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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Shrooms said:
Has it been asked in-universe why genjutsu isn't used for training purposes? Or if it is used for such?
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Like using genjutsu for simulations?
Or resolve training?

One of the disadvantages was genjutsu does not have time-dilation as a property.
Oh, and using genjutsu on yourself is bad. Not sure how that works with SC though...
 
Orisha91 said:
Like using genjutsu for simulations?
Or resolve training?

One of the disadvantages was genjutsu does not have time-dilation as a property.
Oh, and using genjutsu on yourself is bad. Not sure how that works with SC though...
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Yeah for simulations/instant transmission of information. Like instantly training someone how to do something by vision-ing it into their brain. I can think of in-universe reasons why it wouldn't be possible but I'm wondering if we ever actually verified that it's not possible/practical.

As for the time dilation thing, you're forgetting about tsukuyomi (or whatever the equivalent thing Itachi was using in MfD). Obviously this wouldn't be common training practice though since only Itachi can use it.
 
Velorien said:
I thought that might be what you meant. That was the engagement party, not the LGBT party. Also, that was Prism.
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Changed the wording to the correct sister (Crystal). How does the plan look, now? Any points I should clarify?

Shrooms said:
Cowardice isn't in her nature. That fear isn't rational
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But it is in Ami's nature. Mari's pointed out that Ami is a physical coward, Ami's been playing sibling love on "easy" mode this whole time and is now terrified by the thought of actually getting emotionally close to Keiko (rather than just loving her from a safe distance, but I've rambled aimlessly about this point before), and Ami is resigned/scared of Hazou getting close to her --even though it's already happening. Cowardice is in her nature, Ami's terrified of emotional vulnerability. But maybe we can show her that she doesn't need to be scared of being emotionally vulnerable with Hazou.

Shrooms said:
  • It won't work anyways. So long as Keiko considers her family, she's family.
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I feel like the wording on this is a bit too... confrontational? Direct? Blunt? Ami already knows this and rubbing her face in the inevitability of this fact isn't going to help things.

Ami's terrified of emotional vulnerability and is more than a little scared/jumpy/anxious at the fact that Hazou is getting close to her, emotionally. And yeah, Ami's family (in that gruff Vin Diesel "I'll burn bridges for you" sort of way), but shoving the inevitability in her face isn't going to help. It'll only startle her even more.

Right now Ami's listless because she knows Kieko loves Hazou and that she can't act against him because of that. She also know Hazou's goals not only align with her own, but are also oriented towards keeping the Painted World (as well as humanity) alive. Sure, Ami might be doubtful about Uplift, but she at least recognizes that Hazou is (at a bare minimum) wants to keep everyone alive. And then there' the fact that Hazou (as slow/awkward as he is) is quick enough on the uptake that he'll see through many of Ami's facades, given enough time, meaning she can't just pretend to be someone else.

There's also the sheer duration of their interactions. Acting out a role, pretending to be someone else, is draining, even for the best of actors/actresses. Ami, for all that she is, is still human. Jonin though she might be, she still has her limits. If she were to put on a mask around Hazou, it would eventually slip in some way, and we would notice. And that's not even going into the morality of Ami leveraging her influence over Keiko to pressure Keiko to accept lying-by-association/omission to her own brother-in-heart.

So Ami's stuck with Hazou, yes. But she's also not wholly content with the fact. So, I think that we should be calm, gentle, and soothing about this.

Shrooms said:
  • Hazou can't force her to change, nor would he. He wants to prove why she should want to change. It's her decision how their relationship will further.
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I feel like telling Ami "We don't want you to change, but you should want to change yourself, and here're a list of reasons why. Also if you don't, then our partnership/friendship is at an end" not only reads as hollow but manipulative. I don't think this will do anything other than
 
RandomOTP said:
But it is in Ami's nature. Mari's pointed out that Ami is a physical coward, Ami's been playing sibling love on "easy" mode this whole time and is now terrified by the thought of actually getting emotionally close to Keiko (rather than just loving her from a safe distance, but I've rambled aimlessly about this point before), and Ami is resigned/scared of Hazou getting close to her --even though it's already happening. Cowardice is in her nature, Ami's terrified of emotional vulnerability. But maybe we can show her that she doesn't need to be scared of being emotionally vulnerable with Hazou.
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I mean that it isn't how she sees herself. She doesn't like the idea of being irrationally afraid of anything, so it's antithetical to her idealized self

RandomOTP said:
I feel like the wording on this is a bit too... confrontational? Direct? Blunt? Ami already knows this and rubbing her face in the inevitability of this fact isn't going to help things.
(ETC)
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I don't agree. I feel like she's in denial about it and Hazou making it explicit that he'll still care about her well-being regardless of how she acts is something she needs to hear with some bluntness. Remember, she was astonished that Hazou wasn't happy she got her ass beat by Mari.

