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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Some brief comments on stuff as spoons allow:

Noumero said:
Talk to Keiko. Reaffirm you're still family.
  • CCnJ: You both could've handled that better. Hazou shouldn't have tried to override her after it was made clear she thought her decision through. Keiko shouldn't have presented us with an ultimatum; she should've trusted us enough to discuss it in advance, to at least consider other options.
  • Suggest salvaging Keiko's relations with the Pangolins by claiming Hazou ordered to end the deal.
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This is a fine framing of the conflict, but I think it lacks emotional punch. Keiko's problem with Hazou, and the likely reason she didn't trust us to discuss this in advance, is that she feels we aren't on the same wavelength; for us, the genocide is an abstract problem that weighs on our imaginary ledger; for her, it's a stark reality of seeing Condor prisoners executed at a parade in her honour. The primary reason we're in this pickle is that we failed to appreciate and acknowledge how much distress it was causing her. And so, she put up with it until she couldn't anymore, and snapped violently.

I think the first thing we should do here, is undo our initial mistake, and demonstrate that we understand why she felt she needed to do this. Actually, that's the second thing; the first should be to reaffirm that we're not going to try to persuade her to change her decision - Mari poisoned the well for us quite thoroughly, as what we need to say here will sound similar to how she structured her attempt.

In any case, I'd open with apologizing to her for not being the kind of person she could trust (note that this is more an expression of regret than an actual apology for any specific action). And expressing happiness that she managed to find that person (Tenten). Then, we can proceed with the CCnJ.

Noumero said:
Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Thank her for intervening
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Thank her for intervening? What does that even mean. Her intervention was a request for permission to manipulate Keiko to the clan's ends. We don't want to thank her for that.

I do think trying to blame her for this is pointless, and we should be gentle, and reaffirm that we take full responsibility for this. But let's not express anything close to approval of what she's done. "That was my mistake. Please never do that again." is roughly the sentiment I'd go for.
 
Rafin said:
@huhYeahGoodPoint What's the current word count? I would really like a section that makes use of the wedding party. Both because these kinds of events are politically important and because I don't want to miss out seeing a Leaf wedding party.
Below is my own version.

It has 34 words, but it is a first draft, neither optimized for word count nor for actual content. But it should allow for a handful of vignettes without necessarily taking up a whole scene.
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On further reflection, I'm not going to add this scene; I'm just going to trust that if this plan wins, @eaglejarl won't just cut to the end of the wedding event saying "we immediately shut down and went home", perhaps letting the next plan take it.

On the other hand I'm voicing something further down.
Jello_Raptor said:
Uhh, remember what happened the last time we tried to gift something that looked like an unknown seal to a pretty girl? We got her very wet.

I'm not sure this particular method of delivery is reasonable given current tensions and traumas.
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Last time we were dealing with social spec jonin over the water...who happens to be here. Welp.

In any case, this is part of a larger issue, so I'm going to hold that thought?
faflec said:
@huhYeahGoodPoint can we just walk with her to her mansion or something?
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I think that implies a closeness that I'm not sure is there, but it's something I'm considering.
Sentient Tree said:
Looks good to me. Why are we giving Ino the flowers while they're still in the seal though? What's wrong with just taking them out and giving them to her? (Sorry if this has been explained already, I haven't been able to keep up with the discussion recently).

Edit:
I'm gonna agree with Jello Raptor that we should change it, unless there's some compelling reason to give it to her as a seal. If the idea is so that we're giving her a storage seal, remember that she's a clan heir/head so she has plenty of access to seals.
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More to not bring down the mood of the party, though see below.
Jello_Raptor said:
@huhYeahGoodPoint

Also I think the Mari section could use a line like:
  • You have been making progress towards being okay with who you are, please don't do things that make you hate yourself or throw that progress away.
We need to reinforce that Mari's well being includes her self image. In her mental state it's really easy to forget that harm to your self-image and self-trust is harm to yourself.

If there's room, we can even get a read on Mari's internal issues and help her frame her problems in a healthier way.
  • You can see how your actions impact other people, in ways that most can't.
  • With that skill, it's easy to start seeing other people as pieces in a game. As if they're not people, just pawns being used by players like you.
  • You have already done the hard part of noticing that everyone, even those without skill in the game, are people as complex and deep as you are.
  • That said, the ability to influence others is part of who you are. Rejecting that has been tearing you apart.
  • You need to find a way to use your social finesse in a way that honors the agency and humanity of other people.
  • Yes, sometimes this means you will end up hurting others, or pushing them into places they wouldn't end up otherwise.
  • What matters is that you are always trying to achieve a net good and minimize harm to anyone, even your enemies.
  • I know you don't trust your personal definition of right and wrong, which is why I've been lending you mine. (And taking the responsibility for that sense of right and wrong)
  • But I want you to at least start listening to your own definition of wrong as well.
  • Trust that your own distaste or dislike of something also deserves a place on the scale, and weighs just as much against the good of an action as much as my own objections.
The above might be a stab in the dark, but even if I'm completely off base we will learn a lot about what Mari mindset is.

