Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
In a meta sense, what was the thread's reasoning for foisting Ranald onto the Watch? Asking because it predates my time here on the board and I'm too lazy to dig through all the various posts.

We were pissed at sigmar for not saving Abelhelm. IIRC.

Yeah Mathilde had literally just gotten the disdain for Sigmar trait right as we were going into the turn, so "will not allow faith in Sigmar to flourish in the institutions under her control - will do her best to encourage faith in worthier gods, or face a heavy malus while it goes undone." had to be addressed.

Bad Odds can't be tolerated. :V
 
Now I can't remember the exact wording that Boney uses in quest for gilding, but I'm not sure if he ever outright said that the gold never decayed or not. This is putting aside whether the gold never decaying has any sort of effect on spiritual longevity. Most Wizards are no longer beings of flesh and blood by the point they're at Melkoth and Alric's level, and yet they still seem to age.
Well, by what process can we infer a decaying of gold? It's a noble metal, meaning it's very resistant to physical decay via chemical reactions—the rare exceptions being formulations like aqua regia. There's a reason you can bury a piece of gold in a swamp and dig it up thousands of years later. That leaves magical decay, but the metaphysical properties of a substance usually reflect or touch on their physical properties some way. So unless there's some specific upkeep detailed in the ritual, I would lean towards it not decaying.

In a meta sense, what was the thread's reasoning for foisting Ranald onto the Watch? Asking because it predates my time here on the board and I'm too lazy to dig through all the various posts.
God, I'd almost managed to forget about this particular bit of early quest cringe. What the heck were people thinking back then?
I wasn't around back then, but it seems to me that it's only the natural consequence of failing two dice rolls. Plus, we had only just taken Disdain for Sigmar, and had this:
Stirland Watch faith - can be chosen INSTEAD of a selection from the above, penalty to any Watch actions Mathilde takes unless/until one is taken. Sigmarism must be driven out. (NEW)
If the roll had met the DCs, it would've been fine. If Mathilde had kept her composure, it would have been fine. And there was a natural reason to attempt it.
 
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Are we planning to oppose him? Because we are kind of off in the woods doing our own thing at the moment. The most contact we have with the Empire outside the colleges is the EIC and what takes up half an action per turn, call it two weeks every six months so that is one month per year. That does not seem to be a lot of time to be opposing Starke in.
I think it's more that Canon Starke pushes Sigmar when he's MP, we don't like Sigmar, so if DL Starke goes that road, we'll probably do something against it. But there's no concrete plans, because there's currently no point.

Algard is still MP, and so far we don't know about any plans to retire (and we'd be among the first to know, as LM). By the point he does, Starke might not become MP. And if he does, he might not be pushing Sigmar.

In canon, it's because he seems him as an important unifying factor for the Empire. In DL, he might decide there's better ways to increase cohesion. Marienburg and Sylvania are both situation that are very well suited to the attention of the Greys and would help to improve the unity of the empire. He might take a focus on trade as way to tie things together, based on the channels, and also the dwarfs going trade heavy. And the Nordland/Middenland/Elf conflift might change his perspective too (or if he learns that the Templars we sitting on some critical intelligence because of loyalty conflicts).

From what we've seen, he considers faith important. And he's kind of got a point there. But as far as I can tell, he's not so concerned about which faith. Sigmar of course works especially well to tie the empire together, because it's his empire, but it can divided by it as well.

In conclusion, there's a plausible chance Mathilde and Starke will have political disagreements, but it's only a chance and it's a fair bit away, so there's not point in concrete plans.

Now, the reason I orginally started this post before I drifted off on tangent (yes, all the above is arguably a tangent) is to say that Mathilde has spend a good amount of time recently playing college politics. So she's got a lot more connections these days. That's obviously of limited use direct use to internal struggles, but it gives her more weight. And if she where to decide to oppose Starke, she would obviously spend more time in the empire.
 
Mathilde, For Once, Tells the Truth
The answer is of course, ALL THE OPTIONS!

Omake: Mathilde, for once, tells the truth

"Well Reiner, I would be happy to...... You know what. No."

"No?" the Lord Magister asked, "Well, like I said it is your ri-"

"No, as in I am not happy, and if we're doing this you and I, it will not be done by oblique references or double-speak. The full, unvarnished, direct, truth. That is what you will get."