RandomOTP said:
I feel like telling Ami "We don't want you to change, but you should want to change yourself, and here're a list of reasons why. Also if you don't, then our partnership/friendship is at an end" not only reads as hollow but manipulative. I don't think this will do anything other than
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That's not what I was trying to say. The line of "you're family no matter what" establishes that Hazou is going to treat her the same no matter what. She's going to be family to him, so any variation in their interactions are going to be defined by her actions, not Hazou's. He's already drawn his line in the sand, so to speak.

These are all my intentions, if anyone doesn't think they read this way and wants to suggest a rewording I am open to suggestions.
 
Updated!

RandomOTP said:
[X] Action Plan: Family Friction
Wordcount: 480
  • Ami
    • Tone: We're supposed to be equal partners, let's achieve mutual understanding
    • Thank you her for the apology message.
    • Does she know why you were angry?
      • We understood your hidden message, but the way you communicated it was abhorrent
        • You exploited intimate information about us.
        • We were shocked and panicked, fixating on how dangerous pregnancy for Akane would be.
        • You could've just said it outright, since even you admit that no one was within earshot.
          • Pranks are fun, but the line between fun and cruel is fine
            • You're allowed to ask
              • Trust us, of all people, to be reasonable about weird things.
      • Cruel methods, though effective in bridging qualia, cannot exist between us.
        • Ami, if someone expressed this level of existential disregard for Keiko (especially for something as paltry as communicative efficiency) what would you do?
      • Normally it's permissible, because ninja. But we're more than that: family.
    • "Mutually beneficial relationship between two neutral entities" is easy.
      • But we're not just that, otherwise things wouldn't be so difficult.
      • We're something new, and that requires change from both of us.
        • Not repeating rote, old patterns because it's familiar/safer.
        • And yes, it's pain. Welcome to the party. But in our experience, it's so worth it.
    • If we don't exist in your priorities, this whole fiasco is just a result of us misplacing our trust. We don't think that's the case. Uplift aside, we're united in our shared priority in Keiko.
    • We wouldoffer a peace offering, but there is nothing to offer, because:
      • As family, if she ever needs help, we'd help her regardless. Because normal rules don't apply.
    • You have a permanent seat at our dinner table, and an optimization meeting (at your choosing) for your… plan.
  • Keiko
    • Optimize with the Goketsu, Tenten, and Shika
    • Keiko, we've noticed that you're stressed, and that you don't seem to feel comfortable with the success that you've achieved. Would you like to talk about that? We can (and will) list out each and every reason why you've earned the success you've gained.
    • Crystal Sisters
      • During the Engagement Party, Crystal made a social mistake (Crystal propositioning Hazou)
      • You've been tolerant of our social blunders, even when you would've been justified in turning against us (ex: first killbox)
      • Is there anything we could do to help our sisters' progression as individuals
        • Failing that: we could be an ear to listen, as you vent your frustrations?
      • We were also wondering if you would be against us spending time with our new sisters? FOOM can wait a bit if it means our family stays connected. What use is power if it means you're alone and your family is neglected? Look at Orochimaru.
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Shrooms said:
Yeah for simulations/instant transmission of information. Like instantly training someone how to do something by vision-ing it into their brain. I can think of in-universe reasons why it wouldn't be possible but I'm wondering if we ever actually verified that it's not possible/practical.

As for the time dilation thing, you're forgetting about tsukuyomi (or whatever the equivalent thing Itachi was using in MfD). Obviously this wouldn't be common training practice though since only Itachi can use it.
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After giving this some more thought...I think we can cheat or work our way around experiencing an perception similar to time dilation.

While time dilation from Genjutsu isn't possible for non-sharingan users, we could trick the brain into thinking it's taking place through thought acceleration.

Was going through 2 books about Human perception and sensations that mentioned that time perception(psychological, not physiological) can be slowed for the perceiver if they see rapid changes in elements of an image or sound. It's similar to how a mentalist would trick you into going through a series of wildly different emotions to foo you into thinking you've got a deeper or complicated relationship. They create history or the impression of history where there is none.

I imagine Mari might know something about this, but Hazo has experienced something like this when he had his nightmare Out fever dream about alternate realities. He can probably use it as inspiration.

