Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
- Location
- Colombia
it depends on whether or not they had eaten anything that can dig. had we found any fossil evidence that confirms that Ankylosaurus definitely couldn't?This definitely very trustworthy source says we may want to be careful about that! A burrow speed of 40ft is no joke
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Maybe? I mean, they could clearly move around on their own and fight or there's no way they would've been able to kill off the archaeopteryx clan, so they probably have like, basic motor functions such as digging. They may not have their magic earth jutsu powers yet.
Is there an ankylosaurus clan I'm not aware of or did you mean the archaeopteryx
Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
- Location
- Colombia
"They devoured the Ankylosaurus Clan and regained scales. When they consume the power in the other clans vested and prismatic the skies become, they shall surely regain the art of parting the veil. Then the Great Maker's home shall be the first target of vengeance."
Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
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- Colombia
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- UK
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A sonic AoE attack that petrifies? What an intriguing and, dare I say it, underused idea.
This definitely very trustworthy source says we may want to be careful about that! A burrow speed of 40ft is no joke
Also, don't forget to spoiler your images.
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WHAT HAVE I DONE
- Location
- Potato land
I actually think Keiko is mostly correct in her interpretation of Mari. Mari's desire for change has always been self-centered; it was always about *her* being a monster, *her* being unable to stop manipulating people, *her* guilt for what she did to the kids. Rarely if ever do her actual victims come up. And I really don't think this can be all blamed on Truth Lost in the Fog, as it was still very visible back when Jiraiya was alive, during the Hana debacle, and even earlier, before we settled in Leaf. I also don't think Mari not asking for forgiveness is a result of her not wanting to be manipulative; rather, I think she, at a fundamental level, simply doesn't consider it important, and the apology more than an empty ritual.
I do think Keiko's interpretation is incomplete, and probably a bit harsh, but it's not fundamentally wrong, and trying to convince her that it is doesn't sound like a fruitful approach, especially since we know she expects us to do exactly this. Furthermore, what Keiko ended up saying, is likely what Mari eventually needed to hear, in some form, so pushing back against it would make both of them regress, were it successful.
Finally, the conflict between Mari and Keiko is only partially about the form of Mari's redemption, it's more fundamentally about their incompatible moral philosophies. Keiko wants to actually make the world a better place even at a cost to herself, which is a consistent facet of her character since the Condor genocide, while Mari is only concerned with the well-being of her new extended in-group of the Goketsu Clan. This would very likely still be a conflict even if Mari did everything as Keiko would've wanted, and the fact that the argument spilled into personal matters is, in a way, incidental.
In summary, I'd focus on dealing with Isan in a way that Keiko finds acceptable, rather than trying to untangle the emotional knot right now. Do a bit of individual morale boosting; assure Keiko she's not stupid or evil for doing what she did; and assure Mari that this doesn't invalidate all her efforts at becoming a better person. They both need some time to process this before we start digging into it again.
I do think Keiko's interpretation is incomplete, and probably a bit harsh, but it's not fundamentally wrong, and trying to convince her that it is doesn't sound like a fruitful approach, especially since we know she expects us to do exactly this. Furthermore, what Keiko ended up saying, is likely what Mari eventually needed to hear, in some form, so pushing back against it would make both of them regress, were it successful.
Finally, the conflict between Mari and Keiko is only partially about the form of Mari's redemption, it's more fundamentally about their incompatible moral philosophies. Keiko wants to actually make the world a better place even at a cost to herself, which is a consistent facet of her character since the Condor genocide, while Mari is only concerned with the well-being of her new extended in-group of the Goketsu Clan. This would very likely still be a conflict even if Mari did everything as Keiko would've wanted, and the fact that the argument spilled into personal matters is, in a way, incidental.
In summary, I'd focus on dealing with Isan in a way that Keiko finds acceptable, rather than trying to untangle the emotional knot right now. Do a bit of individual morale boosting; assure Keiko she's not stupid or evil for doing what she did; and assure Mari that this doesn't invalidate all her efforts at becoming a better person. They both need some time to process this before we start digging into it again.