If I'm not completely off base, if this resonates even a bit with her we start her back on a path to a healthier self-image, and reduce the chances of her growing to hate us or breaking completely out of the blue.
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Roomba said:
Thank her for intervening? What does that even mean. Her intervention was a request for permission to manipulate Keiko to the clan's ends. We don't want to thank her for that.

I do think trying to blame her for this is pointless, and we should be gentle, and reaffirm that we take full responsibility for this. But let's not express anything close to approval of what she's done. "That was my mistake. Please never do that again." is roughly the sentiment I'd go for.
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Good news! I agree with both of you, which means I can cut words and put them both in!
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
I'm still turning over how I want my plan to look like, but for now I'll put in a vote for

[X] Action Plan: Impure World Domination

while I figure it out.
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Okay, so I'm trying to consider what I'm accomplishing with the Ino section.

(Thinking out loud)

We know that Ino's lost her dad, who probably meant a lot to her. We also want to talk some business with her, and just be friendly in general.

I'm not sure whether talking to her first as if her dad didn't die at the wedding party is the right move, but at the same time, bringing mourning flowers to a wedding is probably as bad optics as it sounds. I'm sort of split on where to go with this.

Current plan attached:
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
[X] Action Plan: Ino, You Know
  • Reflection
    • (Following Keiko and Tenten's departure)
    • He insisted that Keiko wasn't allowed to stop arms-dealing to the Pangolin ahead of schedule, after she put in considerable thought towards mitigating the issues, on knee-jerk impulse to value the clan over the individual.
    • Hazou very recently expressed the opposite sentiment; the primary difference between then and now being Jiraiya's death and Hazou's assumption of Clan Head.
    • Hazou hated it when Jiraiya did it, so why does he think it is good now?
    • Jiraiya...Jiraiya was great. But - no, and - he had flaws, some of which Hazou picked up.
    • One of them was this. Hazou needs to acknowledge that he has valued the utility to the clan over the people, hurting Keiko and Mari.
      • He ordered Mari to attack Keiko, which deeply wounded both.
    • Resolve to discuss this with the clan.
      • Especially Keiko and Mari.
  • Mari
    • (Soon after reflection)
    • Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko and using her to do so. Reaffirm you take full responsibility for her actions to protect the clan.
      • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". The clan means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and harm its members.
      • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
        • Her self-image is part of her well-being.
        • She's making progress; keep it up!
  • Ino
    • (Retroactively) Get Mari's help on a bouquet of mourning.
      • Considerations:
        • We're friends with Ino, allies to the Yamanaka, but were acquaintances with Inoichi.
      • Seal the bouquet in an empty seal.
    • Meet Ino at the wedding party.
      • Compliment her dress.
      • Express that we're always up to talking with her.
      • Gift her the bouquet seal.
      • Business:
        • Who are the Yamanaka supporting for the Hat?
        • Is there anything we can do to help?
        • Can she introduce us to the diplomatic corps?
      • Thank her for her time.
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faflec said:
Not perfect, but we're getting there. I'll edit more in a couple hours.

Word Count: 351
  • Talk with Keiko:
    • We need to discuss the Seventh Path, and your views on it.
      • What are your exact objections to our previous stance? We've been under the impression that your displeasure were from the carnage caused from our trade, and not specifically her involvement in the affair.
      • Go through our plan with Keiko's exact stance in mind. Can we salvage anything?
        • What about using noncombat seals?
      • Do you have similar objections to dealing with the Toads?
    • You have the final word in all decisions regarding the Pangolins, but we'd appreciate the chance to discuss whether there are better options.
      • How should we present this to them to minimize damage to your relations? Maybe we could blame the decision on Leaf?
      • Leaf's going to have some issues with local chakra beast suppression. We know Summons have strict population controls...maybe we could let them hunt Chakra beasts en masse across Fire to harvest their Chakra?
    • Possible other money-making ideas we should look into:
      • Salt Empire
      • Ice transport
  • Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Thank her for intervening. Reaffirm your full responsibility over any actions she takes to protect the clan.
    • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". "Clan" means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and allow its members to come to harm.
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
  • Go meet Ino.
    • Ask Mari to help arrange a flower bouquet.
      • Intended meaning: "We do not know what we have lost and that makes the loss all the greater".
    • Ask to see Ino.
      • If she's not available, leave the bouquet for her with our name attached.
      • Otherwise:
        • Offer the bouquet and offer to commiserate.
        • It's true. Hazou doesn't know what she's lost.
        • He can only speak to knowing that he loved Ino absolutely.
        • But Hazou'd like to know what we did lose.
        • Talk shop if she's up to it.
          • Who are the Yamanaka - or really, ISC - supporting for the Hat?
          • Is there anything else we can do to help?
          • Can she introduce us to the diplomatic corps?
      • Thank her for her time.
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Thanks, took your version.
 
