal. It's possible it's even against some of the standard lore, meaning that lore is wrong. That means there is no precedent for how such a seal interacts with the Iron Nerve. Hazō doesn't know if there are important factors that the Iron Nerve didn't store, or if some of the ones that it did store are actually not important.

One more tiny bit of good news: The Iron Nerve did in fact store parts of the seal that were occluded from the angle Hazō was looking at, so he's fairly sure that his mental image includes the entire thing.

So at one point I remember reading that the order of brushstrokes makes a significant difference for sealing. I assumed that was for a layering effect (making them technically 3D), but now I'm assuming it is because it minutely changes how the ink of the seal looks and acts. Is that correct?

[X] Training Noburi: I Will Be the Next Tsunade

Flashy WDB would be nice, but the med stuff is much lower than it and comes up more often. Plus, Tsunade is an important character and Noburi stagnating or making decent process will likely factor into her interaction tree at some point.

Inferno Vulpix · Jul 5, 2021

Inferno Vulpix said:
So, we should do something to increase Hazou's ability to depict the Great Seal to the rest of the sealmasters, but largely speaking we're limited to two options: continue making calligraphy representations of it, or get a fine-carving earth jutsu and use that to make a 3D carved-in-stone replica. I figure to help us decide I'll list what I think the pros and cons are and then hold a poll.

Calligraphy:

Con: Imperfect medium, makes it harder to analyze.

Pro: We already have some XP in this, makes it slightly faster to grow.

Pro: We already want calligraphy for our Sealing capabilities in general.

Stonecarving:

Pro: most accurate medium, facilitates best analysis.

Con: Might require Master Earthshaper, and thus more XP investment.

Pro: halfcost for first 10 levels, saving some XP.

Pro: recoup some costs with halfcost on Earth jutsu we level later, like PEA.

There's some definite uncertainty in the Stonecarving route, but we can probably reduce that by actually getting our hands on such a jutsu and analyzing how it works. The main pro for Stonecarving is the true-to-life results but if it turns out to have prohibitive XP costs to pursue relative to grinding Calligraphy then we might want to just suck it up and make do with more accurate drawings.

[] Great Seal Poll: Calligraphy
[] Great Seal Poll: Stonecarving
[] Great Seal Poll: Wait until we know how the jutsu works

Do these seem like good poll options? Let me know if I should add or tweak anything.

Are there any thoughts on this? We've put off this question far too long now, and now is the time when the answer has actually become relevant. We can put it off no longer.

RandomOTP · Jul 5, 2021

[X] Training Noburi: I Will Be the Next Tsunade

RandomOTP · Jul 5, 2021

Inferno Vulpix said:
Are there any thoughts on this? We've put off this question far too long now, and now is the time when the answer has actually become relevant. We can put it off no longer.

MEW Cube, then hammer and chisel it until it's an adequate representation of the Great Seal, scaled down?

Edit: or a stone moulding jutsu. Jiraiya once mentioned that there were Earth element ninja who did the Hokage faces on the mountain, right? Learn the Earth Artisan Jutsu it, level it up, and use it?

Kiba · Jul 5, 2021

Inferno Vulpix said:
Are there any thoughts on this? We've put off this question far too long now, and now is the time when the answer has actually become relevant. We can put it off no longer.

It's very clear to me that we need to learn stonecarving. Not sure if there's a jutsu suitable for that, but even if a jutsu can only makes rough shape, it can shave off hours of work.

Inferno Vulpix · Jul 5, 2021

RandomOTP said:
MEW Cube, then hammer and chisel it until it's an adequate representation of the Great Seal, scaled down?

I think that would be analogous to getting a fine-carving Earth jutsu, except we'd be leveling Craftsmanship instead of that jutsu. Definitely an option if the jutsu angle doesn't pan out.

eaglejarl · Jul 5, 2021

Shrooms said:
Was any of the study of the rift applicable to understanding the Great Seal? (which we are kind of assuming is a rift to a pocket dimension itself)

You got some data and ideas that might be helpful lines of research in figuring out how the Great Seal works and how to fix it, but nothing directly actionable on the GS itself.

More generally, there are two types of seals that relate to things outside of this dimension. One of those is Summoning Scrolls, which lead to the Seventh Path. The other is the storage seal and its derivatives (e.g. Usumatsu's Glorious Life-Saving Purifier) which lead to a storage space outside of this Path but it is not known what Path (if any) that space is attached to. The Great Seal is not either of those, nor is the rift data you collected.