EDIT: Yes, I think of genjutsu as similar to psychoactive substances. Don't judge me.
:p
 
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Noumero said:
snip
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I have more Ami-training ideas to add. I think we should bring it back to get Hazou to SC 30 as soon as possible. Y'all tell me what you think:


  • Calligraphy/Fine Manipulation
    • Draw blanks while a (relatively safe) chakra beast attempts to buck you from its back. (Don't use them)
    • Paint a portrait by holding the brushes with chopsticks
  • Stamina
    • Go about the Goketsu estate pretending the world is rotated 90 degrees. A wall is now the floor, the floor is now a wall.
    • Have Noburi supervise you lifting weights underwater, holding your breath as long as is possible between reps.
    • Wear a harness with a rope, have an estate genin try to tug you in random directions while you go about your day. Rotate genin as necessary
    • Spend a day deadhanging with your arms and doing paperwork with your feet.
    • Everything is lava: spend a day with as much airtime as possible. Jump in place if you have to
  • Acrobatics
    • Spend a day flipping everywhere. You can't move unless you are flipping, even just to sit down.
  • Combat Skills
    • Duel with Candoru using only MEW
  • Concentration/Memory
    • Meditate just outside of danger range of banshee seal
    • Count to ten thousand while your clones call out random numbers, start over if you mess up
    • Read one of Jiraiya's books while the estate genin throw practice kunai at you. Summarize each chapter from memory.
    • Memorize the most complex Mist recipe you have access to, lay out all the ingredients, then cook the whole thing blindfolded
  • Physique
    • Summon a MEW wall, then turn it to rubble with only your fists
    • Have Akane superheat a room, then sit in it as long as you safely can. Repeat for cold temperatures.
 
Meh, forbidden lore

[X] A Conversation with Beings that Know Things

  • Go to the Seventh Path.
    • Socialize with your summons.
      • Ask them if there are any historians or loremasters or general myth and legend experts.
      • If so, is talking to them a thing you would be able to do?
    • If its not some weird socially taboo thing, go chitchat with the loremasters/historians/sages/general myths and legend experts.
      • Ask after any interesting ancient legends.
      • After some time, prod specifically:
        • Say, are there any ones about the six paths? The Asura path? What about the Sage of the Six Paths, what legends do you know about him?
  • Talk to Yuno over tea about any misc. Isan myths and legends you might not have heard before.
    • Say, are there any ones about the six paths? The Asura path? What about the Sage of the Six Paths, what legends do you know about him?
    • Catch up with her, how shes doing, etc.
      • Say, does she have any ideas for how she would like to help implement Uplift? Does she have any preferences with respect to her personal involvement?
  • Chill with Noburi.
    • Say, how does medical chakra work anyway?
    • Yeah, yeah, but... What do you actually *do* to make it? How do you practice doing that? Whats it feel like from your internal perspective?
 
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Velorien said:
What do you mean by "existential disregard"?
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That she used Akane's existence and relationship to Hazou (a vulnerability) in a cruel way (when non-cruel methods would've worked, even if they wouldn't be as fun or as efficient) simply to send a message. She leveraged reduced Akane's existence to a mere conversational lever to achieve max info in as little wording as necessary.

If someone were to use Keiko in a similar way towards Ami ("hey, ninja pregnancies are hard and your sister would be traumatized by the experience. Too bad adoption isn't as culturally accepted as it could be, yeah?" But smoother because I'm not the most subtle/observant person), Ami would kill them or coordinate their self destruction so the person in question killed themselves.

Ami also was going to spread the rumor about Akane being pregnant with Hazou's child without Akane's permission. I've already said the ramifications (Akane's honor, Akane's friend pool would likely never grow, everyone would assume Hazou and Akane were together because of the non-existent baby, etc), and I'm sure Ami would have a rebuttal against most of these point, but the fact is that Ami reduced Akane to a political/conversational pawn without regard for Akane's feelings.

I think Hazou would be doubly offended by that, since he was once guilty of something similar. Granted, I think Hazou's moved past most (if not all) of his anger (because Mari-Soup-Catharsis), but it's still a point of contention between them that needs discussed.

Whether Ami is willing to discuss it in open honesty/vulnerability is something I worry about. Poor girl has been through a lot and has a thousand reasons not to trust ANYONE. It's hard to remember she's only a teenager, too. Poor girl... But that's just my parental/momma bear instincts coming out. Point being: Ami reduced Akane to a chess piece for the sake of communicative efficiency (I think).

Edit: sorry if I rambled or was unclear in this post. Just woke up and my brain is cheese
 
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