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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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One of my biggest hopes right now is that even if we are forced to come up with a Theme for the King of The Skies Armor, like I somewhat expect given the time crunch related to it, we'll come up with an Armor Combo. And from that Combo can extrapolate related ones so that we have a better basis to go off of.

These runes we're purchasing provide us more tools to do that with in my mind.

I hope that's the case as well. I think it's probably a given that we'll want to give the King of the Skies the Master Rune of Unyielding for his armor, as regeneration is no small thing for a supercombatant of his level and size. The only reason we may not want to give him that is if we have a better rune available, which we very well get due to our Dragon Ogre Autopsies likely to yield something related to them.
 
I hope that's the case as well. I think it's probably a given that we'll want to give the King of the Skies the Master Rune of Unyielding for his armor, as regeneration is no small thing for a supercombatant of his level and size. The only reason we may not want to give him that is if we have a better rune available, which we very well get due to our Dragon Ogre Autopsies likely to yield something related to them.
I don't think it'd give us a new competitive rune directly, since going by what we're talking about it'd probably need to be a Master Rune to compete and the process for finding those has been demonstrated to be long and involved. But! I do think it might empower a Rune we already have, though I'm not sure which ones that would be.
 
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I don't think it'd give us a new rune directly, since going by what we're talking about it'd probably need to be a Master Rune to compete and the process for finding those has been demonstrated to be long and involved. But! I do think it might empower a Rune we already have, though I'm not sure which ones that would be.

Yeah, I may be a little hopeful on that front, as a Rune of Lightning or something from Dragon Ogres would be nice to have, especially considering how thoroughly we will be working on the corpses. But I am curious what we could use our Dragon Ogre Corpses for, as they seem like something that would make good reagents. Not entirely sure if they themselves would be of any use as the base of other crafting materials as we do have better things around.
 
Yeah, I may be a little hopeful on that front, as a Rune of Lightning or something from Dragon Ogres would be nice to have, especially considering how thoroughly we will be working on the corpses. But I am curious what we could use our Dragon Ogre Corpses for, as they seem like something that would make good reagents. Not entirely sure if they themselves would be of any use as the base of other crafting materials as we do have better things around.
I know we already have a Rune of Lightning, its on the detailed list. And same, I'm curious about what we'll be able to do with it.

Another of my hopes is that Voidstones don't open up into a chain. After considering it for a while and how its so entwined with one of the pillars of Runecraft that is Rune Metal I'm starting to worry that it might have a chain. Which is counter to the point behind me taking it, since I want to reduce the size of our research category as much as possible so we have only the chains to focus on when we feel like researching things.
 
I know we already have a Rune of Lightning, its on the detailed list. And same, I'm curious about what we'll be able to do with it.

Another of my hopes is that Voidstones don't open up into a chain. After considering it for a while and how its so entwined with one of the pillars of Runecraft that is Rune Metal I'm starting to worry that it might have a chain. Which is counter to the point behind me taking it, since I want to reduce the size of our research category as much as possible so we have only the chains to focus on when we feel like researching things.

Ahh, I didn't notice that. Well, maybe it amplifies it then,

Considering how scarce Voidstones appear to be, as we still don't know the concrete conditions needed for Voidstones to be produced, I'm hopeful that the Voidstone research is either a one-off or a small chain of research. Either resulting in us getting knowledge in how to more easily produce the material, or leading us to a Rune for it, though I'm having trouble figuring out what it could possibly be.

Personally, though, I'm just curious to see what our research on Light will eventually yield. Though, that may just be my bias in wanting to create a death ray ala Archimedes Mirror atop the mountain peak.
 
I know we already have a Rune of Lightning, its on the detailed list. And same, I'm curious about what we'll be able to do with it.

Another of my hopes is that Voidstones don't open up into a chain. After considering it for a while and how its so entwined with one of the pillars of Runecraft that is Rune Metal I'm starting to worry that it might have a chain. Which is counter to the point behind me taking it, since I want to reduce the size of our research category as much as possible so we have only the chains to focus on when we feel like researching things.
Research, when done right, generally creates more new questions I think.

