Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
If we start the project the inherent value of more contributors drops. The proposed way to check for multiple goddesses would be to go for multiple new contributors in a single turn. After we start the project that becomes less attractive when weighed against actions that actually advance the project. Opportunity Cost shifts once we take that baseline start up action.
Unless you're actually arguing that we should never try and integrate another contributor ever again, then whilst the extra AP cost is unfortunate we are going to have to suck it up, and it does not make new contributors less valuable. In fact, it outright encourages recruiting multiple in one go, to minimise re-frameworking.
 
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Unless you're actually arguing that we should never try and integrate another contributor ever again, then whilst the extra AP cost does not make new contributors less valuable. In fact, it outright encourages recruiting multiple in one go, to minimise re-frameworking.

I am arguing that we should never take another turn for mass integration when we already have the project going because it would be politically problematic to put all our present contributors mostly on hold while we run out and get large numbers of new people. Also I question the notion that re- frameworking for several new traditions would be done in the same time as just for one, they are after all as different from each other as each of them are from the present line up. If anything re- frameworking for multiple new contributors at the same time might compound issues. By contrast a mass search is the ideal way to maximize the Father's low odds of firing at all.
 
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WHF humans are allergic to fun sometimes, justifying it with stuff like "Slaanesh will prey on you for that" or whatever.
Not WHF humans, just Sigmarites. Sigmarites specifically are the ones opposed to sex, drugs, partying, and the like and attribute it all to Slaanesh. The followers of other gods are significantly more chill about it and in some cases even supportive of it.
 
Awakening
Awakening:

Gretel Maurer knew something was wrong, and she couldn't pinpoint what it was.

It had barely been a year since she had officially joined the efforts of Braganza's Besiegers in building a Border Princedom that could control the Howling River and thereby grant Barak Varr dominance over Mad Dog Pass. Gretel had grown used to the company of the Tilean mercenaries, so it wasn't much of a fuss to deal with the paperwork and growing pains that came with integrating with a new group. And the Besiegers were clearly not the only ones who had decided to join this ambitious project.

The first group that had joined them, as if they had been waiting for this moment, were the Winter Wolves of Ulrikadrin. Some of them rode Winter Wolves, some of them did not, but they were all led by Ruprecht Wulfhart Jr. Gretel could only marvel at the creativity of his ingenious father.

The second group surprisingly came from her new home, Karak Eight Peaks. A few hundred Undumgi joined the Border Prince Mercenaries that fought for Karak Eight Peaks in this new venture, apparently not having been satisfied with one life changing adventure. Considering the majority of the Undumgi who had joined were relatively young, she could see why.

The third and least surprising was the mishmash of trusted mercenaries from Barak Varr who were expected to provide the level of confidentiality that this project requires while also providing the muscle needed for it to succeed, and that was not an inconsiderable amount of muscle. Braganza's Besiegers got along quite well with their fellows in the Marksmen of Miragliano, sharing a hometown and enemy forging bonds quicker than a Nuln forge. While Lumpin Croop's Fighting Cocks were not familiar faces per se, she got along well enough with the Halflings to appreciate their bawdy humor and crack a few jokes with them, discussing their distant relatives in Karak Eight Peaks (of which she had only a vague recollection of. How many relatives did they have?).

It was all well and good, and the year that Gretel spent was not quite as exciting as she had expected, but she supposed establishing supply lines, scouting the outlying regions and the tedious work of construction had to be done at some point, and the earlier the better. What unnerved Gretel however, was that something did not feel quite right.

She wasn't sure what it was. She had been working with the Besiegers for a little while now, and had come across Beastmen, Greenskin, Skaven and even the odd Chaos Cultist who thought the Border Princes was a good place to hide out. She hadn't seen all that many Necromancers or Undead, as much as she desired to take a look at some Nehekharan tombs, they weren't really all that visible in the Border Princes.

