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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Please also keep in mind that we still don't have the result of the grudge digging, we are in no position to offer any kind of long term deal.
Even if we figure out that those can be forgiven for his actions here, offering that would still be a huge breach of trust, we are no dwarf and no grudge settler or whatever they are called.
If we have to do it to secure the Karak, they might understand, if we of our own volition go to meet with the dragon when it wasn't necessary then we have betrayed the trust Belegar placed in us.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
If it's not hostile, then we don't need to negotiate with it right now. If it is hostile, we will probably die trying to negotiate with it right now.
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We negotiate with it now to put a foot in the door and make the dragon more likely to be amenable to negotiations later.

And that's beside basically neutralizing the last real front K8P has (at least until the Waaagh passes over.
 
I just went through all the rolls since the Battle began and we've been incredibly lucky. Counting the visible d100 rolls that involved us, we are now in the top 1% of results.
Let's hope our luck doesn't turn and I didn't jinx it by acknowledging it.
 
The main issue with a successful parlay is that it would only be polite to let the dragon choose which mountain for it to keep the Orcs out. It would be quite reasonable for it to choose Ziflin as that's where it keeps its stuff. That leaves us with job of making Yar secure after all and we would have to either make sure there's a Skaven winner capable of holding the gate or wipe both sides out and make the gate impassable ourselves - both dangerous tasks. The dragon could help us, after all it seems like it's wiping out both sides now, but once it knows that we want it to do that it's bound to demand a price...
 
Deathbybunnies said:
If it's not hostile, then we don't need to negotiate with it right now. If it is hostile, we will probably die trying to negotiate with it right now.
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If it is hostile and attacks us now, it'll do so and move on to keep killing Skaven. We won't be its sole focus, so there's a good chance that after it kills us we'll be fine to get back up.

And then we'll know that we need to get ready for war with it right now.
 
das_slash said:
Please also keep in mind that we still don't have the result of the grudge digging, we are in no position to offer any kind of long term deal.
Even if we figure out that those can be forgiven for his actions here, offering that would still be a huge breach of trust, we are no dwarf and no grudge settler or whatever they are called.
If we have to do it to secure the Karak, they might understand, if we of our own volition go to meet with the dragon when it wasn't necessary then we have betrayed the trust Belegar placed in us.
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First of all, we just need to make a short-term "you be cool and I'll be cool" agreement in the face of a common enemy. Second of all, Redshirt addressed this yesterday in his draft treaty that got everyone arguing:
Redshirt Army said:
BARRING such greviances against the dwarf peoples as to incur a Grudge, unknown to either party at the time of the agreement, it is established that:
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Quest said:
See here's the thing. We don't know if we'll get a better chance. We aren't exactly spoiled for choice here. For all we know, it may decide to clear the entire Karak dwarves and all. It may be annoyed at the army of Gyro-copters incoming and attack them. It may decide it doesn't like there being an Ulgu superweapon and attack us. You are essentially arguing for not contacting the dragon at all during the mini-turn which isn't something we have the luxury of.
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During the mini turn where said dragon is in the middle of a rampage that has already killed tens of thousands.

We are alone the dragon can dispell our magical escape methods.

The only positive about the dragon is that it's likely tired as hell
 
Deathbybunnies said:
If the dragon is hostile, we are probably not walking out of that negotiation alive. We're good, but we aren't good enough to get away from a hostile Emperor dragon with Hysh of all magics.

Our armed forces won't be busy with the Waaagh, since we'll be taking care of that with the Eye.
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It would still be defending against the Waagh because the dragon would destroy the Eye. And we can teleport while it's hunting other creatures.
Deathbybunnies said:
If it's not hostile, then we don't need to negotiate with it right now. If it is hostile, we will probably die trying to negotiate with it right now.
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Did you perhaps consider that it wouldn't even know we were capable of negotiating? There is a lot of things between it hates us and it loves us.
 
kingreaper said:
If it is hostile and attacks us now, it'll do so and move on to keep killing Skaven. We won't be its sole focus, so there's a good chance that after it kills us we'll be fine to get back up.