Like, basic look at the Voidstones you have the following questions:
-Why do Voidstones work for this rune? Is there some way to get your hands on a higher tier version of Voidstone? Gromril after all can go up a rank as a material with refining.

-How are Voidstones formed? Once you know how the next step is to make it happen on purpose, and then to make/find more or better Voidstones for the same effort. And opens up a new one of "what other exotic materials can be formed by similar methods?"

-What else are Voidstones good for? If they're like Obsidian then maybe they also work for and add effects to runes that need Obsidian(and maybe the inverse, could a cheaper version be substituted for a less efficient but easier to make Smelter?). What if you inscribe a rune ONTO Voidstone?

It'd probably be better for sanity to just focus on specific deliverables you want from a research chain than to assume you could wipe it out.
 
@BungieONI your time scales are off each bar takes 20 years per smelter not 2.

I think you were using turn and year interchangeably.

Edit: and now rereading I can't see what I thought I saw... don't know if it was edited or i'm just going mad.
 
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Research, when done right, generally creates more new questions I think.

Like, basic look at the Voidstones you have the following questions:
-Why do Voidstones work for this rune? Is there some way to get your hands on a higher tier version of Voidstone? Gromril after all can go up a rank as a material with refining.

-How are Voidstones formed? Once you know how the next step is to make it happen on purpose, and then to make/find more or better Voidstones for the same effort. And opens up a new one of "what other exotic materials can be formed by similar methods?"

-What else are Voidstones good for? If they're like Obsidian then maybe they also work for and add effects to runes that need Obsidian(and maybe the inverse, could a cheaper version be substituted for a less efficient but easier to make Smelter?). What if you inscribe a rune ONTO Voidstone?

It'd probably be better for sanity to just focus on specific deliverables you want from a research chain than to assume you could wipe it out.
So basically the assumption you're operating on is that most research things create chains?

I really hope not on my end. That sort of thing evokes a certain visceral horror.

@BungieONI your time scales are off each bar takes 20 years per smelter not 2.
Ah you're talking about the "five year" thing I had, yeah that was mistype since I was talking about the five decade production thing of the Brotherhood. Thank you.
 
I agree, I fully expect most of the research options to lead to more research. Well, to lead to gained knowledge and further research.

It would honestly hurt my immersion for it to be otherwise.

Research is likely here to stay, and will be a part of how Snorri balances various areas of being a runelord.
 
Thats how it worked for far. Researches unlock new research branches unless they dead end or lead to the next item in the same tree, or you run out of material
Its worth noting something her that we really only deliberately touched things that were relatively obvious chains, Rune Metal, Light, Movement. The only thing which wasn't was greedy heart.

I agree, I fully expect most of the research options to lead to more research. Well, to lead to gained knowledge and further research.

It would honestly hurt my immersion for it to be otherwise.

Research is likely here to stay, and will be a part of how Snorri balances various areas of being a runelord.
So there's something very specific I'm driving at which I've raised before: categories that are effectively fixed or growing in scope are bad design because you're gaining things while feeding a "fire". Something is always "on fire". That fire in a fixed category stays the same size no matter what you do. The size of a category should have an impact on how people interact with and think about it right? If you have a huge backlog, many folks talk about cutting it down in size. What I've found is that this is a valid motivation and playstyle that finds little fulfillment in these sorts of fixed sized or growing category design. They act to cut it down, they complete an action in the backlog, and it just stays the same size as something else replaces it. For more direct description of what I'm talking about Divided Loyalties discussions on backlog are good, as are ye olde discussions about roads in Paths of Civilization.

I fully agree with the idea that gaining knowledge and further research should come from research and that it is about the balancing act of a Runelord's priorities. This is logical and immersively obvious. The distinction I am making, which I've outlined part of in the below post before, is that research chains provide that gain of knowledge and requirement for balance but that we're not only dealing with chains as shown by the greedy heart.

And to expand on the whole research chain thing, I expect that the way soulcake has designed them is that these chains and any further ones that come up can be finished and that reaching the capstone of a chain is a Big Deal. And that reaching the capstones in related chains is an even Bigger Deal because of synergy.

