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Not gonna lie, that plan sounds sweet as hell.

We empowered the Gambler by stumbling onto a bunch of divine power by chance and having Ranald gamble that he could use it.

We can empower the Night Prowler by performing a ritual wherein we steal a divine relic from the God of Greed.

An actual revolution among the skaven where they cast off their chains to the Horned Rat could work for Protector, so maybe leave it for last.

How can we empower the Deciever?

We and Heidi already did by stealing little Mandred from Sigmar.

Stupid question: Where's the Lore of Stealth? I can't find it in 7th Skaven book, and it was the last one. Where do you find the Skaven Eshin Sorcerer?
...
It's in roleplay, under Children of the Horned Rat.
...
Huh. You know, the sorcerer? It might just have what it takes to kill a dragon. Conjured Warpstars hit like a truck and can't miss.

But no, it doesn't seem to have "Summon Verminlord" the spell. But it might be a generic/every sorc gets one kind of thing. Summoning deamons is a thing chaos sorc do, a lot.

Description of Verminlords themselves in Skaven 7E says that Grey Seers jealously guard the summoning ritual, thus it is unlikely that other Skaven casters can do it.

When it comes to whacky bullshit that Ulgu is apparently canonically able to do:

Most of those are from the 1st edition RPG and thus not canon anywhere (much like most of Hysh-stone association which nowadays exists crunch-wise only in one or two Storm of Magic spells)

Also whats the difference between a star and emperor dragon.

Aside from political affiliations (which were already mentioned) Star dragons include both Great and Emperor dragons age-wise, while all Emperor dragons are, obviously, Emperor dragons.
Sun=Young dragon
Moon=Dragon
Star=Great dragon+ (crunch-wise all Stars are "only" Greats, but that's probably a concession to game balance and there are actually Emperor-age Star dragons).

More specifically, it would take nine lucky shots, through toughness nine dragon scale. And if they're not all at once the dragon can just heal them up, because it's got Hysh on tap.

There are several Skaven weapons that deal more than one wound - Weeping blade, Warpstone stars etc.

also, while I know the wiki is suspect I did notice this


"When the Old Ones first crafted their Gates from the substance of stars, I was there to assist their labour. Down the long ages I have come, watching the rise and fall of you lesser races and your civilisations. I've laid waste to knights and cities, burned fields and routed armies in my years. I could tell you much of the world that you have forgotten and more that you never knew, but I think not. You and yours are suited for nothing more than to provide me with amusement and the occasional graceful bauble for my lair. I see little else worthwhile about you."

Brinrairdih, also known as the "The Storm that Roars", Ancient Wyrm.

that is the only Dragon quote i could find...

I really hope Brinrairdih was just an asshole...

That's from an Old World Bestiary supplement for 2E RPG. Other dragon quote from there was already provided in-thread, but here is a dwarven one about them from the same source:

"Dragons collect treasure to acquire a mate. The greater the size of their hoard, the better a given Dragon's prospects are for attracting a breeding partner. Large hoards are typically gained either through might of arms or earned. Yes, I did say earned. It is true that many Dragons seized their hoard through brute strength, most often stealing it from our people, but long ago the Dragons were our friends and allies. They helped carved out some of our halls and helped the Rune Smiths forge a number of the Master Runes and in exchange, we crafted treasures of surpassing beauty that were pleasing to their kind. You will have doubtless heard that we Dwarfs lost the knowledge of how to make some of the most powerful runes of old? Rubbish. When did a Dwarf ever forget anything of value? No, we know how to make them still, but some of the greatest runes require Dragon's Fire to set them into Gromril and after the many betrayals we've suffered, we trust the drakk no more."
– Ulther Harginsson, Dwarf Loremaster
 
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I quote:

We quite literally just sent ten thousand dwarves and their dwarf king into Karag Ziflin.
The mountain hold which is topped by the dragon's lair and hoard. The idea that you have a real choice about getting involved with the dragon after sending your best available dwarven commander into Ziflin is an illusion.

Your only real alternative involves giving up on having any influence on how the Dragon chooses to react to seeing them there.

-Extreme personal risk is not how Mathilde herself characterizes it.
Given as Mathilde actually has met Asarnil's Dragon, held long conversations with Asarnil the Dragonrider, and thus has some idea of what to expect from approaching a Dragon, I'd say she has a better hold on this situation.
I reject the conclusion we have any responsibility or expectation to take this risk, completely and wholeheartedly.
There's no particular reason to think the Dragon will get back to Ziflin within the next hour, and we instructed them to stay well below the peak.
Furthermore, there can be no reasonable expectation that Mathilde can stop an Emperor Dragon doing whatever the hell it wants. No-one could have any expectations of that going in to Ziflin.