And then we'll know that we need to get ready for war with it right now.
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An Emperor dragon is precisely the kind of enemy that can notice the seed doing it's work, please do not commit suicide.
 
das_slash said:
Let this play out, chances are the elites can still kill the dragon and it will no longer be a problem.
Hell, if we ask for parley now, it might bring us into this fight as a proof of our intentions, when he is dealing with it for free.
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Yeah no, the dragon is fully capable of besting the remaining Skaven. Emperor dragons are threats that take entire armies to deal with, and the Skaven that are left are not armies.
 
das_slash said:
Please also keep in mind that we still don't have the result of the grudge digging, we are in no position to offer any kind of long term deal.
Even if we figure out that those can be forgiven for his actions here, offering that would still be a huge breach of trust, we are no dwarf and no grudge settler or whatever they are called.
If we have to do it to secure the Karak, they might understand, if we of our own volition go to meet with the dragon when it wasn't necessary then we have betrayed the trust Belegar placed in us.
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So as I've said before and as I think Mathilde should realize because she's smart and its Parlay and not Negotiate the only authority we have is to get a basic non-aggression assurance from the dragon for this battle and a bit beyond it.

Deathbybunnies said:
If it's not hostile, then we don't need to negotiate with it right now. If it is hostile, we will probably die trying to negotiate with it right now.
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A bit of an inaccurae dichotomy because if its hostile it will try to kill us is true, but if its not hostile right now it may well decide it wants to be hostile later. If we can talk to it now then I think we should give it a go for the reasons I initally laid out, and to take the chance of heading off it being hostile to us.
 
das_slash said:
An Emperor dragon is precisely the kind of enemy that can notice the seed doing it's work, please do not commit suicide.
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It's capable of killing us, sure. But it'd have to decide it wanted to kill the human that wants to talk far more than it wants to kill the rats in order for it to decide to stick around to be sure we stay dead, and then make us doubly dead.

I don't think it hating us more than it hates the skaven is a realistic possibility, so I don't consider attempting to parlay a meaningful risk of death.
 
So this is completely irrelevant to the current discussion, but I had a thought that I didn't want to forget.after this whole war is over and we finally get around to making use of all our loot, we're going to give the dwarves copies of all the Skaven technology, right? Who would be up for requesting a dwarves made Jezzail equivalent, preferably with the Rune of the Unknown so we don't have to carry it around everywhere? Mathilde could totally become a super sniper, especially if the dwarves figure out a way to not need two people holding it up.
 
Ericwinter said:
So this is completely irrelevant to the current discussion, but I had a thought that I didn't want to forget.after this whole war is over and we finally get around to making use of all our loot, we're going to give the dwarves copies of all the Skaven technology, right? Who would be up for requesting a dwarves made Jezzail equivalent, preferably with the Rune of the Unknown so we don't have to carry it around everywhere? Mathilde could totally become a super sniper, especially if the dwarves figure out a way to not need two people holding it up.
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Rune of the unknown is melee weapons only unfortunately.
 
emberwing said:
During the mini turn where said dragon is in the middle of a rampage that has already killed tens of thousands.

We are alone the dragon can dispell our magical escape methods.

The only positive about the dragon is that it's likely tired as hell
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For one thing, we don't need magical escape methods. We just need a tunnel it can't fit inside. We know that it needed a spell to catch skaven from similar tunnels. If it tries anything on us, don't forget that we can dispel too and in the worst case scenario, we have our belt to protect us so that we can get far enough.

Later, assuming it doesn't assume we are hostile and attacks us we'll be negotiating in it's lair with sub-zero temperatures and no convenient escape route.

We also have the talking points of "We both hate skaven" and "million strong waaagh!" that we will lack later.
 
Something to consider is that we don't know what the dragon will do after it's done with the skaven. Maybe it goes back to sleep, maybe it goes off to kill orcs, maybe it just ups and fucks off to another mountain. Absolute worst case is that it decides that it needs to start killing dwarves for whatever reason.