But that there's enough of individual chains that this advancement is supposed to take the entire scope of the quest to get through every single chain. I.e we'll probably always have at least one chain research to spend time on. Which makes sense. Runelords and Runesmiths are famous for sequestering themselves in research for centuries at a time, which is effectively what research chains can create if we have nothing else to do.

Consider as well the Hearthstone. We know where it is, we have effectively [Uncounted] amounts of it, but we don't know what it does to Runes. This doesn't have much too it that needs to be asked. How does it effect Runes as an ingredient, what happens when you put runes on it, could there be better versions out there. Its also a gem and you don't exactly refine gems. So there's a train of logic to expecting it just ends at one level. Its low tier as well, there's not a lot of reason to expect a low tier thing to take very long to suss out all of its secrets.

The system of the quest is one which can support single part research projects as borne out by the Greedy Heart. Therefore, in my mind it is good practice to do those in order to reduce the overall scope of the research category; for purposes of reducing backlog which produces good chemicals for some folks including myself, enhancing our Runes with better understood ingredients, and enhancing our creations with esoterica dug up about various materials.

It is not an attack on the concept of the process of research in and of itself.
 
I'ts always going to be limited, something made in small batches over the course of years or decades. I'm just pointing out its an interesting theological issue with applying the rule of pride to infrastructure. Though, now that I think about it, probably not a novel one. A lot of infrastructure gets runed so the dawi most certainly have an answer to it.
Stuff that uses Master runes is actually pretty rare for dwarfs and it's things like a normal Gromril smelter which a hold normally has one of. Issue with the adamant furnace is basically the Master rune activates the rune of pride, the forge has small output, and uses a rare mat to make in the first place
 
But research isn't a fire. Research is not a crisis you must plow through quickly before it harms you. There is no urgency to research, its a statement of how you want to spend your time.

Research a tree. Successful research should in most cases generate more research opportunities unless you've already exhausted that avenue of discovery, which is, with even a bit of consideration, not very likely at present for all the branches.

We went down the Gromril tree until we hit the Adamant point, then we see the research topics fork into the Rune, the Reagent, and the Adamant itself, with subcategories for each to unlock increasingly specific improvements.
 
But research isn't a fire. Research is not a crisis you must plow through quickly before it harms you. There is no urgency to research, its a statement of how you want to spend your time.

Research a tree. Successful research should in most cases generate more research opportunities unless you've already exhausted that avenue of discovery, which is, with even a bit of consideration, not very likely at present for all the branches.

We went down the Gromril tree until we hit the Adamant point, then we see the research topics fork into the Rune, the Reagent, and the Adamant itself, with subcategories for each to unlock increasingly specific improvements.
Yeah its a statement of how we want to spend our time and my point is that if that statement is "I want to make my research category smaller" and I can't then my statement for spending my time is somewhat undercut. With the attendant problems therein.
 
Therefore, in my mind it is good practice to do those in order to reduce the overall scope of the research category; for purposes of reducing backlog which produces good chemicals for some folks including myself, enhancing our Runes with better understood ingredients, and enhancing our creations with esoterica dug up about various materials.

The thing is, it has been shown before, that some of the research becomes available not because we undertook prior research, but because Snorri was inspired by the events in the game (e.g. translation rune).

I find this particularly rewarding and true to life, and that it makes sense. Snorri gets an idea, because he encounters something that needs solving/understanding.

I like your ideas of chains of research, especially the part about capstones and combining, but it would too artificial if there were only some predestined limited amount of chains.

There should be odds and ends that don't fit in nicely (like the hearthstone you mentioned).

As for the backlog, I don't think we should be able to cut it permanantly to size.

Opportunity costs make our choices worthwhile.

If some venues of research don't interest us, even should they have been available from the start, they never get done.

Now, vaxing and vaning of research amount (in accord with quest events), so that we are periodically incentivized and rewarded to focus on cutting it to size, is something that would work nicely.

In the end, I agree with Boney's take on the matter. Research should always have some backlog.
 
Feels like trying to go for the Anvil research is forced since we would only be doing it due to meta knowledge. Think we should just wait for the guy that makes it to make it. Get the feeling that said guy is a Snerra level genius so if he born soon or already born we wouldn't need to wait that long.