I think your assessment of the risk is also off, but as the outcome will as ever be decided by the dice. I just think the 'bad' range is very bad, and we're possibly more likely to see Bad than the usual risks we take. Diplomacy is an area of weakness, outside of select groups.
 
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Those last two are probably even canon to Divided Loyalties to some degree, since Melkoth was stated to have fucked with time to obscure his age in-quest, and Boney mentioned that the Elven mist-mages use Ulgu's associations with mundane winds to speed up their ships, and it's not that far fetched to go from wind manipulation to weather control.
Not trying to argue against WoG but Lothern Mist-Mages could also just be using Azyr to speed their ships and Ulgu to shroud them since, as elves, they don't need to avoid learning and casting more then one wind.
 
While the thread discussed how dragon used Battle Magic to fish for Skaven, one thing I didn't see mentioned is that it's mastered Battle Magic. The spell used is obviously the Net of Amyntok, but in its normal form it can only immobilize its targets, not move them. That means that what we have seen is his own take on it, i.e. a mastery.
 
Not trying to argue against WoG but Lothern Mist-Mages could also just be using Azyr to speed their ships and Ulgu to shroud them since, as elves, they don't need to avoid learning and casting more then one wind.
Boney did say that Ulgu could be used to increase an object's windy-ness, though; elves are known for using multiple lores, but they have specialists too. The ones down in Hoeth are, like, double nerds.
 
@BoneyM

The lore of stealth also has a speed boost spell called Swift Scamper.

Does that mean that we could create a pure ulgu version to give ourselves our own speed of light equivalent?

We should call it the "Speed of Darkness" if we do.

Because darkness is always there before light.
 
Alert: Let's try to be kinder
let's try to be kinder As many of you will be aware, this thread was locked for a short while earlier yesterday (or today depending on your timezone), because of a high volume of outstanding reports which rather alarmed the Staff. Many of these turned out to be the usual products of frustration in arguments, and there were no ongoing issues which really required a lock to cool down. After speaking to @BoneyM, and knowing how many users enjoy this game, I asked for the thread to be re-opened to avoid needlessly disrupting a lot of user's fun.

However, taking a series of snapshots of the thread over the last few weeks did leave me a little bit disquieted. In general, the tone of the conversation here is friendly and full of good cheer, and @BoneyM has told me that when arguments happen they tend to be in fairly good faith and work themselves out, which I'm pleased to hear. But my impression is that when disagreements do arise over what to do in the game, or over what is reasonable, or quite silly reasons, sometimes there can be a surprising amount of vitriol.

When two users expressed their opinions about events in the Quest in perfectly good faith, with no real prospect of altering the vote outcome, they had the Funny rating abused to mock them. I have seen countless incidents where an unnecessary undercurrent of hostility has been expressed towards other users in the course of making arguments. For obvious reasons this often produced more hostility in response. A few of these have required infractions.

Could we all try to do a bit better at this? I understand that Quests like this can be frustrating, but the other players are not trying to hurt you because they disagree with you. Hostility rarely helps in the end. Please, if we could all try to be just a bit kinder to one another, I think this game could be a more welcoming place for everyone.

Thank you all for your time. I'll now turn over to a few individual matters.


Right, no need to say anything to this but "you are utterly delusional".
the spoiler box is a thing people please use it. the blur is both eye damaging and ANNOYING
I respectfully disagree, the blur gives you an idea of how long a spoiler is before you read it, so that you can skip long winded things if you feel like it.

this is not okay @TotallyNotEvil, this is not kind or civil to other users. Even if someone is making a genuinely silly proposal, you can respond to their argument, not by personally attacking them. This has left me no choice but to infract you under Rule 3. Please do not do this again.

@wrecksalot, this was an uncivil and unnecessarily hostile thing to do. When another users has told you that blurry spoilers hurt their eyes, please do not respond to them deliberately using blurry spoilers. That's just an unkind thing to do to another user for essentially no real reason but to show them you can. (The forum seems to have changed the blurry spoiler to a coloured one in the time since the report was made, but this is beside the point.) I've infracted you under Rule 3. Please don't do this again.

Thanks for your time.



Bloody fucking hell these gods damned mods. Learn to separate fiction from reality.

but which is which?

Philosophical questions aside, I'm not particularly bothered by the attack on myself and my fellow staff, and I'm not going to infract you. However, it is rather unfair on your fellow Questers to vent in a thread where they're trying to play a game, and you've received a Staff Note. Please don't do this again.

In future, if you want to yell into the void in frustration, and let's be real, we've all been there, please use the appropriate venue.




Well, IIRC, the We prefer live captures. The corpses get used for fertilizer.

And man, a battle of this scale, provided we can properly secure the bodies (may be less than likely, seeing how the biggest fighting is in the west), means a ton of fertilizer.
Corpses are being used as fertilizer for our nutrient-depleted fields.

