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tbh I feel like "bribe the cosmically powerful entity not to lay waste to my home, which it absolutely could if it wanted to" is a pretty good use of money
I think you're overselling the Dragon here. It's powerful, but it's been clearly suggested that we're capable of killing it. The only Question being "at what cost". It's hardly negotiating from a level of literally divine strength. Killing it will literally be down to a dice roll.
 
I feel like the best thing for Matilde to do is just broker a ceasefire with the dragon until the people whose jobs it is to hash out agreements with foreign entities show up.
The problem with diplomancing the dragon is if it doesn't feel like playing ball, it is going to eat you.

And then probably every umgi within a five mile radius, going by its one onscreen performance.

If we decide to get up in its face and talk to it, we can't later decide to alpha strike it while it's snoozing. We'll already be at war, and we decided to start the war while sitting on a suspiciously ticking nuclear bomb.
 
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I would be so glad if the dragon turns out to be a huge nerd.
My best case scenario dare-not-to-hope is having the Dragon combine it's horde with our treasury and literally just Guard it for us. Considering the amount of money we're projected to make in the Silk Trade, it'd be a fool to refuse!
 
Every time someone in the Grey College starts trying to make Ulgu do time manipulation, their future self comes back to warn them not to.

It's actually a fairly simple illusion that the College itself is enchanted with, but it works better than just banning it. The College is full of rooms that can be replaced if someone blows them up, but there's only one space-time continuum and the Grey College doesn't want to be responsible for replacing it.

I hereby request more Belegar quest. Including the reaction to our backstory.

"I'm getting really nervous about all these ??? rolls, guys. What sort of pirates are there out here? Is this a Dark Elf outpost?"

Hi, @BoneyM can I ask a theoretical?

Some of the Dwarfs know about Mathy's thing with Ranald (Belegar, Krigg, Gunner.) and after a while some of the more observant dwarfs notice these weird, half secret half 'nudge nudge wink wink' shrines she is funding and ask some drunk humans about it.

what might happen if they realised, rightly or wrongly, that there might be a connection between the weird wizard who worships a god of luck and the absurd good fortune of the dwarfs of K8P.

that maybe they did get divine patronage, just not from the ancestor god they expected. (or wanted)

how would they take that? if they did come to that conclusion. (Rightly or wrongly)

the regular dwarfs?

Krigg?

Clan Angrund?

how would Belegar take it, with him already having a crisis with the teaching of the ancestors?

I'm not expecting this to happen, but you know, IF.

Humans being helped by human gods is human business. Similar to how Dwarves would take it really badly if an Elector Count started getting nosy about local Imperial Dwarves and their worship of the Ancestor-Gods.

For Ranald specifically, when Mathilde told Belegar about him there was a roll for how he'd interpret it, Ranger God vs God of Thieves, Liars, and Anarchists. Ranald certainly has aspects that Dwarves would disapprove of. But Mathilde's reputation lets her put His best foot forward.

All of them forever. The Phoenix Crown was declared as the duly exacted payment for the few thousand grudges leading up to and including the War of Vengeance/Beard. The only real ways to make them give it up would be to convince them that the War was in error (so make it so Ulthuan is no longer responsible for all those grudges), give them something of equal value to show the Elves have learned and are choosing to give payment to settle the Grudge, or by military force. None are very likely.

This is absolutely the case for getting the Crown to return to the Elves, but if Mathilde wanted to get her hands on it for non-Elf uses, there might be room for negotiation.

@BoneyM How does there being a tunnel from Und-Unzgar jive with only needing to hold the Gates and the path to Karak Drazth?

The tunnel to Und-Uzgar is to project force onto Death Pass and act as a possible sally point. It's narrow, surrounded almost entirely by solid stone, and offers zero cover. It could trivially be blocked if necessary, but it probably won't be because anyone foolish enough to enter via it will very quickly clog it with their corpses.

@BoneyM Would it be possible to dispatch rangers to locations other than Yar, Rhyn, and Zilfin?

It's possible, but considering there's three parts of the Karak with remaining uncordoned enemies, I'm not seeing why.

Isn't the Dragon's horde way high up in the mountain? Is he actually in a Dwarven Hall or a natural cave formation.

An exhausted mine.

Though, on that note, @BoneyM When Belegar wanted stuff to handle Trolls, he asked Dreng to get handguns, of which we got 1,400+ from Karak Hirn thanks to Ulthar. Were they issued to the Izor Immigrants or Clan Huzkul? Since they were acquired for the task, they seem like what we'd want to send to clear out the rest of Karag Rhyn if they're available.

Huzkul. About one in ten are armed with handguns, but they're not skilled enough with them to be considered proper Thunderers.

@BoneyM From what I understand is that if mathilde scouts that the others would fortify the entrances behind her?

If the vote is to fortify, they'll fortify. If it's not, they won't.


(page 3821 and onwards will have to be caught up with in a bit)
 
My best case scenario dare-not-to-hope is having the Dragon combine it's horde with our treasury and literally just Guard it for us. Considering the amount of money we're projected to make in the Silk Trade, it'd be a fool to refuse!
But then we can't use that treasury because it would be a dragons hoard. Which kind of defeats the point of a treasury.
 