Reiner Starke blinked, then leaned back in his chair. "That would be an usual but admittedly refreshing change of pace, if only for the novelty of it. By all means, proceed."

"It was a difficult time, personally for me. "Mathilde closed her eyes in remembrance. "The first reason that gave me the idea was probably my personal grief. Abelhelm, who is was in l-lo--luv" Mathilde banged the table in frustration, but forced herself to continue "who I was in love with had just died a pointless death that Sigmar could have easily prevented. Brother Kasmir was right there, but Sigmar did not respond. That useless snivelly little bitch of a wannabe god failed his one good purpose and failed to heal a loyal servant of both him and the Empire."

Lord Magister Reiner Starke was staring intently, but this revelation was hardly enough to put his finely honed mind off-track and so he kept analysing and picking apart everything that was being said.
"So you were grieving then. Your love had just died but why would that - ah. A Sigmarite institution."

Mathilde nodded. "Indeed. Why allow a useless god to make a promising institution equally useless? It was both poorly-timed pragmatism and revenge of sorts. But understand, Abelhelm quickly gained my regard and admiration at the beginning of my employment, and after once spending most of the day in my underwear right next to him while we waited for necromantic assassins outside to be dealt with... well, the heart of a young maiden falls quickly and hard under such circumstances. "

"I wouldn't know."

"Ah, I am certain he could even see my ankles! It was so thrilling! And then Sigmar had the temerity to take him away. Such can not be abided. You could say I have held nothing but the highest disdain for Sigmar and his fools since then."

Reiner was nodding along, resentful that due to his position he couldn't retreat behind something being 'too much information'. He'd asked for this. Quite literally.
And yet despite wanting nothing more than to stop listening, his mind was racing ahead and thinking of what the Lady Magister was not saying, and wondering what the true reason must have been that this confession, entirely genuine it seemed, was the lesser evil.

"Of course, " Mathilde continued, "It helped I had a much better God to count on. My oldest friend. " She held forward a hand with fingers crossed and Lord Magister Reiner quietly filed this latest fact into his mind while Mathilde continued,
"Someone who's meddling have saved me from death and disfigurement more than a few times and brought me no amount of embarrassments as payment. The only male in my life I could truly count on, before King Belegar at least. The best person to catch thieves are thieves themselves of course, so really, promoting any other god would have been blasphemy. And while He and I play pranks on each other where possible, outright blasphemy is something I will never do. Not to an actual God worthy of the title."

"Interesting," Reiner commented, "that you would be so open about it but it does expl-"

"Of course, then there are the Skaven to consider" Mathilde interrupted. "Skaven are a problem beneath every major city and the Wurtbad Watch was incredibly underarmed to handle them."

"Hold on. I know, I KNOW," Reiner emphasized, "that you were not read in to the conspiracy until much later. "

Mathilde was nodding along. "Yes, exactly so. That is what my memories tell me as well, but I must insist on the Skaven angle as well. Not sure why, but for some strange reason it makes sense to me even though it makes no sense logically."

Reiner massaged his forehead
"So we have your grief over your dead lover who was the Elector Count and who you say Sigmar did not save, leading you to disdain him and institutions dedicated to him, the Watch being the largest and most visible you could affect at the time. Simultaneously, you had your own God - not a mainstream one but still an accepted Empire God - worship of whom you were looking to spread because you felt Him a better and more fitting alternative. And that this was simultaneously a planned move taken under the umbrella of the Conspiracy of Silence, since Sigmar's church doesn't and cannot officially recognize the danger as existing, so a religious bend that could allow for the recognition needed to be implemented, despite the fact that at the time you couldn't have known this."

"Precisely. Of course the reason this was so mishandled by yours truly is... well, kind of an embarrassing one" Mathilde confirmed.

"Oh NOW we get to something embarrassing?" Reiner chuckled in reply.

Mathilde turned her eyes skywards and took on a dramatic tone. "I was young an inexperienced. It was my first time but no one was there to be gentle with me. It got messy and complicated and was ultimately extremely unsatisfying."

Reiner was too busy choking on nothing to give a proper reply.

"Do you know what it does to a young maiden, fresh out of school, in her first job standing next to the love of her life? Assault a line of undead, battlecries on your lips, greatswords swinging, hacking a defensive line apart for your comrades to come rushing in.... But nobody came. We fought, back to back, but nobody came. No one, except more undead. And we hacked and we slashed and we killed and we decapitated and then he got wounded first."