The Anvil seems like a Talisman, so I'm actually hopeful that she might be inspired to look into something like this, given her genius and exceptional skill with talismans.

However, Snorri is likely to be motivated to try to develop something like the Rune of Sorcery. He knows that magic is a key ingredient to make voidstone, and he also knows that the adamant smelters are rate limited by their recharge time (and this seems likely to get worse). That means that he has strong reasons to investigate directing the flow of the Winds of Magic. When Snerra becomes a master I can eaily see Snorri including her in that endeavour.

This measure is actually pretty easy to achieve.

As it stands, it only takes six Smelters to make enough Adamant to armor a dwarf in it every turn. Could we ever armor every single dwarf in Kraka Drakk? Nah, that wouldn't be happening.

Something else to remember is that it's been pretty strongly indicated IC that smelters can be improved.

Yeah its a statement of how we want to spend our time and my point is that if that statement is "I want to make my research category smaller" and I can't then my statement for spending my time is somewhat undercut. With the attendant problems therein.

My expectation, like @veekie's, is that research is probably a tree, with there being more things like the Movement of Things unlocking Mind of Things and Movement of Things part II rather than like the application of the Greedy Heart, because that's what research usually does. I'd expect that doing research on average creates more than one subsequent research project. Particularly more fundamental research, although investigating a specific material's properties is more likely to be an exception to that. I think Voidstone is most likely to be an exception to that exception, as unlike most other materials it's potentially something we can manufacture rather than being naturally occuring. If that is the case, I'd expect it to be a chain like Rune Metal.

Our choices will then be potentially expressed by which research projects we leave uncompleted. They'll just sit there on the options list, with a chance that we'll later encounter a runesmith who has done the research and wants to trade knowledge.
 
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The thing is, it has been shown before, that some of the research becomes available not because we undertook prior research, but because Snorri was inspired by the events in the game (e.g. translation rune).

I find this particularly rewarding and true to life, and that it makes sense. Snorri gets an idea, because he encounters something that needs solving/understanding.
And yeah this is fine, we have no control over it and its just ya know. Its a character thing.

I like your ideas of chains of research, especially the part about capstones and combining, but it would too artificial if there were only some predestined limited amount of chains.

There should be odds and ends that don't fit in nicely (like the hearthstone you mentioned).

As for the backlog, I don't think we should be able to cut it permanantly to size.

Opportunity costs make our choices worthwhile.

If some venues of research don't interest us, even should they have been available from the start, they never get done.

Now, vaxing and vaning of research amount (in accord with quest events), so that we are periodically incentivized and rewarded to focus on cutting it to size, is something that would work nicely.

In the end, I agree with Boney's take on the matter. Research should always have some backlog.
So for a QM perspective here's a thing though. Having a constantly updating, or living tech tree tracking document is hell. Its hell to bookkeep.

And yeah, like the Hearthstones. Weird odds and ends should exist as like little side tangents on this thicket tree.

Now I'm not discussing cutting it down in the context of "It is smaller now and it will Stay That Way" because I fundamentally agree with the premise presented in your idea about ideas spontaneously hitting Snorri. Waxing and waning research is what I'm after here and what I am saying is that given the evidence presented so far that Materials Research is how we achieve a waning and that achieving a waning of the research category, making it smaller for a time, is something we can strive for so we have a smaller pool of things to focus on.

The further argument I am making has very little to actually do with quest specific details in this quest and has more to do with Questing as a game type because it is system commentary for Quests as a whole. Motivations and statements of how we spend our time, as veekie notes, are something I consider critical to Questing and to this Quest albeit for different reasons. In this quest it's important because balancing our time is a central conceit of the game: How do we interact with the Runesmiths dilemma of disappearing into their workshops for extended periods. In Quests it has to do with attracting and keeping players because players come to quests looking to build and fulfill specific motivations. If they expend the effort and make the statement and take the actions and the resolution of their motivation does not occur then there's a problem right?

This extends beyond this question and discussion about research in this quest, to every system in this quest. It may be a problem of communication between player and GM, on either end about intent or motivation. Or a problem with certain base assumptions about how things need to be run and so on and so forth.

