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... Was this not obvious? I don't mean that insultingly, I thought that was clear as soon as we built the thing.
I don't think we were expecting the dragon to wake up. Now the omission is potentially highly relevant if it assaults the citadel or tries to torch the fields.

Or worst of all, if it attacks our tower.
 
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Guys. I uh. I just realized something.

We never made a 'Dragon' crystal for our doomfortress superweapon, did we?

So if the dragon shows up above ground, the only way to use the Eye on it is if Mathilde's there.

Granted, I'm not sure if the Eye would injure it much or not, but something to keep in mind.
I doubt we need to micromanage the crystals that much, otherwise the natural response would be to write up a list of everything under the sun and hand it to Boney, i doubt either party wants that.
 
I doubt we need to micromanage the crystals that much, otherwise the natural response would be to write up a list of everything under the sun and hand it to Boney, i doubt either party wants that.
The post was pretty specific about what we made. I think it might matter. And there aren't that many races, really, at least if you exclude the rare weird stuff like the We.
 
I doubt we need to micromanage the crystals that much, otherwise the natural response would be to write up a list of everything under the sun and hand it to Boney, i doubt either party wants that.
There is a specific list of crystals in the post where it's being designed. Dragons were not included.
 
Two things: One, this is not a civil case, in a civilized world, where law rules all. Semantics, perhaps, but still relevant so try to keep the cultural connotations of how either side would view it. And two, you're assuming the dragon wants compensation. Yeah, paying the dragon would be a fair price, but it doesn't have to be a necessary one. If we approach it with a fair offer--the dragon stays in its part of the mountain, we stay in ours, and everybody is happy--and it proceeds to demand we start paying it/providing services or it will attack us? That's not a reasonable being. that's something which will turn on you at the drop of a hat and which you should not be negotiating with because it considers you hostile. On the other hand, if it does not start making demands and accepts the deal, then you're're good. Starting off with an unfair deal is a horrible strategy in anything, and anything which tries to turn a fair deal into a bad one shouldn't be dealt with at all.
So a point I don't understand is why paying in gold or silver being necessary or unnecessary actually has much bearing on this discussion. Belegar is sitting on an astounding amount of money, natively and has at least three options for more in the We, Silk Road trading and Karagil mining. He has so much of it that its actual value to us is pretty natively low, but as it is still gold and or silver it is valuable to a dragon because of their natures.

If it is natively of lower than normal value to us, why is paying a being that likes it and values it more than we do and will continue to do so, an issue when you can basically frame it as "Being polite only costs you breath and might save you a lot of trouble"? Where in this case "polite" translates to "Do something that is very likely to make it more pleasant to deal with" if we can even deal with it at all on the diplomatic level.

If, in a negotiation where both beings can cause problems for each other, you have a thing you both value but one of the parties values far more than you do giving that party that thing is a simple move to buy goodwill.
 
The post was pretty specific about what we made. I think it might matter. And there aren't that many races, really, at least if you exclude the rare weird stuff like the We.
It wasnt? unless it was a post outside the update that i missed.
"If you check the other side of the panel, there's a series of crystals in labelled pockets. Take the one marked 'grobi', insert it into the socket, and flip the switch."
To me, that implied that we have crystals as the situation requieres.

There is a specific list of crystals in the post where it's being designed. Dragons were not included.
Could you point me to it? i must have missed it.

Edit: alright, i finally found it.

Current signatures: Greenskins, Ogres, Beastmen, Undead, Daemon (one signature for each Chaos God), Skaven

Honestly i am surprised the signatures were not handwaved, how expensive are the crystal? why did we not make a dragon one after we found out about it? what about compound crystals? (Grobi+skaven, or grobi+wyverns, etc) this is something that we should have addressed a long time ago.
 
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Everyone is so concerned with what's going on in Belegarquest, when the real question is what's going on in Eshin Assassin #3794012 Quest?
 
Guys. I uh. I just realized something.

We never made a 'Dragon' crystal for our doomfortress superweapon, did we?

So if the dragon shows up above ground, the only way to use the Eye on it is if Mathilde's there.

Granted, I'm not sure if the Eye would injure it much or not, but something to keep in mind.
We also didnt build the anti aircraft tower. Curse our hubris!
 
I don't think we were expecting the dragon to wake up. Now the omission is potentially highly relevant if it assaults the citadel or tries to torch the fields.

Or worst of all, if it attacks our tower.
It's a high level battle magic wielder. I believe chances are reasonable the Dragon could counterspell the Burning Shadows delivery mechanism at least as easily as Mathilde could.
Or do Hysh stuff like "emit shining brightness akin to the sun" and essentially render Shadows=No.