There was something brittle and raw in Mathilde's voice.

"I stood astride on top of my dying liege and love, fighting an endless swarm of undead, and nobody came. Not until it was too late, far too late. I stood by his side as news came of a Magister who had blown themselves up instead of being there to heal Abelhelm. I watched a priest of Sigmar call to that useless bastard with all his faith and not receive a reply. I watched as mortal medicine failed. I heard the last words of my liege. You know what I did then?" Mathilde asked.

Intrigued, Reiner bid her to continue.

Words poured out of her mouth, desperate and chocked, "Everyone else were like headless chickens, useless and directionless. So I took command of an army, his army, and gave them purpose and a goal. I finished the fight. I gave out orders that lead to thousand of loyal troops dying, in the name of cleansing the blighted necromancers. I sentenced one to death by pyre and smiled as I watched that damn heretic scream his last!" Mathilde yelled.
"Me, a fresh Journeywoman, with barely a handful of spells to my name and no experience of proper warfare or being a judge and jury. All of that in a few days, and no authority figure in sight willing to shoulder the burdens on my behalf or even offer a hug to a scared child pretending to be a big, bad wizard of the Empire."

Mathiled took a deep breath, and collected herself. "Look at me, a Lady Magister and still not entirely over it." She mulled for a moment. "So yes, in the immediate aftermath, I was not exactly at my best."

Reiner tapped his fingers on the table a few times, deep in thought, "Indeed, quite.... understandable. Regrettable. That is, hmm, quite a tale. A rather multi-faceted tale at that, but I suppose situations under the purview of our College tend to be more complex than usual. And given the circumstances, the outcome could have been far less optimal."

There was a brief moment of silence.

"So, Mathilde. The complete and unvarnished truth you said. I am inclined to take you at your word on this particular occasion." Reiner shook his head. "If after all that, it was just a cover for some deeper secret, then I cannot make a realistic guess at it and would probably dread to hear it."

Mathilde gave it a moment of thought. There was that one tiny itsy bitsy teensy detail she hadn't mentioned. And, well, she'd promised the full truth, so....

"Well, " she said, upbeat, "Abelhelm did leave me with the genuine original edition of Liber Mortis that I've been carrying around until I read it and hid it in Karak Eight Peaks."

Lord Magister Reiner Starke was quiet for a brief second, before he sighed tiredly "You couldn't have at least made it believable?"

"I did promise the truth."

"Please just... get out. and work on your sense of humour."

Mathilde smiled and rose from her chair.

"Of course. Until later, Lord Magister."

Huh. Oh well, now the Grey College couldn't claim they hadn't known about Liber Mortis, if it came relevant in the future, so that was a load off.

Trying this 'Truth' thing was pretty nice.
 
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We know that Horstmann considers her a better leader than Alric, and he knows Alric and Mira far more than us, despite being biased. We also know that she never went on a Journey, upgrading from Journeywoman to Magister before she even left the Colleges because of her performance against the Tomb Kings. That is exceptional work.

Yes our sources are biased and we don't know exactly where she stands in comparison to Alric, but unless you just straight up don't trust Horstmann's opinion, I think she's probably a better choice. Considering most of the Light Order is currently supporting her, I don't see why we should believe otherwise.
We also know that Mira has had the official title before and then managed to lose it to Alric. The current conjecture is that Alric then goes out, slays some problems and impresses some bigwigs and that's how he gets back on top, but bigwig outsiders, whatever their influence, don't ultimately decide who rules the Light College. So there's a floor to how bad or unlikable he can possibly be. Because getting back the Patriarchy after losing it arguably requires a better reputation and stronger following (among whoever decides this stuff) than just getting it once. Though I guess that goes for both Alric and Mira.
it opens us up to more people actively befriending with the expectation of returns.
Sounds great for our current project.
 
I think it's more that Canon Starke pushes Sigmar when he's MP, we don't like Sigmar, so if DL Starke goes that road, we'll probably do something against it. But there's no concrete plans, because there's currently no point.

Algard is still MP, and so far we don't know about any plans to retire (and we'd be among the first to know, as LM). By the point he does, Starke might not become MP. And if he does, he might not be pushing Sigmar.