Kiba · Jul 5, 2021

Inferno Vulpix said:
I think that would be analogous to getting a fine-carving Earth jutsu, except we'd be leveling Craftsmanship instead of that jutsu. Definitely an option if the jutsu angle doesn't pan out.

Ideally it should be faster and quicker to use than carving stones by hands.

Sir Stompy · Jul 5, 2021

eaglejarl said:
HDK for sure but 3D would be the way to bet.

HDK but the words 'very carefully' probably factor in somewhere.

Sure. He tried it and couldn't detect anything.

Yes.

Does Hazou feel like he could research an explosive or storage seal in 3D? Or does he not even know where to start?

faflec · Jul 5, 2021

How do sealing arrays work?

roobee · Jul 5, 2021

we could ask leaf or nara whether they have any technology or non-earth carving jutsu that could help us show our visualization of the great seal. as a cheaper alternative to stonecarving

Velorien · Jul 5, 2021

Sir Stompy said:
Does Hazou feel like he could research an explosive or storage seal in 3D? Or does he not even know where to start?

The latter.

Orisha91 · Jul 5, 2021

I think we now have an excuse to look at the Bijuu and the Karasu poetry (for possible leads on their Seals).

eaglejarl · Jul 5, 2021

faflec said:
How do sealing arrays work?

Technically, a sealing array is simply a seal with more than one part. LBF and 5SB are sealing arrays in the technical sense. In practice the term is only used for seals with dozens of elements and those are far rarer than hen's teeth. Most sealmasters never even see one and only read about them in a few advanced books. They simply aren't necessary for the sorts of things that sealmasters typically want to do. You only use them if you need an extremely large area of effect, an extremely powerful effect, or an extremely precise effect. (Those are inclusive 'or's.) The one time that they become relatively common is during world wars, at which point sealmasters from a given village cooperate to generate large effects, either protective or destructive. The one problem with all known sealing arrays is that they are short-lived, meaning that while it's possible to put a protective dome over a large area for few hours or days, it's not practical to keep it up.

Halberdier · Jul 5, 2021

[X] Great Seal Poll: Stonecarving

So if we want to see the effects of the most recent seal array, that means a trip to Nagi Island? I think the first step should be a 3D rendering for the other masters, in case they have thoughts. Not sure how I feel suggesting a trip to Nagi Island right now.

Sir Stompy · Jul 5, 2021

Shrooms said:
Here's my plan from last cycle, I'll probably write a different plan tomorrow though.

[X] Welcome Home, Here's Some Lists
Word Count: 235

GOKETSU-ONLY MEETING

The apocalypse

Hand out DRAGONWAR reports.

What do Noburi and Keiko think of Ami's Crusader idea?

Either we don't know where the Arachnid Scroll is or it's in a Rock fort. Seems to be a bust, unless someone disagrees...?

Discuss other Scroll options. Otter or Kraken seem the most promising to get Kagome to 7th Path the quickest.

Is that too slow to affect the DRAGONWAR? If so, Hazou prefers any mission to retrieve a Scroll would be for Akane next.

Thoughts?

There is another...senior sealmaster in Leaf, but he hasn't been to the Sealmaster meetings. Is it worth betting we can solve this crisis on our own?

Kumokogo

Bring HOWS Seals to Arachnid territory, explain how they work.

Pitch Ami's Crusader idea. She's not familiar with 7th path denizens, how could it be improved?

Also, Condor Scouts should be coming by soon.

Explain what Hazou thinks will be needed to recreate the Seal for study. Earthshaping or topographic map?

If the plan to reach the Great Seal is the same as before, Hazou has timed Implosion Seals for the kamikaze troops to wear.

Take appropriate amount of time to learn how to activate as needed.

Show proper respect.

Hazou isn't expecting much, but in theory the Implosion seals should severely damage lungs if detonated near a Dragon.

Apply the HOWS to the Great Seal, ensure they work, and get out.

I'd like to see mite observers for the effects of the Implosion seals. Also Hazou taking a sample of the rock Great Seal is made of. Ideally a piece of the GS that's been broken off, but we can settle for rock near the GS that looks like it's made of the same stuff. Don't damage it obviously

Sentient Tree · Jul 5, 2021

[X] Training Akane: FOOM + Rocket Jump! + Shoryuken

[X] Training Keiko: FOOM + Rocket Jump!