Survivors are spooder food.

Which makes me wonder... how come we haven't asked a captured orc about Mhonar?
Until someone got the idea of farming orcs or skaven for spider food.

I wonder if we became the orcish equivalent of hellmistress.
He then contracts one of the Engineers and ends up creating a massive Blender large enough to turn dozens of Skaven and Goblins into a meat slurry.
I for one think the Dearfs would greatly enjoy creating a massive steam powered blender for the sole purpose of turning their ancestral enemies into chunky salsa smoothies.
Hey can we stop now please? This is getting towards the Creepy Zone.

only accept free range orcs and skaven with high welfare standards
In general, @BungieONI captures my rough feelings on all of these posts pretty well.

None of you are being actioned for these posts, and that actually shows good progress, I hope. Each of these posts ultimately was within the line, but I would like you all to know that they were just within the line. I had to personally review each one of them, and weigh up the merits. I realise that it was mostly kidding around, but please, be a bit more mindful in how you're posting in future. At a cursory glance some of these posts may have gotten infractions.

Thank you all for your time.

(Also, don't use corpses as fertiliser unless you've thoroughly composted them first. Look up Mad Cow Disease.)


...

Why is it we haven't made some long-term plans to fully exterminate the rats again?

please don't do this
This is exactly what the thread has been asked to discuss carefully and mindfully before, or perhaps to avoid discussing as it is utterly unrealistic and can easily go to unpleasant places. This is neither careful or thoughtful. I've given you Staff Note and a short break, please be more mindful in future.

Thanks for your time.



this concludes our messages for today Thank you all for your time.

 
I think your assessment of the risk is also off, but as the outcome will as ever be decided by the dice. I just think the 'bad' range is very bad, and we're possibly more likely to see Bad than the usual risks we take. Diplomacy is an area of weakness, outside of select groups.

Consider though, that Mathilde's diplomacy maluses come in partly because of traits that make sense from the perspective of mortals, but not likely from the perspective of Dragons. I don't think the Dragon cares particularly that Mathilde's low diplomacy is driven by Bureaucrat or Interrogator. I have a suspicion that there will be more than one roll as this is a potentially quest ending event, and some of them will be based on Intrigue (sensing motives), Piety (Mathilde serves order) and Learning (Mathilde knowledge of Dragons, geography, and History).
 
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Wow, one of the biggest staff posts I've ever seen. Can't help but wonder why this thread has the most arguments I've ever seen.
 
Wow, one of the biggest staff posts I've ever seen. Can't help but wonder why this thread has the most arguments I've ever seen.

It's the single most active thread on the site, I've heard it makes up something like almost 20% of all posts on SV on somedays so with so many posts and members talking more arguments will happen here then other threads due to there just being more chances for arguments
 
Wow, one of the biggest staff posts I've ever seen. Can't help but wonder why this thread has the most arguments I've ever seen.

This quest has an update rate of less than 48 hours - this makes for a very active thread as there is something to discuss most of the time, as the story moves fast. It being on the front page of Quest for the past months means that it is known to probably everyone on the quest forum, which brings in even more posters....
 
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Weighing in on the plan for empowering Ranald's aspects, the best thing I can think of for Deciever would be to trick a god with some sort of lie. My first thought is to convince Tzeentch of something, maybe that we would want to be his champion and get him to invest us with power? That or... Hmm, maybe turning a Champion away from Tzeentch and towards Ranald would work? The first runs the risk of, you know, making a deal with the dark gods, but I'm not sure if the second would be thematic enough. On the other hand, Horstmann might still be a servant of Chaos, and if we get theurgy or the Aetheric Vitae working, it might be enough to tempt him away.
 
Wow, one of the biggest staff posts I've ever seen. Can't help but wonder why this thread has the most arguments I've ever seen.
In addition to everything else already mentioned, consider the fact that we're on nearly FOUR THOUSAND PAGES of discussion. It'd be outright surprising if it didn't contain a lot of all types of behavior simply from the sheer amount of content
 
Weighing in on the plan for empowering Ranald's aspects, the best thing I can think of for Deciever would be to trick a god with some sort of lie. My first thought is to convince Tzeentch of something, maybe that we would want to be his champion and get him to invest us with power? That or... Hmm, maybe turning a Champion away from Tzeentch and towards Ranald would work? The first runs the risk of, you know, making a deal with the dark gods, but I'm not sure if the second would be thematic enough. On the other hand, Horstmann might still be a servant of Chaos, and if we get theurgy or the Aetheric Vitae working, it might be enough to tempt him away.
Any plan that includes mainlining chaos energy is a bad plan. :V
 