In canon, it's because he seems him as an important unifying factor for the Empire. In DL, he might decide there's better ways to increase cohesion. Marienburg and Sylvania are both situation that are very well suited to the attention of the Greys and would help to improve the unity of the empire. He might take a focus on trade as way to tie things together, based on the channels, and also the dwarfs going trade heavy. And the Nordland/Middenland/Elf conflift might change his perspective too (or if he learns that the Templars we sitting on some critical intelligence because of loyalty conflicts).

From what we've seen, he considers faith important. And he's kind of got a point there. But as far as I can tell, he's not so concerned about which faith. Sigmar of course works especially well to tie the empire together, because it's his empire, but it can divided by it as well.

In conclusion, there's a plausible chance Mathilde and Starke will have political disagreements, but it's only a chance and it's a fair bit away, so there's not point in concrete plans.

Now, the reason I orginally started this post before I drifted off on tangent (yes, all the above is arguably a tangent) is to say that Mathilde has spend a good amount of time recently playing college politics. So she's got a lot more connections these days. That's obviously of limited use direct use to internal struggles, but it gives her more weight. And if she where to decide to oppose Starke, she would obviously spend more time in the empire.

I mean Mathilde has a trait that basically says she does not like Sigamar and she is bound to make the Cult of Sigmar lose influence over any institution she has power over. But as long as Starke does not try to convert the EIC she does not have to see any of that. So what would trigger her, let's face it, purely emotional response? It's not like Starke is suddenly going to start arguing for the persecution of Ranald, he does know what college he is in and that is the only god Mathilde cares about... which is precisely what piety says 'I m loyal to Ranald to a indeterminate, but great amount', not 'and I hate Sigmar'.
 
Snap reaction after finishing the update: I'm strongly inclined to vote for Trauma here. It has the benefit of being honestly true while also obscuring the more embarrassing or politically awkward truths we could also share. Or religiously contraindicated; remember that one of the core tenets of Ranaldism is "don't just tell people you're a Ranaldite." I don't want to outright lie to Starke because, well, you ever hear the expression "don't try to bullshit a bullshitter"? The guy on the other side of the desk here is also a Grey LM, and one whose whole job involves catching other Grey Wizards in lies. No, we won't get sent to Azkaban or anything, but this isn't a guy who I want to get the impression of us that if we're put on the spot we'll try to bullshit him.

As for why I don't want to vote Grief, well, there's two reasons for that. One is that it would foreground that we blamed Sigmar for Abelhelm's death. Which is an awkward thing to broadcast to the most Sigmarite man in the Grey Order, and probably not awesome for our professional relationship even if it makes a reasonable excuse. It's also not great as an explanation to potentially offer to other people in, y'know, Sigmar's Empire.

The other reason is the one that Mathilde notes in the text; if this foregrounding of our complicated personal feelings for our liege was cross-referenced with the Underwear Incident, it could be remarkably embarrassing. For those who need a refresher, the Underwear Incident was that time when (for reasons outside our control that totally made sense at the time! or at least kinda) we spent several hours completely alone and unsupervised with our unmarried eligible bachelor Elector Count. In our underwear. Did anything happen? Nope. But we've seen how Mathilde reacts to anything related to physical intimacy, and if somebody tried to unexpectedly spring a gotcha on us in a social context that's one of the few things that might break her Grey Wizard composure. And if your reaction to being accused of impropriety is to turn bright red, well, that's not great for plausible denial. That's not necessarily a threat per se, but it could be manufactured into an inconvenient and mortifying scandal.
 
I don't want to outright lie to Starke because, well, you ever hear the expression "don't try to bullshit a bullshitter"? The guy on the other side of the desk here is also a Grey LM, and one whose whole job involves catching other Grey Wizards in lies. No, we won't get sent to Azkaban or anything, but this isn't a guy who I want to get the impression of us that if we're put on the spot we'll try to bullshit him.

The thing is, Mathilde was absolutely building the Watch to take on the skaven. If Starke goes looking, he will find a lot of evidence that we were building the watch to fight the skaven. Because OOC we were. The guy we put in charge of it thought that was what we were doing, we merged them with the rat catchers, and probably some other stuff I've forgotten about at the moment.

Did Mathilde realize she was doing it at the time? Nah, but she was, in retrospect, clearly aiming the watch squarely at the skaven.
 