huhYeahGoodPoint said:
We know that Ino's lost her dad, who probably meant a lot to her. We also want to talk some business with her, and just be friendly in general.

I'm not sure whether talking to her first as if her dad didn't die at the wedding party is the right move, but at the same time, bringing mourning flowers to a wedding is probably as bad optics as it sounds. I'm sort of split on where to go with this.
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Do neither. Talk to Chouza and Chouji, then segue into Ino. ISC are a group so it shouldn't be hard, and even if we don't talk to Ino we still got to send condolences to the Akimichi.

Edit: And then talk to Ino about light stuff, then if appropriate give condolences.
 
faflec said:
Do neither. Talk to Chouza and Chouji, then segue into Ino. ISC are a group so it shouldn't be hard, and even if we don't talk to Ino we still got to send condolences to the Akimichi.

Edit: And then talk to Ino about light stuff, then if appropriate give condolences.
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I mean, offering condolences to Choji at a wedding is still committing the same mistake; I'm honestly wondering how I could do it within the wordcount and whether or not we could use the power of retractivity again.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
@eaglejarl @OliWhail @Velorien If we were to cut this plan into two separate plans, each handling a scene or two only, would that be a benefit or negative for your spoon collections? I'm rather tempted to cut it in half and entitle the second half "Plan Talk to Ino and Keiko Part 2", with the heavy implication that next vote the latter will be put forward.
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Not speaking for @eaglejarl whose update it will be, but for myself having fewer scenes to write per individual plan would be a spoon positive, and would probably result in better writing anyway.
 
Velorien said:
Not speaking for @eaglejarl whose update it will be, but for myself having fewer scenes to write per individual plan would be a spoon positive, and would probably result in better writing anyway.
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Excellent, I was just writing up a post on this!


I think we - that is, everyone who's written a large plan (me, @Noumero, @huhYeahGoodPoint) - should seriously consider splitting our plans up into scenes, and dividing our plans such that the plans being voted for consist of a single scene, with the rest left on the post to be used in the next voting cycle. As an example, my plan would look like this:
  • Talk with Keiko:
    • We need to discuss the Seventh Path, and your views on it.
      • What are your exact objections to our previous stance? We've been under the impression that your displeasure was from the carnage caused from our trade, and not specifically her involvement in the affair.
      • Go through our plan with Keiko's exact stance in mind. Can we salvage anything?
        • What about using noncombat seals?
      • Do you have similar objections to dealing with the Toads?
    • You have the final word in all decisions regarding the Pangolins, but we'd appreciate the chance to discuss whether there are better options.
      • How should we present this to them to minimize damage to your relations? Maybe we could blame the decision on Leaf?
      • Leaf's going to have some issues with local chakra beast suppression. We know Summons have strict population controls...maybe we could let them hunt Chakra beasts en masse across Fire to harvest their Chakra?
    • Possible other money-making ideas we should look into:
      • Salt Empire
      • Ice transport
  • Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Thank her for intervening. Reaffirm your full responsibility over any actions she takes to protect the clan.
    • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". "Clan" means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and allow its members to come to harm.
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
  • Go meet Ino.
    • Ask Mari to help arrange a flower bouquet.
      • Intended meaning: "We do not know what we have lost and that makes the loss all the greater".
    • Ask to see Ino.
      • If she's not available, leave the bouquet for her with our name attached.
      • Otherwise:
        • Offer the bouquet and offer to commiserate.
        • It's true. Hazou doesn't know what she's lost.
        • He can only speak to knowing that he loved Ino absolutely.
        • But Hazou'd like to know what we did lose.
        • Talk shop if she's up to it.
          • Who are the Yamanaka - or really, ISC - supporting for the Hat?
          • Is there anything else we can do to help?
          • Can she introduce us to the diplomatic corps?
      • Thank her for her time.
The red section possibly being left in purely because it's so small. We've recently been reminded that this is the way to go.

Thoughts? Objections?
 