On Ulgu Sword spells:
-I'm looking at our difficulties with Shadow Knives being creating Shadow Blades when we miscast and the things just don't fly straight. This suggests to me that it might be Moderately Complicated, as a lower level version of Shadow Knives which can't be thrown.
--Shift a step sideways. Aqshy has Flaming Sword of Ruin(Non-Battle Magic version) at the same level. Its, as far as I can tell, extra damaging compared to a normal sword, certainly Adela killed her orc as fast as Hubert despite being kind of a crappy swordswoman.
--A Shadow Blade as a reverse engineered Mastery of our Shadow Knives has the following attributes compared to Shadow Knives:
---Shadow Knives creates Magic/2 blades that attacks the target. This creates one blade. This is a big deal.
---Shadow Knives ignores nonmagical armor. It should share the same attributes
---Shadow Knives has range. Quite a bit of it. Shadow Blade shouldn't have range.
---Shadow Knives are instant. Shadow Blade should have a duration.

Solve for spell level:
-Trade range off for duration - Equivalent exchange.
-Trade multi-blades off.

So looks like the gap between Shadow of Death and Dread Aspect. So we could make a Moderately Complicated version which just trims off the extras from Shadow Knives, or we could make a Fiendishly Complex version which formalizes it and maybe makes the blade bigger/longer. Former should be more useful to the College, lots of Journeymen have a use for it.

It takes traits to invent spells, but we are a Master Swordswoman, which allows that.
And it also explains why it wasn't already invented. How many master swordsmen are in the Grey Order instead of more practical ranged weapons?
 
Any plan that includes mainlining chaos energy is a bad plan. :V
Is there another god of liars and trickery that might suit? Tzeentch was just the first that came to mind. On the other hand, convincing someone else to do it for us might work. Also, wouldn't the Belt protect us from adverse effects? I'm not exactly sure how Warp energy and Dhar relate, but I remember that rune was originally created to protect from Chaos.
 
Is there another god of liars and trickery that might suit? Tzeentch was just the first that came to mind. On the other hand, convincing someone else to do it for us might work. Also, wouldn't the Belt protect us from adverse effects? I'm not exactly sure how Warp energy and Dhar relate, but I remember that rune was originally created to protect from Chaos.
The elves have a god of trickery called Loec. I think Halflings have one as well. We could always dunk on Mork more. :V
 
I reject the conclusion we have any responsibility or expectation to take this risk, completely and wholeheartedly.
There's no particular reason to think the Dragon will get back to Ziflin within the next hour, and we instructed them to stay well below the peak.
Furthermore, there can be no reasonable expectation that Mathilde can stop an Emperor Dragon doing whatever the hell it wants. No-one could have any expectations of that going in to Ziflin.

I think your assessment of the risk is also off, but as the outcome will as ever be decided by the dice. I just think the 'bad' range is very bad, and we're possibly more likely to see Bad than the usual risks we take. Diplomacy is an area of weakness, outside of select groups.
In quick order:
-We command the Throng of K8P. By choice.
We already put ten thousand dwarves in harms way in Ziflin. Denying responsibility doesn't make it stop existing.
If we didn't want the job we could have handed it over to Gunnars.

- The Dragon took several hours long with an intact, entrenched Clan Skyre that numbered tens of thousands and remained relatively fresh.
The combined forces of Mors and Eshin number less than twenty thousand, probably less than ten thousand.
They are exhausted after several hours of butchery to boot, the fortifications in Karag Yar have been trashed, and ammunition will be low.

This is not looking to be a long fight, unless someone has something like a Verminlord summoning scroll in their back pocket.

-If you think the Dragon is too indiscriminately homicidal to talk to in Karag Yar, a hold that is nowhere near it's lair and thus is of no immediate threat, I don't see why you think that staying below the peak in Ziflin, where the same Dragon just killed every Skaven will somehow convey some sort of immunity on the dwarven Throng we sent in there.

-There are no modern maps of Karag Ziflin.
None. Zilch. Not of the aboveground or belowground portions, because no one was going to risk feeding scouts into a mountain held by Eshin.

And this is further complicated by the fact that there is possible chemical warfare residue in much of the mountain, meaning that any attack is going to be slow and methodical so as not to get people poisoned unnecessarily.
I think you are going to be sadly disappointed if you expect them to be finished quickly like they were elsewhere.

-Nothing about stopping.
Everything about either talking it into a truce, or getting enough prewarning of it's attitudes to get out and withdraw our forces from Ziflin so they can bunker up against attack.

Mathilde literally wrote the book on Asarnil and his companion Dragon.
Uniquely among the current inhabitants of K8P, she has personal experience of dealing with an Old Dragon. There is a reason she ranks the dangers of this current situation as much preferable to attempting to talk to Black Hunger Skaven in an active warzone.
 
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