And tell me, what does it pay in return? "Not killing us" is, as far as I am concerned, not an acceptable price for what has been offered up to it here.
To expand on my earlier post nothing is an acceptable price for "not killing us." That should just be expected out of a reasonable thinking being.
tbh I feel like "bribe the cosmically powerful entity not to lay waste to my home, which it absolutely could if it wanted to" is a pretty good use of money
But why should we have to? Like legitimately, real talk here. Say you move into a new house, and find out that your next door neighbor is, I don't know, an ex-Navy Seal or something. And, for whatever reason, this navy seal is incredibly anti-social, and also extremely rich, and hey, you live in a bad neighborhood. So you decide to go up to his door, ring the bell, and when he comes to answer, offer to watch his house while he sleeps at night so that he doesn't murder you dead. What do you think would happen? Personally, I imagine the guy would just look at you like you're a fucking maniac and slam the door.
Now, I'll admit, this isn't a perfect translation. It is, however, a not entirely unreasonable analogue. You're basically saying "let's go randomly offer to protect the dragon's horde when we have no obligation, and no gain from dedicating our forces to that." Even worse, you're assuming this is the default success state. If, and this is a big if, the dragon is the sort of being who would try to extort protection out of us for this deal, it's not trustworthy to begin with, and if it's not, then why should we start with offering more than what is necessary?
 
But then we can't use that treasury because it would be a dragons hoard. Which kind of defeats the point of a treasury.
Assume "we can use the gold we put in here" kind of clause. Like I said; best case dare-not-to-hope scenario.
To expand on my earlier post nothing is an acceptable price for "not killing us." That should just be expected out of a reasonable thinking being.
Sadly that's not a reliable standard in Warhammer. Either of them.
 
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Fuck-you-I'm-a-dragon-quester-says-what
To expand on my earlier post nothing is an acceptable price for "not killing us." That should just be expected out of a reasonable thinking being.

But why should we have to? Like legitimately, real talk here. Say you move into a new house, and find out that your next door neighbor is, I don't know, an ex-Navy Seal or something. And, for whatever reason, this navy seal is incredibly anti-social, and also extremely rich, and hey, you live in a bad neighborhood. So you decide to go up to his door, ring the bell, and when he comes to answer, offer to watch his house while he sleeps at night so that he doesn't murder you dead. What do you think would happen? Personally, I imagine the guy would just look at you like you're a fucking maniac and slam the door.
Now, I'll admit, this isn't a perfect translation. It is, however, a not entirely unreasonable analogue. You're basically saying "let's go randomly offer to protect the dragon's horde when we have no obligation, and no gain from dedicating our forces to that." Even worse, you're assuming this is the default success state. If, and this is a big if, the dragon is the sort of being who would try to extort protection out of us for this deal, it's not trustworthy to begin with, and if it's not, then why should we start with offering more than what is necessary?
Slightly more accurately, it's like if you return to your ancestral home after decades away and find an ex-Navy Seal literally in your back yard, camped out with a lot of your family's valuables in a treehouse he built using lumber he tore out of your fence.

It's a weird situation no matter what you say to that Navy Seal.
 
The problem here, is like any other dwarf's stuff. There is a very large difference between paying and protecting something so that it doesn't kill you, and paying and protecting somebody because they're part of your race, your kingdom, and will provide mutual protection. The whole thing with dwarves is fair trade. If it wants gold for artifacts, that's cool. If it wants to leave us alone so we leave it alone, that's cool too. But if it wants protection, it needs to give us protection as well. We have no obligation to protect it, no reason to pay it outside of buying artifacts from it. Tit for tat, and nothing more.
It is less "protection" and more "I know we have all these man/dwarf/halflings running around, I promise they wont steal your stuff.
 
(page 3821 and onwards will have to be caught up with in a bit)
You're. Uh. You're not missing much. Maybe you should just skip those pages.
Your user description is "F#$k you I'm a dragon". @Kaizuki is joking about how clearly you're biased on the subject.
But why should we have to? Like legitimately, real talk here. Say you move into a new house, and find out that your next door neighbor is, I don't know, an ex-Navy Seal or something. And, for whatever reason, this navy seal is incredibly anti-social, and also extremely rich, and hey, you live in a bad neighborhood. So you decide to go up to his door, ring the bell, and when he comes to answer, offer to watch his house while he sleeps at night so that he doesn't murder you dead. What do you think would happen? Personally, I imagine the guy would just look at you like you're a fucking maniac and slam the door.
Now, I'll admit, this isn't a perfect translation. It is, however, a not entirely unreasonable analogue. You're basically saying "let's go randomly offer to protect the dragon's horde when we have no obligation, and no gain from dedicating our forces to that." Even worse, you're assuming this is the default success state. If, and this is a big if, the dragon is the sort of being who would try to extort protection out of us for this deal, it's not trustworthy to begin with, and if it's not, then why should we start with offering more than what is necessary?
Because it's not just our neighbor. Belegar considers himself king of Karag Zilfin. We want the dragon to tolerate a state of affairs where the dwarves declare themselves the owners of the mountain it's been living in for however long.