In Nehekhara, the Tomb Kings built their Necropolises as far as the eye could see with the intent of showing that they were larger than life, which they took quite literally. The Border Prince Tomb Kings did not have the luxury of abundant materials from which to build these Necropolises, and beyond that they faced a far greater Greenskin infestation that led their Tombs to be under far greater danger. That meant that their design philosophy tended towards grand but concealable, perhaps even built downwards rather than upwards.

Perhaps that was what was bothering her? The presence of a nearby Tomb? She had asked herself that question several times as she wandered the Besiegers' camp at night over the year, looking into the distance to view the World's Edge Mountains from afar. Squinting her eyes, Gretel tried to tap into her teacher's lessons to achieve the mindset necessary to cast Deathsight. Gretel was far more adept at taking souls than seeing them, so she had to concentrate for even this simple spell.

Sure enough, the effects of the spell were as morbid as they ever were. Gretel could see the traces of death and torn shreds of spirits that had been devoured by all the myriad creatures of the world crisscrossing the lands as they always did. The Border Princes was not the nicest place to die in the Old World, what with the lack of Morrite priests to give the dead their proper rest.

Gretel was sure she could see something though. If only she could pinpoint exactly where that "thing" was…

"Hola Chica."

Gretel dismissed her spell to look at the voice calling for her, and was greeted with Lucas' infuriating smirk. How she wished he would shave that mustache.

"What brings you here, Lucas. Don't you have a lady to entertain." Gretel was a bit irritated that she was interrupted in the middle of a revelation, but she couldn't entirely keep the slight contrition from her tone.

"I was, but Isabella kept asking for you. You got her pretty worried y'know? Going off in the middle of the night to gaze out into the wilderness."

"Were you that bad? I didn't realise I was signing on to bail you out of your failing relationship." Gretel raised her eyebrow in a questioning glance:

Lucas let out a chuckle. "Oh you know how demanding she gets. My back's still sore from last night, so I'm not up for much. Plus, I think it's better for you to not think so much. Not much good comes from that, eh?"

Gretel let out a put upon sigh, but she couldn't help the smile that came across her face. Technically, Gretel was supposed to be under an oath of celibacy. In actuality, she was hundreds of miles away from Altdorf and hundreds of leagues away from any other Wizard, much less an Amethyst. As a Wizard of the Wind of Death, Gretel knew full well that the End could come at any moment. Her response to that was not one that would generally be accepted by the College, so she left.

If the End could come at any time, then why not enjoy life to the fullest? As she followed Lucas to the tent she shared with him and Isabella. She could think about whatever bothered her tomorrow. Certainly, it doesn't seem to have moved all that much in the past year, so she supposed one day more of it being undiscovered wouldn't hurt.

—------

There was indeed something wrong in the Border Princes surrounding the Howling River. The increased activity and the hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of souls that moved through the territory was kicking the nest of a particularly dangerous hornet. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to call him a Scarab. A Black Scarab.

Karitamen had awoken, and he could feel the souls of tens of thousands encroaching upon his territory. That could not stand for long, but for now it was an opportunity.

Of those myriad souls available to him, he was sure he could find a fitting servant to release him from his prison.

AN: Got some inspiration to write something, and I finally followed through with one of my Gretel concepts. My mind was wandering over the kinds of stuff she would be involved in at the moment, so I wrote this. Karitamen's a fun character, and so is Gretel, even if we don't get much of her. I tried to expand a little bit on that without diving straight into a retelling of her backstory or anything. Hope you enjoy.
 
I am arguing that we should never take another turn for mass integration when we already have the project going because it would be politically problematic to put all our present contributors mostly on hold while we run out and get large numbers of new people. Also I question the notion that re- frameworking for several new traditions would be done in the same time as just for one, they are after all as different from each other as each of them are from the present line up. If anything re- frameworking for multiple new contributors at the same time might compound issues. By contrast a mass search is the ideal way to maximize the Father's low odds of firing at all.
I don't see why we would have to put existing work on hold, and I see literally no reason why a re-framing would take multiple AP for multiple groups when the initial framing from scratch takes 1 AP regardless of how many contributors we have.