I don't think we can rely on the tower as anti-dragon superweapon, let alone compensate for the problems in hitting it if it's flying.
 
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So a point I don't understand is why paying in gold or silver being necessary or unnecessary actually has much bearing on this discussion. Belegar is sitting on an astounding amount of money, natively and has at least three options for more in the We, Silk Road trading and Karagil mining. He has so much of it that its actual value to us is pretty natively low, but as it is still gold and or silver it is valuable to a dragon because of their natures.

If it is natively of lower than normal value to us, why is paying a being that likes it and values it more than we do and will continue to do so, an issue when you can basically frame it as "Being polite only costs you breath and might save you a lot of trouble"? Where in this case "polite" translates to "Do something that is very likely to make it more pleasant to deal with" if we can even deal with it at all on the diplomatic level.

If, in a negotiation where both beings can cause problems for each other, you have a thing you both value but one of the parties values far more than you do giving that party that thing is a simple move to buy goodwill.
I think you're underestimating the stubborn pride of the Dwarves. We're talking about a people that entered into a semi-genocidal war with the Elves because their ambassador had his beard shaved (and possibly beheaded).

The actual value of the Dragons horde becomes immaterial if negotiations break down because all that matters is that it is, as far as the Dwai think, theirs.
 
The Eye of Gazul was never really intended as an anti-air platform in the first place, and an Emperor Dragon with Hysh is about the single worst possible target for the thing.

And if we ever were desperate enough to try anyway, Mathilde would be running the tower and the lack of a "dragon" keystone wouldn't matter.
 
Honestly i am surprised the signatures were not handwaved, how expensive are the crystal? why did we not make a dragon one after we found out about it? what about compound crystals? (Grobi+skaven, or grobi+wyverns, etc) this is something that we should have addressed a long time ago.
We can take actions to enchant new targeting keys if we can study the target with windsage
 
I think you're underestimating the stubborn pride of the Dwarves. We're talking about a people that entered into a semi-genocidal war with the Elves because their ambassador had his beard shaved (and possibly beheaded).

The actual value of the Dragons horde becomes immaterial if negotiations break down because all that matters is that it is, as far as the Dwai think, theirs.
Worth remembering in that regard that the beard is one of the most important religious and cultural aspects of Dwarfs, and it was delivered on top of a massive "Fuck you" from the Elf King at the time.

If the dwarves and Belegar, who is not your typical dwarf, want to decide that it is all theirs then that's for them to decide. At which point we need to be planning on killing it and I expect such a decision to come before we start actually engaging with negotiation with the Dragon. Since actual negotiation is Belegar's job as King.

If they so decide, then fine, I'm all cool with trying to assassinate it much like I am if it has Grudges.

However, based on Belegar being rather human like for a Dwarf and very astute at Stewardship our problems coming from the Dwarves, barring Grudges, I expect to be solveable.
 
Snikch
While a master of murder, it is likely that Snikch is also behind many of the ratmen's most devious acts of sabotage. The Great Fire of Lothern, the bombing of the Imperial Navy in the Reiksport, and the destruction of Dwarf Engineer Thornik Thorson's Iron Cog-dragon on the eve of the Battle of the Bitter Peak, yet no one truly knows if this is the work of the mysterious Deathmaster.
@BoneyM has this "iron cog-dragon" been invented yet? Also how's Dromgar, Belegar's brother, doing?
 
So a point I don't understand is why paying in gold or silver being necessary or unnecessary actually has much bearing on this discussion. Belegar is sitting on an astounding amount of money, natively and has at least three options for more in the We, Silk Road trading and Karagil mining. He has so much of it that its actual value to us is pretty natively low, but as it is still gold and or silver it is valuable to a dragon because of their natures.
Actually, i am not sure if Belegar is sitting on Money:yes anymore, unrelatedly to everything else in your post Bungie. I think dwindling has been used some time in the past updates when talking about his money stockpile.
 
Actually, i am not sure if Belegar is sitting on Money:yes anymore, unrelatedly to everything else in your post Bungie. I think dwindling has been used some time in the past updates when talking about his money stockpile.
Fair enough if so, but he is sitting on some truly stupendous money taps and I'm pretty sure his cash far outstrips ours.
 
I wonder how likely it is the Dragon mistakes Mat for an Eshin, since she smells like them, and uses Ulgu. Or their Sorcerer, or another like him. Since she is their human equivalent. Attacks her thinking she's an Eshin Skaven.
 