[X] Training Noburi: Star of the Show

eaglejarl · Jul 5, 2021

RandomOTP said:
such as Akane spending XP to learn 1 level of sealing way back when).

That was actually a narrative thing. Kagome needed to teach her some very basic sealing so that she could pass as a sealmistress during your disguise period back in Sarubetsu. That 1 XP reflects the equivalent of a complete newbie sitting down with a skilled musician and having them spend 15 minutes explaining how to read sheet music, hold the instrument, and the fingerings for various chords.

Sir Stompy said:
I think we should ask Asuma to gather intelligence (deniably) on the facility until we have a good threat assessment and then decide.

You already have that information.

Sir Stompy said:
100000 people in Leaf

30,000 before the Collapse, a bit less afterwards.

Kiba said:
Ideas for food: Go ten meters underground, build huge caves. Use J-man's sunlight seals and start building vegetable gardens. My biggest concern is ensuring enough air for people to breathe.

Note that Tunneler's Friends are designed to be used by people underground. Whether they are adequate for the task is a separate issue but they do exist.

Sir Stompy said:
Killing and incapacitating are very different. It's a lot easier to kill something than to incapacitate it so that Noburi can touch it without being in danger. AFAIK we don't have earth or water prisons. I don't really know what you're referring to there.

"Have my Water Whip wrapped around" counts as touching for purposes of drain. (Provided that the WW was cast using an actual water source instead of creating a chakra construct of water. A bucket of water is fine, or even his barrel.)

You have Earth Dome, which is intended to be used as a prison.

Kiba said:
Didn't we already apply HOWS seal or at least tells the spider how they work?

You explained them but have not emplaced them.

Halberdier said:
So at one point I remember reading that the order of brushstrokes makes a significant difference for sealing. I assumed that was for a layering effect (making them technically 3D), but now I'm assuming it is because it minutely changes how the ink of the seal looks and acts. Is that correct?

HDK. It could be both.

RandomOTP · Jul 5, 2021

eaglejarl said:
That was actually a narrative thing. Kagome needed to teach her some very basic sealing so that she could pass as a sealmistress during your disguise period back in Sarubetsu. That 1 XP reflects the equivalent of a complete newbie sitting down with a skilled musician and having them spend 15 minutes explaining how to read sheet music, hold the instrument, and the fingerings for various chords.

Ah, bad example, then.

But still, the point remains that Noburi, Akane, Kei, (and Haru?) all cede an extraordinary amount of trust to Hazou's "Thing" and allow him to optimize their training. There have been a few in-character rejections (back in the early Missing Nin Days, Hazou once suggested that Kei seek a social spec to be the "face" of their group. She countered that she finds traditional socialization to be trying, whereas Noburi genuinely enjoys it), but the fact remains that they are placing an unholy amount of trust in Hazou.

Barring it being a negative experience for the QMs, I propose that we ask Noburi what his thoughts are, regarding his potential layouts (Spotlight Ninja or Next Tsunade). Because Noburi's shown a preference for both builds, but without access to FOOM, he can only realistically manage one (though if FOOM becomes viable, then... run).

Further, asking Noburi his own preferences and respecting his personal autonomy is in line with Hazou-pilot's character growth. Since the Minami Incident, and again at the Chunnin Exams, he's made the commitment to not view his allies as mere pawns on a board. Hazou-the-character has been remarkably adept at balancing this renewed commitment with his duties as a Clan Head, and I'd rather not see the hivemind accidentally set back that personal growth yet again.

Cariyaga · Jul 5, 2021

RandomOTP said:
Ah, bad example, then.

But still, the point remains that Noburi, Akane, Kei, (and Haru?) all cede an extraordinary amount of trust to Hazou's "Thing" and allow him to optimize their training. There have been a few in-character rejections (back in the early Missing Nin Days, Hazou once suggested that Kei seek a social spec to be the "face" of their group. She countered that she finds traditional socialization to be trying, whereas Noburi genuinely enjoys it), but the fact remains that they are placing an unholy amount of trust in Hazou.

Barring it being a negative experience for the QMs, I propose that we ask Noburi what his thoughts are, regarding his potential layouts (Spotlight Ninja or Next Tsunade). Because Noburi's shown a preference for both builds, but without access to FOOM, he can only realistically manage one (though if FOOM becomes viable, then... run).