It would be one thing if this dragon were nesting in, like, Karak Drazh (instead of the greenskins we have there now). But this dragon is living in a place that Belegar has sworn himself to reconquering. Bribing it to go "yeah sure, you can be 'king' of this mountain and I won't cause any trouble" is very reasonable, in my view.
 
I think "we guard their sleep and property in peacetime, they fight for us in major battles" is a pretty good base for a deal with a dragon.
 
It is less "protection" and more "I know we have all these man/dwarf/halflings running around, I promise they wont steal your stuff.
I'd be willing to accept a "if they steal from you we extradite them to you when caught."

Look, if someone's going to knowingly and willingly steal from a Dragon's horde we'd only be expediting their untimely demise. Because it's bound to happen sooner or later.

Or maybe a "Stealing from the Dragon will be punished the same as stealing from the King of Karak Eight Peaks" if we can't agree to turn over our citizens.
 
Humans being helped by human gods is human business. Similar to how Dwarves would take it really badly if an Elector Count started getting nosy about local Imperial Dwarves and their worship of the Ancestor-Gods.

For Ranald specifically, when Mathilde told Belegar about him there was a roll for how he'd interpret it, Ranger God vs God of Thieves, Liars, and Anarchists. Ranald certainly has aspects that Dwarves would disapprove of. But Mathilde's reputation lets her put His best foot forward.
That was not the question, I was asking what they would think if they thought a Human God was activity helping Dwarf businesses. Because with the Mork stuff and what they understand about being a god of luck and all the lucky stuff happening... he really might be battling for their team at k8p.
 
Most basic immediate thing we need out of the dragon is for it to not regard the firing of the doom tower as a hostile act. Warning it and making sure it is understood that only the orcs are intended victims so it doesn't counter spell or attack is goal #1 of taking to the dragon.
 
Honestly, if we've got enough time to actually negotiate to buy the dragon off it wasn't interested in going after us in the first place. Either it starts rip-and-tearing through our lines upon seeing us, it ignores us, or it approaches us in a manner that is not inherently opposed to diplomacy—which is highly unlikely to be demanding a bribe to keep ignoring us. At worst I'd expect a blatant threat not to mess with them/their stuff or it will treat us like it just did the Skaven, backed by the fact that it solo'd a peak and whatever it does to the current fight. Given that at this point in time we (or at least Belegar) has no interest in spending Dwarven lives for room he doesn't need and that wouldn't even really improve the safety of Eight Peaks, we just say sure to said demand and cross our fingers hoping it goes back to sleep.

On the longer-term diplomatic front, everything really depends on how the dragon feels and if it has any capital G Grudges against it. Given it's enthusiastic attacks against the enemies of dwarves and the fact the it inadvertently was a huge help in helping retake Eight Peaks, I imagine that some form of compensation for the fact would be acceptable.

If all else fails, we should dangle the gold-plated gold Wizard in front of it. It was his idea for the raid approach that spiraled into the dragon getting woken up so it's only fair that he should pay for it...
 
Slightly more accurately, it's like if you return to your ancestral home after decades away and find an ex-Navy Seal literally in your back yard, camped out with a lot of your family's valuables in a treehouse he built using lumber from your fence.

It's a weird situation no matter what you say to that Navy Seal.
Okay, that's a better description. They would still look at you like a maniac for assuming you they're going to kill you if you don't watch their stuff.
It is less "protection" and more "I know we have all these man/dwarf/halflings running around, I promise they wont steal your stuff.
See, that's nice and all, but that should be assumed. Belegar keeping control of his own people is very different from what the proposed contract was, which would have included anybody else that decided they want to steal from a dragon's hoard as well.
Because it's not just our neighbor. Belegar considers himself king of Karag Zilfin. We want the dragon to tolerate a state of affairs where the dwarves declare themselves the owners of the mountain it's been living in for however long.

It would be one thing if this dragon were nesting in, like, Karak Drazh (instead of the greenskins we have there now). But this dragon is living in a place that Belegar has sworn himself to reconquering. Bribing it to go "yeah sure, you can be 'king' of this mountain and I won't cause any trouble" is very reasonable, in my view.
Except, again, this. is. unnecessary. Convincing it not to cause trouble has nothing to do with the payment or protection. The dragon wants to live on top of Zilfin, it can live on top of Zilfin, as long as it stays above the territory the dwarves actually care about. It's already doing that, so anything else is just overkill. Hell, it didn't even care about the Skaven until they shoved poisonous gases in its face. Why the fuck would it expect us to swear to be its hoard guardians? If the dragon decides it doesn't want to let dwarves anywhere near it, then we would be at war regardless, and none of this matters.
 
The Imperial Dragon lives with this arrangement, somehow. As long as it keeps growing, or it only shrinks when everybody's fighting for their lives including the Dragon, it might work out.
I don't think it does. I think immense amounts of money go to that dragon in order to keep it happy but I don't think the dragon let's anyone take any amount of it away.

I would be happy to be wrong but from the what I remember when the dragon was introduced in quest it made it sound as if that gold was lost to the dragon.
 
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