I think you are once again dramatically undervaluing the effect that the Father will have on a group if we find a Daughter. Literally the entire quest is actions which might fail depending on a dice roll, so refusing to engage with a potential huge payout because any given possibility might be a dud seems like madness to me, and especially when there is no cost for failure beyond not getting a +20 on one action.

I am also disappointed we chose to never investigate the Divine directly, but refusing to engage with the branch we did pick is not the way to go.
 
I think that we shuold do a final recruitment and add the Sexy forest and her Ward to the project. It recruited us, there is no need to be unpolite and don't offer her a chance to contribute.
 
So, Keeping in mind the plans talked about.

[ ] Plan: Jyn Draft.1

-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann)

-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Ward of the Frost)

-[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: Have Lord Magister Krammovitch introduce you to the Hedgefolk of The Forest of Shadows to get your foot in the door.

-[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: use the pretext of your recent interest in Hekarti to contact and get the feel of House Tindomiel



These are the things I want to do this turn. I'm willing to be convinced on anything else.
 
I don't see why we would have to put existing work on hold, and I see literally no reason why a re-framing would take multiple AP for multiple groups when the initial framing from scratch takes 1 AP regardless of how many contributors we have.

I think you are once again dramatically undervaluing the effect that the Father will have on a group if we find a Daughter. Literally the entire quest is actions which might fail depending on a dice roll, so refusing to engage with a potential huge payout because any given possibility might be a dud seems like madness to me, and especially when there is no cost for failure beyond not getting a +20 on one action.

I am also disappointed we chose to never investigate the Divine directly, but refusing to engage with the branch we did pick is not the way to go.

We would have to put our exciting work mostly on hold because there are only so many actions in a turn, which is to say 5.
  1. Web-Mat takes up 2 actions to get the three we need to give everyone the time they require. I do not think you will find much muck trying to get a play through that ignores two of them which is what you would be doing to shake even 1 AP loose from that
  2. Mass recruitment to me means at least 3 actions so that is everything no time for the advancement of the project at all on a mass recruitment turn. You could try to justify two as 'mass' but that seems rather dubious
  3. All the above assumes this is a turn where we have no other commitments besides the project and Web-Mat which is itself not really that common
I already said why I think re-framing might take more for a mass of traditions than for one, because of mutual incompatibility of framework between all parties, the more you add at once the harder it is to untangle

You are taking it as a given that the Daughters will have useful project information, quite apart from the risk of never finding then I do not think that is a given. Ranald told us about them as an act of (symbolically appropriate) friendship, not with any promised utility.
 
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@Boney a question considering Eike: will you notify us when she is ready for training automatically or do we need to vote for it? And in case of the former, will you warn us on the turn she is ready or some time prior?
 
We would have to put our exciting work mostly on hold because there are only so many actions in a turn, which is to say 5.
  1. Web-Mat takes up 2 actions to get the three we need to give everyone the time they require. I do not think you will find much muck trying to get a play through that ignores two of them which is what you would be doing to shake even 1 AP loose from that
  2. Mass recruitment to me means at least 3 actions so that is everything no time for the advancement of the project at all on a mass recruitment turn. You could try to justify two as 'mass' but that seems rather dubious
  3. All the above assumes this is a turn where we have no other commitments besides the project and Web-Mat which is itself not really that common
I already said why I think re-framing might take more for a mass of traditions than for one, because of mutual incompatibility of framework between all parties, the more you add at once the harder it is to untangle

You are taking it as a given that the Daughters will have useful project information, quite apart from the risk of never finding then I do not think that is a given. Ranald told us about them as an act of (symbolically appropriate) friendship, not with any promised utility.
We get a sixth action every 3 turns, and can sometimes make recruitment a WEB-MAT action, so it's perfectly viable to mass-recruit.