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- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
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- He/Him
I think that this plan has a significant flaw: namely, that we have no idea what Mari will make of our sharing our speculations about TLitF with Keiko, and that if Keiko takes this very seriously, she could quite reasonably walk away with the impression that Mari is a damaged subhuman who is incapable of feeling empathy/remorse and therefore meaningful interaction with her isn't possible in any capacity. I think that this is a) wrong and b) a poor outcome. I've made some modifications which I feel keep the spirit of the plan intact.
Timing: shortly after chapter 430
- Asuma (offscreen):
- Isan team needs money.
- Bank run changed our finances.
- Is a Tower loan possible?
- Keiko:
- Tone:
- Maintain Standard Gouketsu Family SOP as possible.
- Speak calmly and kindly, use CCnJ as appropriate.
- Listen to Keiko.
- We are NOT trying to convince Keiko of anything, just explaining Hazou's thoughts and reasonings.
- Ask Keiko why she thinks Mari's never apologized?
- Mari's a Jonin social-spec, and knows a lot about how to control Keiko.
- She has to know how important an apology, or something similar, is to Keiko.
- So why hasn't she?
- Hazou believes Mari's scared it would just be another manipulation.
- Hazou recalls Mari's fears about this: she certainly wouldn't want to fake an apology.
- Mari may be concerned that she can't communicate a genuine apology in a way which scans as genuine.
- Mari may be concerned that she can't tell the difference between genuine interaction and subconscious manipulation.
- Hazo doesn't want to speak for Mari or breach her confidence but he knows that she is spending time/energy on working on that specifically - genuine interactions, re-evaluating her worldview.
- State clearly that Hazo supports Keiko in dealing with this.
- It is awful and wrong that Mari has not apologized/taken responsibility.
- Hazou repeats that he doesn't want to convince Keiko to forgive Mari.
- Hazou simply wants to state his own thoughts on why.
- But we would like to ask what Keiko wants from Mari.
- Just an apology?
- Restitution (and what would that look like)?
- Okay if no clear answer, just a sense of injustice.
- No need to answer me, just think on it.
- [IFF she's up for it] Talk about the plan.
- Secured [resources] from Asuma.
- Hazou still thinks overthrowing Shusuke is possible with his plan, but agrees with Mari that it may be too fast.
- He observes that he wanted to mimic Ami's actions in Leaf/Mist, but may have failed to take into account Leaf's relative weakness and Mist's...Yagura-ness.
- Perhaps Keiko could clear chakra monsters with the locals, and use that to gain allies?
- In the meantime, ask for Yuno to suggest potential allies among those who "won't fit in".
- Give Keiko Mari's birthday present: bubble bath seals & a transportable bathtub for her to try it.
- Tone:
This is a trimmed-down version of the same plan.
Word count: 267
Timing: shortly after chapter 430
Timing: shortly after chapter 430
- Asuma (offscreen):
- Isan team needs money.
- Bank run changed our finances.
- Is a Tower loan possible?
- Keiko:
- Tone:
- Calm, kind, CCnJ as appropriate.
- Maintain Gouketsu Family SOP as possible.
- NOT trying to sway Keiko: explaining Hazou's perspective.
- Listen to Keiko, start by giving her space to talk.
- Ask Keiko why she thinks Mari's never apologized?
- Mari's social-spec, knows Keiko well.
- Logically, knows how important an apology/restitution is to Keiko.
- So, why no apology?
- Hazou believes Mari's scared she's manipulative.
- Hazou recalls Mari's fears.
- Tone:
- She wouldn't want to fake an important apology.
- Mari's potentially concerned she can't communicate a genuine apology without appearing manipulative.
- Mari's potentially concerned she no longer knows what's genuine interaction vs. subconscious manipulation.
- Hazo knows Mari's spending time/energy working on that specifically: re-evaluating her thought process/worldview.
- Extreme clarity: Hazo supports Keiko's grievances.
- Mari hasn't taken responsibility.
- This is wrong.
- Reiterate: not trying to sway Keiko.
- Wants to share his thoughts, hear hers.
- Interested in what Keiko wants from Mari.
- Simple apology?
- Restitution? What form?
- No answer mandatory, now or ever.
- [IFF she's up for it] Talk about the plan.