Further, asking Noburi his own preferences and respecting his personal autonomy is in line with Hazou-pilot's character growth. Since the Minami Incident, and again at the Chunnin Exams, he's made the commitment to not view his allies as mere pawns on a board. Hazou-the-character has been remarkably adept at balancing this renewed commitment with his duties as a Clan Head, and I'd rather not see the hivemind accidentally set back that personal growth yet again.

Personally, I strongly suggest making his build such that once he gets access to FOOM, he has an easy path upward from there, and can easily level Resolve through all the pyramid without stopping.

Velorien · Jul 5, 2021

eaglejarl said:
In practice the term is only used for seals with dozens of elements and those are far rarer than hen's teeth.

Disclaimer: this statement is made for the sake of idiom and is not a comment on how common it is for an MfD hen to have teeth.

Shrooms · Jul 5, 2021

Shrooms said:
Here's my plan from last cycle, I'll probably write a different plan tomorrow though.

[X] Welcome Home, Here's Some Lists
Word Count: 290

GOKETSU-ONLY MEETING

The apocalypse

Hand out DRAGONWAR reports.

What do Noburi and Keiko think of Ami's Crusader idea?

Either we don't know where the Arachnid Scroll is or it's in a Rock fort. Seems to be a bust, unless someone disagrees...?

Discuss other Scroll options. Otter or Kraken seem the most promising to get Kagome to 7th Path the quickest.

Is that too slow to affect the DRAGONWAR? If so, Hazou prefers any mission to retrieve a Scroll would be for Akane next.

Thoughts?

There is another...senior sealmaster in Leaf, but he hasn't been to the Sealmaster meetings. Is it worth betting we can solve this crisis on our own?

Kumokogo

Kumokogo

Bring HOWS Seals to Arachnid territory

Pitch Ami's Crusader idea. She's not familiar with 7th path denizens, how could it be improved?

Also, Condor Scouts should be coming by soon.

Describe landmarks around Rock fort, verify that it is the same island in lake that Kumokogo described.

Rock would capture or kill Hazou on sight, so if the Scroll is there, Hazou likely won't be able to access it.

If they have it, wonder why they haven't signed the contract yet? Hopefully they train a Sealmaster...

Explain what Hazou thinks will be needed to recreate the Seal for study. Earthshaping or drawing a topographic map?

If the plan to reach the Great Seal is the same as before, Hazou has timed Implosion Seals for the kamikaze troops to wear.

Take appropriate amount of time to learn how to activate as needed.

Show proper respect.

Hazou isn't expecting much, but in theory the Implosion seals should severely damage lungs if detonated near Dragons' chests.

Apply the HOWS to the Great Seal, ensure they work, and get out.

Shrooms said:
[X] Kabuto Gets Some New Friends
Word Count: 251

Kabuto

Don't violate OPSEC or reveal information that hasn't been cleared.

Kabuto, just so you know, the SSSSS will likely be joining Leaf soon.

We heard they weren't fond of you, so we thought we'd notify you.

Also, here's the most up-to-date and high quality copy of the Great Seal we have, as well as an updated report on the DRAGONWAR.

Feel free to share with Orochimaru if it doesn't bug him.

Kumokogo

Bring HOWS Seals to Arachnid territory

Pitch Ami's Crusader idea. She's not familiar with 7th path denizens, how could it be improved?

Also, Condor Scouts should be coming by soon.

Describe landmarks around Rock fort, verify that it is the same island in lake that Kumokogo described.

Rock would capture or kill Hazou on sight, so if the Scroll is there, Hazou likely won't be able to access it.

If they have it, wonder why they haven't signed the contract yet? Hopefully they train a Sealmaster...

Explain what Hazou thinks will be needed to recreate the Seal for study. Earthshaping or drawing a topographic map?

If the plan to reach the Great Seal is the same as before, Hazou has timed Implosion Seals for the kamikaze troops to wear.

Take appropriate amount of time to learn how to activate as needed.

Show proper respect.

Hazou isn't expecting much, but in theory the Implosion seals should severely damage lungs if detonated near Dragons' chests.

Apply the HOWS to the Great Seal, ensure they work, and get out.

Updated both plans to verify with Kumokogo that the Rock fort actually is where the Arachnid Scroll is, and it's not some other island in a lake.

The Kabuto plan has 50 words or so to work with, if anyone has any offscreen business they want attended?

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Handsome Gentleperson