The incompatibilities between already-added frameworks have by definition already been dealt with or they wouldn't be already-added. I see no indication that Boney will turn around and bunp the AP cost up. This seems to be an invented problem.

I am taking it as a given that groups we approach for Waystone integration will be relevant to the Project, yes. We would not be approaching them otherwise.

If we somehow get through all the relevant candidates without finding any daughters (unlikely) then oh well, bad luck, the same as rolling low on literally any other action we take. It's not a big deal.
 
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@Boney a question considering Eike: will you notify us when she is ready for training automatically or do we need to vote for it? And in case of the former, will you warn us on the turn she is ready or some time prior?
I think we should just take the Apprentice class in advance, rather than wait for Boney to give us a heads up. We're half way through the 3 years we estimated for Eike's basic education.
And considering she has to compete with people that start out illiterate, she's got a pretty decent headstart.
 
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Not sure Night Prowler would be all that helpful to investigating Alric. It'll only proc in public areas.

I liked the idea passed around a bit ago of putting the Coin on Protector to get as much out of solving Gryphon Wood as possible (and possibly even the Alric action)
 
It's actually so funny to me how vain Mathilde quietly is. As vices go, she has the most benign version of one of the least damaging ones, so it's not a huge criticism, but as she reaches the end of her life and a chronicler here or there tries (despite so much about her) to retrace her steps a bit and figure out what she did for the world, they're gonna notice a whole lot of things in several empires seem to have names that can be abbreviated to 'MATHILDE' or similar. For a super spy she sticks her name anywhere she can get away with, and if you were brought into a centuries-old research pact between the major races of the continent, to collaborate on cutting-edge magic, it'd be pretty weird to find out that the kind of strange name is entirely because it signs the sobriquet of an eccentric grey wizard that made it, and much less than it appears to do with what the organisation is actually FOR. And, now that you mention it, WHY is the magic school that you grew up in known as a 'Webberian School'? And why are important things known as 'serious matters'? This wizard is EVERYWHERE!
 
We get a sixth action every 3 turns, and can sometimes make recruitment a WEB-MAT action, so it's perfectly viable to mass-recruit.

The incompatibilities between already-added frameworks have by definition already been dealt with or they wouldn't be already-added. I see no indication that Boney will turn around and bunp the AP cost up. This seems to be an invented problem.

I am taking it as a given that groups we approach for Waystone integration will be relevant to the Project, yes. We would not be approaching them otherwise.

A fair enough on using overwork, though I would not really count on Web-Mat for recruitment now what we are done with the Colleges, none of the people on it have links with other organizations

To make this clear I mean the incompatibilities between both whatever we have made, so elf+dwarf+imperial wizard and say Hedgewise and Ice Magic and between Hedgewise and Ice magic, every new thing conflicts with all the other new things added at the same time not just with the existing framework

Two issues with that:
  1. Firstly it is not a given that just because we go looking for Waystone knowledge somewhere they actually have it
  2. Secondly there is no guarantee that the Daughters can be found among even the people with potential Waystone knoelge
I think you may be underestimating how incredibly esoteric what we are looking for it. The Daughters' followers may not know anything about the subject.
 
I think we should just take the Apprentice class in advance, rather than wait for Boney to give us a heads up. We're half way through the 3 years we estimated for Eike's basic education.
And considering she has to compete with people that start out illiterate, she's got a pretty decent headstart.
I agree. But knowing whether or not we need to constantly check is useful regardless.
Mathilde * smug purring*
 
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[ ] Plan: Jyn Draft.2
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann)
-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Ward of the Frost)
-[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: Have Lord Magister Krammovitch introduce you to the Hedgefolk of The Forest of Shadows to get your foot in the door.
-[ ] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: use the pretext of your recent interest in Hekarti to contact and get the feel of House Tindomiel
-[ ] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
-[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[ ] Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)

Added some of the free actions to the draft.