So a point I don't understand is why paying in gold or silver being necessary or unnecessary actually has much bearing on this discussion. Belegar is sitting on an astounding amount of money, natively and has at least three options for more in the We, Silk Road trading and Karagil mining. He has so much of it that its actual value to us is pretty natively low, but as it is still gold and or silver it is valuable to a dragon because of their natures.

If it is natively of lower than normal value to us, why is paying a being that likes it and values it more than we do and will continue to do so, an issue when you can basically frame it as "Being polite only costs you breath and might save you a lot of trouble"? Where in this case "polite" translates to "Do something that is very likely to make it more pleasant to deal with" if we can even deal with it at all on the diplomatic level.

If, in a negotiation where both beings can cause problems for each other, you have a thing you both value but one of the parties values far more than you do giving that party that thing is a simple move to buy goodwill.
Eeeeeeeh, first off, let me begin by saying that if it were just money, I wouldn't be nearly as opposed. Money isn't a big deal, it's mostly the services that pissed me off. On the other hand, it's still paying the dragon to not attack us. I don't.... I really shouldn't have to explain why that concept is just stupid. You should never have to pay someone not to kill you, and if you do, than that person is legitimately a danger, and thus should be removed. If two beings can't live peacefully in the same vicinity without some sort of tribute from one side or the other, they shouldn't be living in the same vicinity at all.
In a slightly tangential note, I'm not opposed to paying the dragon for some of the non-monetary treasures in its hoard, which would suit just fine as giving it gold to make things smoother, especially if we buy at a higher price for the courtesy. That, at least, I would agree with, as it's at least an actual transaction instead of enforcing non-action.
 
I think you're underestimating the stubborn pride of the Dwarves. We're talking about a people that entered into a semi-genocidal war with the Elves because their ambassador had his beard shaved (and possibly beheaded).

The actual value of the Dragons horde becomes immaterial if negotiations break down because all that matters is that it is, as far as the Dwai think, theirs.

Mathilde has command at the moment and Belegar, being a lot less traditional and more pragmatic will back her up on a lot of stuff, particularly since the rest of the Karak has been by and large reconquered.
 
Hey @BoneyM I've got a random question. How hard would it be, exactly, to replicate the Tower of Burning Shadows? Like, I don't imagine the Rune of Gazul could be added anywhere else, but what about just a plain old tower that has all the other neat features Mathilde's does? It would take a few Power Stones, I imagine, and a lot of constructing and enchanting, but now that the first one has been made could Mathilde or another Grey Magister/Magister Lord build others? Hell, even building one without all our special functions like moving the sun and lighting a fire to shoot at night would be good. I ask because well beyond Karak Eight Peaks, this would be an incredibly powerful weapon for any dwarf hold to possess, and depending on how things go with the Red Fangs Waaaagh, I could totally see Thorgrim deciding he wants one, and the same for other Dwarf Kings. It wouldn't be cheap, by any measure of the word, but the Karaz Ankor is far richer in coin than it is in lives needed to stop Waaaaaghs and other threats. If every dwarf hold had a tower or two basically denying any overland sieges or even just passing armies of greenskins, that could be a serious boon to their strategic situation, and could start breaking the cultural need for every dwarf to be a warrior.

They'd need to be willing to owe favours to the Grey College, which doesn't take payment in cash, and more favours than Mathilde paid because Mathilde performed a chunk of the work herself. The only King that might even consider it is King Kazador and that's because he's mentally categorized the Grey College as the Guild of Mathildes. Also all the already-established Dwarven Karaks are incredibly enormously defended against overland attackers.

Current signatures: Greenskins, Ogres, Beastmen, Undead, Daemon (one signature for each Chaos God), Skaven

Honestly i am surprised the signatures were not handwaved, how expensive are the crystal? why did we not make a dragon one after we found out about it? what about compound crystals? (Grobi+skaven, or grobi+wyverns, etc) this is something that we should have addressed a long time ago.

None of the Colleges have had someone collate the magical signatures of every known variety of dragon to identify a baseline 'dragon' signature. And Mathilde hasn't gotten close enough to this dragon to make a single-purpose crystal just for them, and the option for it hasn't been given because if it's being fired manually, counterspelling the first firing and then dodging any subsequent ones would be utterly trivial for an Emperor Dragon.

The tower is very limited if fired without a Grey Wizard at the helm. This is not a design flaw, this is the only way Dwarves would accept it being perched atop their Karak.

@BoneyM has this "iron cog-dragon" been invented yet? Also how's Dromgar, Belegar's brother, doing?

No, and still growing up.
 
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