- Secured [resources] from Asuma.
- Hazou thinks overthrowing Shusuke is a possibility, but agrees it may be premature.
- Plan was to mimic Ami's actions in Leaf/Mist, may have failed to account for Leaf's relative weakness and Mist's...Yagura-ness.
- Could Keiko clear chakra monsters w/Isanese, use that to gain allies?
- Ask Yuno for potential allies among those who "won't fit in".
- Give Keiko Mari's birthday present: bubble bath seals/tub, gifts from the rest of the family.
Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
Anyone considered asking Keiko why she hasn't murdered Mari in her sleep, damn the consequences, if she believes her to be nothing but a monster trying futilely to be human that will always hurt the people around her?
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- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
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faflec's plan title was more accurate than I'd anticipated.
Keiko's insistence that she's Awful, Actually and the fact that she repeatedly bottles up her feelings until they explode, invariably at the worst possible time, feel indicative (to me) of a lot of trauma which got in the way of emotional growth. IMO it's fairly clear that she doesn't know how to communicate with other people in an adult/mature fashion on certain topics.
I think that this is an extremely negative interpretation of Mari. She's a flawed person who's done a lot for us in pretty selfless ways. She is naturally flinching away from painful thoughts - her avoidance of apologies/culpability - but she's working on that, too. I'm also pretty sympathetic to the idea that apologies are empty rituals. Tsunade would agree - I don't have an exact citation but she was very clear that she believed that the best apology was changed behaviour. I agree, and think that Mari is in the process of changing, which is necessarily going to be slow. If Keiko can't be around Mari while this is happening, that's totally fine and I support that, but it's Keiko's responsibility to reach that conclusion and communicate it.
I think you're speculating pretty wildly about motivations, here. If we look at outcomes, Mari has enabled a lot of Uplift (money matters) and Keiko is responsible for a genocide she has not yet mitigated - in fact, I haven't seen her do anything beyond washing her hands of the whole business. Keiko's role in the creation of the KEI appeared largely incidental (that was Ami's baby) and she's done relatively little personal Uplift. Keiko and Mari share credit for passing the marriage equality laws - Mari worked just as hard on that as Keiko, if I recall correctly.
My read of things is that Mari is taking active steps to become a better person who can be more open and honest, with herself and the world, and Keiko remains quite happily mired in self-loathing despite having had many, many people point out to her that said feelings have no basis in fact and have caused substantial harm to Keiko and her loved ones.
I agree that they need time to process. I don't think that we could look Keiko in the eye and tell her this wasn't stupid. This is largely because emotional matters run tangent to rationality, but also because the fact that Keiko could have opted to talk about her feelings at any time, but didn't. Instead, she's doubled down on behaviours which have been demonstrated to be harmful to everyone around her despite having a world-class support system and a great many people trying to reach out to her to help, who have been uniformly and thoroughly rebuffed. She's presently in the process of committing to hurt a valuable member of our clan in ways which we know can be crippling, and that needs to be nipped in the bud before we need to take more drastic action.
Keiko would have no answer and it's a bit of a cruel question. Keiko does not actually believe that Mari is a soulless manipulation-monster. She loves her deeply and appreciates what she's done for her. She's hurt by what she's done and the lack of acknowledgement. My read is that Keiko is, in part, lashing out at Mari because she's available and Keiko knows she won't fight back. That is what (some) traumatized people do as they're recovering - they have a lot of emotions and they feel safe for the first time in potentially literally ever, and little ability to regulate their emotional response because they never got to experiment with emotional responses in their youth - doing so had intensely negative consequences, so they didn't. Keiko feels safe around Mari - children don't scream 'I hate you' at strangers, but they'll do so at their parents, because they feel comfortable enough to act in an uninhibited manner.
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I disagree.
For example:
Hana is continuously making this about Mari, and Mari consciously chooses not to try and vindicate herself with her care for Keiko. Mari goes on to talk about what Hazou wants, not what she wants.