1: get a use out of the Bitching Suken Palace (I want that place back in the narrative.)
2: say hi to the Book nerds, plus, Pretex for eyeing them up for Recruitment if they have Waystone Secrets
3: Fresh paper is Fresh paper.
 
I'm pretty sure what the update is saying here is that we now have enough disparate insights that making a framework out of them will be robust enough that for most of the people we could plausibly recruit we wouldn't need to redo the lay the foundation action.

While there's undoubtedly still value to be found among other groups, this foundation should bring enough perspectives to the table that a groundwork established here and now should be able to incorporate all of those you're likely to be able to bring in in the future

So with that in mind I like

[ ] Starting up debt free
-[ ] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays.
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Alric with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Egrimm) (NEW)
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann) (NEW)
-[ ] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[ ] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
--[ ] The Gambler
-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
-[ ] Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
-[ ] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire. (NEW)
-[ ] Seek the publishing contacts to start acquiring large amounts of books from a nearby realm (specify which: Bretonnia)
-[ ] The Gambler: specify an action this will apply to.

As an action set, I think as long as we keep Egrimm from being publicly associated with checking into him he'd be happy to help put a spoke in Alric's wheels. While between his sneakiness, tirelessness, and ability to fight Johann is a great choice to investigate the woods. So that knocks out our obligations, While Max and Mathilde learn some basic ritual knowledge so as to have a bit more potential understanding in regards to the waystones.

The only bit I'm not too happy about is the Frost recruitment action, as they don't seem strictly necessary for what we're doing yet, and I was really hoping they might eventually show up on their own. But it would probably be a bad look to start things up without them, since they were the initial group to bring us in.
 
I like that one.

[ ] Starting up debt free
-[ ] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays.
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Alric with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Egrimm) (NEW)
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann) (NEW)
-[ ] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[ ] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
--[ ] The Gambler
-[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
-[ ] Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
-[ ] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire. (NEW)
-[ ] Seek the publishing contacts to start acquiring large amounts of books from a nearby realm (specify which: Bretonnia)
-[ ] The Gambler: specify an action this will apply to.
 
The only bit I'm not too happy about is the Frost recruitment action, as they don't seem strictly necessary for what we're doing yet, and I was really hoping they might eventually show up on their own. But it would probably be a bad look to start things up without them, since they were the initial group to bring us in.
Thats my main though about ward of the frost

do we need them? no, though Sexy elf seems to know a lot about the tree-stones.

politically? fuck yes, very rude not to.
 
A fair enough on using overwork, though I would not really count on Web-Mat for recruitment now what we are done with the Colleges, none of the people on it have links with other organizations

To make this clear I mean the incompatibilities between both whatever we have made, so elf+dwarf+imperial wizard and say Hedgewise and Ice Magic and between Hedgewise and Ice magic, every new thing conflicts with all the other new things added at the same time not just with the existing framework

Two issues with that:
  1. Firstly it is not a given that just because we go looking for Waystone knowledge somewhere they actually have it
  2. Secondly there is no guarantee that the Daughters can be found among even the people with potential Waystone knoelge
I think you may be underestimating how incredibly esoteric what we are looking for it. The Daughters' followers may not know anything about the subject.
Whilst technically increasing the number of interactions, I still see no reason why Boney would mandate that the AP cost be increased. AP already covers a variable amount of time anyway, so unless it literally takes longer than 6 months I don't think the cost will increase.

I suppose we might roll poorly enough to only integrate some and not others, but then it'll just be the first thing we do next turn - because our AP is ordered optimally to Mathilde's best judgement.

If a target for integration doesn't have any Waystones knowledge, that's not a Daughters-specific danger. Some of the groups we try and recruit will probably be duds. That's no reason not find out, and no reason not to use the Father when it's relevant.