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huhYeahGoodPoint said:
whether or not we could use the power of retractivity again.
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No. There's been too much jumping around lately; any time that hasn't been shown onscreen will have been covered by regular life stuff, or by seal research.


Speaking of, let's take a poll to determine what seal Hazō has been working on. Options are anything that hasn't been completed yet. @faflec has the list. Please mind the capitalization so that we don't end up with things like "force wall" and "Force Wall" needing to be reconciled.

Example:

[x] Seal: Force Wall Seal

Velorien said:
Not speaking for @eaglejarl whose update it will be, but for myself having fewer scenes to write per individual plan would be a spoon positive, and would probably result in better writing anyway.
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This.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Excellent, I was just writing up a post on this!


I think we - that is, everyone who's written a large plan (me, @Noumero, @huhYeahGoodPoint) - should seriously consider splitting our plans up into scenes, and dividing our plans such that the plans being voted for consist of a single scene, with the rest left on the post to be used in the next voting cycle. As an example, my plan would look like this:
  • Talk with Keiko:
    • We need to discuss the Seventh Path, and your views on it.
      • What are your exact objections to our previous stance? We've been under the impression that your displeasure were from the carnage caused from our trade, and not specifically her involvement in the affair.
      • Go through our plan with Keiko's exact stance in mind. Can we salvage anything?
        • What about using noncombat seals?
      • Do you have similar objections to dealing with the Toads?
    • You have the final word in all decisions regarding the Pangolins, but we'd appreciate the chance to discuss whether there are better options.
      • How should we present this to them to minimize damage to your relations? Maybe we could blame the decision on Leaf?
      • Leaf's going to have some issues with local chakra beast suppression. We know Summons have strict population controls...maybe we could let them hunt Chakra beasts en masse across Fire to harvest their Chakra?
    • Possible other money-making ideas we should look into:
      • Salt Empire
      • Ice transport
  • Talk to Mari. Admit your mistake in trying to override Keiko. Thank her for intervening. Reaffirm your full responsibility over any actions she takes to protect the clan.
    • Amend your order: "protect the members of the clan". "Clan" means nothing if we treat it as an abstract ideal and allow its members to come to harm.
    • "Clan" includes her: her well-being matters.
  • Go meet Ino.
    • Ask Mari to help arrange a flower bouquet.
      • Intended meaning: "We do not know what we have lost and that makes the loss all the greater".
    • Ask to see Ino.
      • If she's not available, leave the bouquet for her with our name attached.
      • Otherwise:
        • Offer the bouquet and offer to commiserate.
        • It's true. Hazou doesn't know what she's lost.
        • He can only speak to knowing that he loved Ino absolutely.
        • But Hazou'd like to know what we did lose.
        • Talk shop if she's up to it.
          • Who are the Yamanaka - or really, ISC - supporting for the Hat?
          • Is there anything else we can do to help?
          • Can she introduce us to the diplomatic corps?
      • Thank her for her time.
The red section possibly being left in purely because it's so small. We've recently been reminded that this is the way to go.

Thoughts?
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He is who?

Also, bouquet during a wedding?
 
eaglejarl said:
No. There's been too much jumping around lately; any time that hasn't been shown onscreen will have been covered by regular life stuff, or by seal research.


Speaking of, let's take a poll to determine what seal Hazō has been working on. Options are anything that hasn't been completed yet. @faflec has the list. Please mind the capitalization so that we don't end up with things like "force wall" and "Force Wall" needing to be reconciled.

Example:

[x] Seal: Force Wall Seal


This.
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Got it.
[X] Seal: Extrasensory Seal
 
[X] Seal: Extrasensory Seal

Which is, as I understand it, the upgraded version of the vibrator seal taking Keiko's suggestions (and input from Kagome).


Velorien said:
You have completed the Vibrator Seal ahead of schedule.

You've also observed some secondary effects you may not have originally thought of. Namely, it gets triggered every time anyone within its range emits chakra, including the user, and it is also triggered by any tree or water walking commenced after the seal activates.

Keiko has suggested that you could partially compensate for these secondary effects by improving the seal to respond differently to different intensities of detected chakra emission. This would allow you to make educated guesses as to what abilities your enemies were using (as well as recognise and filter out familiar reactions to your own), and avoid distraction from low-level effects like tree walking without missing them altogether.
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[X] Seal: Extrasensory Seal
e:
@eaglejarl Is it safe to say that Hazou will be going about this in Kagome-approved methods rather than rushing it as we did before in our ignorance of the mechanics?
 
[X] Seal: Extrasensory Seal
[X] Seal: Force Wall Seal
 
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