She wasn't just concerned about absolving herself, because as Keiko herself so kindly pointed out, she could make them feel however she wants. If she wanted forgiveness, all she'd need to do is convince them to forgive her. She's chosen not to do so because she doesn't feel that she's earned the right yet, because she knows it wouldn't be right to genuinely manipulate them only for the sake of her own ends. That to me speaks that she does care about the agency of the kids, and is choosing to let them judge her on her own merits rather than with sickly sweet smooth talking. Focusing on her own status doesn't mean she doesn't also think about how the others must feel.
When she had her breakdown, she wasn't just saying "I'm a monster." She'd say things like "I've done monstrous things to you."
Now, I think it's extremely fair to say she doesn't grasp other people's agency and thinking as well as she thinks she does. She's seemingly unwilling to believe that Hazou did choose to forgive her, at least at the time he first brought it up. But to say she doesn't consider how she hurts other people could not be further from the truth, imo.
I disagree with both of these tbh
I think genuinely she just doesn't think she deserves to be forgiven, and so she does not ask for it.
I do definitely agree with this. Now's not the time to fix everything, it's to patch things over until the mission is complete.
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Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
The cruelty is the point. Smacking her in the metaphorical face and telling her to put her money where her mouth is would force her to ask the question "Do I actually believe what I'm spewing?" Don't let her deflect, attack, or stall. Keep asking the question until she gives an answer because she needs to face the answer.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I've updated my plan, so I both take my own advice and do not attempt to warp reality.
Some of this is going to be personal experience but I have rarely if ever observed being deliberately cruel to someone yielding net positive results, and in every situation where it was the course of action selected, looking back, I can see a course of action which was both more compassionate and would have resulted in better outcomes. Keiko needs to face that question, yes, but she needs to do so when she's emotionally supported/comfortable/available. You don't ask people to run marathons after you've beaten them up - or if you do, you need to have tempered expectations as to their performance. If we beat Keiko up emotionally and then ask her to do emotional work, the outcome of that work is going to reflect the beating she's taken.
Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
That would be great if Keiko at all seemed like the kinda person that wouldn't immediately sabotage herself emotionally to avoid thinking both critically about something like this and actually changing because of the conclusions. She's going to be emotionally damaged by the question "Why have you not murdered Mari if you believe her to be an irreconcilable danger to everyone and everything.". If we try to to prepare her for it she'll run and attack like a coward. Just dropping it on her and continually hitting her with it when she tries to run is honestly the best way I can see of approaching the topic and actually getting results.
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- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I agree that Keiko-right-now would absolutely do this. I think that Keiko-after-some-more-growth might not.
Do you mean physically attack Mari? I very much so doubt it.
I feel like you're neglecting 'balance support her emotionally while not enabling behaviours we refuse to condone, and making sure we draw healthy boundaries and try not to ask drastically more of her than we feel she is capable'.
- Location
- Yes.
I've made some edits based on these suggestions, could you take a look as they are not exactly what you wrote?
Unaligned Player
Agony that desires to meet Extinction
- Location
- Adrift between sanity and madness
- Pronouns
- Shrug
And where would this miraculous growth as a person come from?
No that's not a heavily expected result, I'm thinking more taking shots at Hazou for things like not murdering Orochimaru and saying that he doesn't actually believe in uplift since he's not running himself ragged every second of the day and actually has y'know. Emotions and desires outside of Uplift. All in an effort to move the conversation away from herself.
I feel like I just read a politician's manifesto because I got nothing from this.
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My suggested trimmings and one addition
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- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
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- He/Him
I would maybe change the tone of this to 'we think that this is a potential reason that Mari may not have apologized - that she's self-aware enough of this to hold off on apologizing until she can be sure it's meaningful because she shares your worries that she might actually be a broken social-spec is to her credit in at least some regards'. That's more what I meant, at any rate.
I would also like us to make clear our support for Keiko's desire for some sort of acknowledgement/taking-of-responsibility. I think that hearing that would be important to her, because she's modeled us as trying to dissuade her.
However:
[X] Action Plan: An Isan Plan That Hopefully Will Not Break The Timeline
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Also optimized word count for faflec, not sure how much this saves
- Location
- UK
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Not objecting to the effort itself, but do note that different wording results in a different emotional tone for the plan, which can consciously or unconsciously influence the writing process.