And, in the case that we find a Daughter and they're a dud, we get a divinely-mandated in with that Cult, whereas without the Father we get nothing. Judgements on how likely a group is to have Waystones knowledge is a separate issue and should be considered separately to Daughter-hunting. We have at least 3 decent Waystone targets who might be Daughters, probably more.
 
Whilst technically increasing the number of interactions, I still see no reason why Boney would mandate that the AP cost be increased. AP already covers a variable amount of time anyway, so unless it literally takes longer than 6 months I don't think the cost will increase.

I suppose we might roll poorly enough to only integrate some and not others, but then it'll just be the first thing we do next turn - because our AP is ordered optimally to Mathilde's best judgement.

If a target for integration doesn't have any Waystones knowledge, that's not a Daughters-specific danger. Some of the groups we try and recruit will probably be duds. That's no reason not find out, and no reason not to use the Father when it's relevant.

And, in the case that we find a Daughter and they're a dud, we get a divinely-mandated in with that Cult, whereas without the Father we get nothing. Judgements on how likely a group is to have Waystones knowledge is a separate issue and should be considered separately to Daughter-hunting. We have at least 3 decent Waystone targets who might be Daughters, probably more.

1 AP is a month, that is how we came to the original calculations that eventually got split up in all sorts of ways, if you go way back to the start of the quest six months gives you 6 AP unmodified.

Could you name those three and the criteria you are using? Because from where I am standing even the option I was most enthusiastic about was iffy before the books came up empty.
 
[ ] Starting up debt free
Man, this hits everything I put as a high priority AP-wise. Frost is lower than daughter-searching, but it would be really weird and a pain to explain ourselves personally. I don't understand the relevance of Max learning rituals (I think we took the class already), but he is the bonus action so I don't have feelings on it. Think this is a fine compromise? Would be weird anyways if not putting Daughter-insight would cripple the foundations of the Waystone project even if they are relevant. They could be fun pocket aces when we hit a snag.

"So... what'd you do? I got real worried there when we had no leads at all for 2 years"
Please don't let this happen
"Oh, what anyone does when they're hoping. I talked to the Gods"
I wanna find out about Best bro's fucked up domestic life ;(
"So what? You prayed?"

":D"
 
Not WHF humans, just Sigmarites. Sigmarites specifically are the ones opposed to sex, drugs, partying, and the like and attribute it all to Slaanesh. The followers of other gods are significantly more chill about it and in some cases even supportive of it.
Well, it certainly creeps into their society, since Sigmar laid the foundation of the Empire, which is the focal point of the majority of the books. The Lady also follows the same prudishness, with "Preserve your modesty" being one of her scriptures for woman (and only woman) and Brothels reducing your Chivalry in Total War.

I've never really understood why the Sigmarite church is so puritanical. Sometimes I feel like GW wanted to force the christianity vibe into Sigmarism when it doesn't fit. Nothing about Sigmar says anything about being against pleasure, but the church acts like premarital sex is a gateway to Chaos worship or something. It doesn't make sense to me.
 
I don't understand the relevance of Max learning rituals (I think we took the class already),

Mathilde hasn't taken the class yet nah. I don't expect it to do a huge amount for her, but might provide a bit more familiarity and give her more ability to contribute when everyone is throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as they come up with the framework.
 
Well, it certainly creeps into their society, since Sigmar laid the foundation of the Empire, which is the focal point of the majority of the books. The Lady also follows the same prudishness, with "Preserve your modesty" being one of her scriptures for woman (and only woman) and Brothels reducing your Chivalry in Total War.

I've never really understood why the Sigmarite church is so puritanical. Sometimes I feel like GW wanted to force the christianity vibe into Sigmarism when it doesn't fit. Nothing about Sigmar says anything about being against pleasure, but the church acts like premarital sex is a gateway to Chaos worship or something. It doesn't make sense to me.

Well it is the religion of the establishment and the nobility (as opposed to Ulric worship which is more individualistic and commoner focused). Maybe is started with avoiding bastards and them picked up a life of its own from there.
 
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