I'm not much for genocide, personally.
I never said anything about genocide? Just some light reading on if it's possible to kill a god, and some plotting/fights with his church thing one of these days, we could even sell it as solidifying the power of the (definitely not a Ranaldian) new (eventually) emperor
 
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You said "wipe out Sigmarism".

I fail to see a way to do that in a non-genocidal manner given that probably a plurality of the Empire's population worships him.
wipe out sigmarism means destroying his church, his faith, his power. Without those things it'll fade away in a generation or two, being so unused to not having total government backing, especially if we promote competing faiths
 
You said "wipe out Sigmarism".

I fail to see a way to do that in a non-genocidal manner given that probably a plurality of the Empire's population worships him.
Generations long campaign of prosetylizing might work?
Probably won't, but there is a non zero change.
But in more practical terms it would mean either a genocide in either the "murder them all" or "destroy their culture and force them to follow yours" senses.
 
wipe out sigmarism means destroying his church, his faith, his power. Without those things it'll fade away in a generation or two, being so unused to not having total government backing, especially if we promote competing faiths
Because as we all know, religions are easy to wipe out. They quickly fade to nothing with a bit of persecution. History has shown this time and time again.
 
wipe out sigmarism means destroying his church, his faith, his power. Without those things it'll fade away in a generation or two, being so unused to not having total government backing, especially if we promote competing faiths
Destroying his church would mean a bloodbath, his faith would mean either a bloodbath of forced conversions (which would also involve a bloodbath).
So genocide either way.
 
[] Youth
The truth is, you were young and an idiot. In your naive mind's eye, you saw a chance for streamlining the legal process, turning both the legal and illegal actors in Sylvania into a single system under your control, one which could not be subverted by outside actors, and which limited its negative impact to tolerable levels. If crime could not be stopped, then it should at least not be used by enemies of the Empire. Given the sheer degree to which both such actors were utilized, by Skaven and Vampire alike, it's not exactly an idea you think is without merit. But the way you went about it was clunky and ill-thought out, and quite frankly causes you a fair bit of embarrassment looking back on it.

Thoughts?
 
I'm not suggesting we go into the countryside and kill every Sigmarite we see, just remove the official station, wealth, and backing that the Sigmarite faith has
 
destroying he church doesn't mean a bloodbath? At most the high priest would have to kick the bucket
I mean, I think assassinating the current Grand Theogonist (and the one after that, and the one after that...) would mean a civil war, even if you didn't decide it was necessary to kill the various other Priests of Sigmar in the Empire.
 
destroying he church doesn't mean a bloodbath? At most the high priest would have to kick the bucket
I'm not suggesting we go into the countryside and kill every Sigmarite we see, just remove the official station, wealth, and backing that the Sigmarite faith has
In the strongest possible terms I would like to advise that the subject of "how many people would need to die to eradicate a religion we don't like" be immediately dropped. This thread has gone so long since its last Rule Two infractions.

In service of changing the subject, I find myself persuaded by @Aranfan's points that the Skaven explanation has the benefit of being supported by the evidence of what we were doing with the Watch. Will probably approval vote for that and Trauma.
 
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I think I have a slightly modified and more concise version of my previous write-in draft:

[ ] You wanted to reform the watch into a more intrigue focused organization, but your steps had fierce opposition in the watch. You thought attempting to bring the worship of Ranald into the watch will give you a pretext to remove those most opposed to your changes from the organization. It wasn't a very good idea, but you went through with it because you worried Stirland was especially vulnerable in the wake of Abelhelm's death, so you rushed things.

I think of the available options Trauma is the best one, but its main drawback is that it doesn't explain why we attempted to bring in Ranald in particular to the watch. Yes, it was a bad idea, but how did we come up with that idea to begin with? This is a plausible excuse, and I also feel it's the most reasonable in story explanation for actions that out of story were obviously the results of metagaming.
 
destroying he church doesn't mean a bloodbath? At most the high priest would have to kick the bucket
The cult of Sigmar has quite a few high priests. They also have priests who are very good at hitting people who disagree with them in the face with hammers. And the Cult of Sigmar in particular has a tendency to attract large numbers of Flagellants. You know, those violently unreasonable fanatics who are determined to die atop a mountain of corpses that were previously their chosen god's (perceived) enemies?
 
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