As I said I believe we'd essentially need all of the time and/or the quests scope to expand in order to finish every single chain soulcake has in mind and that that is good design because we have beside them other tools which let us manipulate the size of the category if we wish to spend the time doing that and getting goodies out of it. To put it another way: we have these long chains that we can always sink time into and they will grow and spawn new ones as they do, and then besides them we have things which are much shorter and give us lesser goodies with much less investment along with cutting down the size of the category itself and enhancing our other actions like all research does and that this is good design. And in terms of opportunity cost, choosing to spend time clearing out shorter things in a category instead of focusing on the longer term projects or on projects in another category entirely are also valid forms of opportunity cost. They meet the definition of it of "Doing something at the cost of another thing".
 
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Oh, idea. When Snorri learns more about Voidstone, and the circumstances in which they are produced, he to teach how to identify it to his brother or some other traders and ask them to (quietly) see if they can purchase it ("t2 Obsidian") on their travels in holds near where it's creation events occurred.

It could be like rolling against a DC of 75/80/whatever to get a 1d3 pieces and we pay the favour cost of a T2/T3 mat when that happens.
 
Oh, idea. When Snorri learns more about Voidstone, and the circumstances in which they are produced, he to teach how to identify it to his brother or some other traders and ask them to (quietly) see if they can purchase it ("t2 Obsidian") on their travels in holds near where it's creation events occurred.

It could be like rolling against a DC of 75/80/whatever to get a 1d3 pieces and we pay the favour cost of a T2/T3 mat when that happens.
This is probably the fluff effect of using the Order action on Voidstone.
I doubt we'll be in a position where we might get multiple Voidstones per turn as unlike Adamant we have no clear reason to expect that we'll ever need to use multiple Voidstones per turn so simply Ordering it would be enough for our needs as long as we're planning ahead when we set up our Orders.
 
Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin)

Okay, so we want a combo with this armor rune.

One of the things that we've noticed about the failed attempts to combo with the Master Rune of Gromril, is that the Gromril rune is entirely focused on affecting the armor itself, and our attempts have always included a rune that strays from that. This is why our next attempt is slated to be Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Steel, Rune of Iron; other themes aside, they're all about the armor itself.

The Master Rune of Unyielding is different; it explicitly primarily affects the wearer. To combo it, I believe our best bet is to find other runes that affect the wearer.

After weeding out dwarf-specific runes, here's a shortlist runes I was able to find that explicitly affect the user/wearer/bearer instead of just the item:

Rune of Spellbreaking (Makes user almost invulnerable to magical attacks)
Rune of Might (Increases strength of wielder)
Rune of Speed (Makes wielder faster and more agile)
Rune of Guarding (Defends the bearer of the banner)

The most immediate combo I can think of using this list is Spellbreaking and Guarding, to expand the concept of Unyielding to include not yielding to magical threats either.

Anyone have other ideas? Runes I missed?
 
Everybody wants that except the people who think every one of our actions needs to be for the optimal gain for dwarf society as a whole.
They want to use that Rune and combo on armour for some other hero.
Honestly just prefer we not try too hard trying to combo everything. We don't really need to since even things without combos can reach pretty high tier. The main issue I have with combo testing is that they encourage taking up a lot of actions. Example being that I have seen people talking about spending most of a turn doing nothing but combo testing on items. The problem with that line of thinking is that if we used combo testing for everything it would significantly slow us down. I mean we literally had people trying to push to make the Sky Kings armor into a combo during one of the worst daemon incursions in history despite many people pointing out how much of a bad idea that was if they wanted to get the armor on him as soon as possible which was validated as a worry when he left a a few turns into it.

Or to put it another way imagine if people tried that with all of Snorri's equipment slots. Our gear slots are 2 weapons, 2 talismans or a talisman and 1 personal banner and 1 armor. If people tried to min max all of Snorri's gear we could end with a situation where we literally spend 5 turns doing nothing but testing combos for our gear set. And that's just for Snorri himself and not taking into account failing to find a combo that works during turns. To put things into perspective the quest has been going on for 21 turns.

So yeah, rather we not excessively focus on trying to combo everything. So when the time comes to make Snorri's gear rather we not bother with combo tests and just pick the runes we think would be best and if they combo that would be a good bonus.
 
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