Talking with the dragon now clears up that unknown. Maybe it's already hostile to us, which lets us know we need to scuttle back and prep for its arrival. Maybe it's not hostile, but Matty rolls bad and pisses it off, which also lets us know we to to get home and prepare. Best case is that it's not hostile and we make inroads to an agreement with it.

The point being that no matter how the talk goes it will inform us on how to proceed, rather than not talking and leaving it to chance on what the dragon does. Personally I'd prefer a shred of warning that the dragon is hostile over yet another bit of shiney stuff that we'll never get around researching. In my mind even the tiniest amount of time to ready our forces for what the dragon does is worth far more than whatever magic tricks the eishin have(and also it's skaven magic so it's probably all corrupted with dhar so we won't be able to use it all that well anyway)
 
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Ericwinter said:
So this is completely irrelevant to the current discussion, but I had a thought that I didn't want to forget.after this whole war is over and we finally get around to making use of all our loot, we're going to give the dwarves copies of all the Skaven technology, right? Who would be up for requesting a dwarves made Jezzail equivalent, preferably with the Rune of the Unknown so we don't have to carry it around everywhere? Mathilde could totally become a super sniper, especially if the dwarves figure out a way to not need two people holding it up.
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Rune of the Unknown is a melee weapon rune, so we can't put it on a sniper rifle.

(also oh god the rifle debate IT'S BACK)

That said, yes, definitely, give Gotri full copies of the skaven schematics. Let him upgrade dwarf clatterguns with anything he can learn from those technical manuals we stole.
 
Demonstrating common cause by assisting the dragon in battle might not be a terrible idea.
Quest said:
What plan could we make? We can't sneak up on it, Hysh and extreme cold make sure of that. We can't bring our armies or our Runelords. It's a hysh battle-mage that is also a dragon. I really don't fancy fighting it in it's equivalent of our tower.
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If we had to fight the dragon, the smart idea would be to hit up the runelords for the anti-dragon gear. Dwarves have been fighting dragons for so long they developed special runes just for killing them. Hopefully they have some of the appropriate weapons and armor in an armory somewhere, there wouldn't be time to make new ones. They could be given to some dwarves who feel up to tackling the beast. I wouldn't give them great odds, still, even with Mathilde's help.

Really best not to have to fight the dragon.
 
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kingreaper said:
It's capable of killing us, sure. But it'd have to decide it wanted to kill the human that wants to talk far more than it wants to kill the rats in order for it to decide to stick around to be sure we stay dead, and then make us doubly dead.

I don't think it hating us more than it hates the skaven is a realistic possibility, so I don't consider attempting to parlay a meaningful risk of death.
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Even if it doesn't notice the seed and double murder us, it's still a dragon and we are still carrying lots of valuable shit.
No,.having the dragon bat us down it's not a viable strategy, if you think there is a chance of the dragon being hostile please so not engage it.
 
Abhorsen said:
I would note that ensuring Mors die here is incredibly important, as that would make the chance of Mors dying off completely very high. Mors dying off completely is of paramount long term importance, as their unity is one of the paramount long term threats to all of the Order factions. If we kill off Mors, we have dealt a permanent blow to Skaven unity, and that is vital.
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True, but what if we can aim that unity straight at the under-empire?
We get a redemption arc and a new order faction in one
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
If we had to fight the dragon, the smart idea would be to hit up the runelords for the anti-dragon gear. Dwarves have been fighting dragons for so long they developed special runes just for killing them. Hopefully they have some of the appropriate weapons and armor in an armory somewhere, there wouldn't be time to make new ones.
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I was specifically asking for a plan for when the dragon was hostile and in it's lair which is on the top of a mountain, has sub-zero temperatures and is the home of a 10000+ year old mage. You can't exactly take armies and Runeforges up there.
 
das_slash said:
It would take a lucky shot, but it is entirely possible.
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I feel you are vastly underestimating the dragon here. It waltzed into the fully armed and dug in skyres and just wiped them out. The units left on the field are not the right kind to threaten a dragon. if the skaven rolls a crit they might kill it. But I really don't think its a likely possibility.
 
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