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[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
I think we should go for Quinsberry over the Verenans this turn. I summed up my thoughts why here:
So I made this post a while back about how I think we could approach the cult of Esmeralda but if that doesn't excite you I think we should go for Quinsberry. See the cult of Quinsberry maintains a library which has "complete records of every halfling bloodline" now with the success of the Eightpeaks expedition and the foundation of KAU they have a problem and an opportunity. The problem is of course having to track the bloodlines of those halflings that moved here. The opportunity is being able to store copies of those records in a dwarfhold.

It should gives us a pretty good angle for our pitch: KAU helps them track and record the bloodlines of halflings living at Eightpeaks and the two libraries share copies of their records so the knowledge is safely stored away next time someone burns down the Moot. In exchange we get at their other books and maybe they send some priests over to help with the library.

The issue with the Verenans is I just don't think the library is impressive enough right now to convince the book hoarders to actually share.
 
A reminder that canon is pretty contradictory when it comes to Halflings due to different ideas over how seriously they should take them or if they should keep treating them as a joke. Boney's world is more consistent and less likely to have them be the Hobbit joke they are in canon, and part of that is having to put his fingers on the scale on the topic of Halflings and Magic:

They don't produce them often, but Halflings do have spellcasters.

I'm not saying that they'll likely have some sort of secret Waystone lore, but the Halflings are far more interesting than just a pie joke. I understand you were making a joke, but it felt pretty reductive to a group of people who have proven absolutely vital to Karak Eight Peaks.

I apologize if that came off as dismissive to halflings in general, but I stand by the statement that they are not relevant to our interests. Even if they do have spell-casters they are going to be rare and thus we are unlikely to ever meet one and even if we were by some miracle to meet one of them they will not likely have any lore we care about. All this started from the notion that they might be relevant to the Father and my point was if those are the daughters than there is no practical reason to look for them.
 
I apologize if that came off as dismissive to halflings in general, but I stand by the statement that they are not relevant to our interests. Even if they do have spell-casters they are going to be rare and thus we are unlikely to ever meet one and even if we were by some miracle to meet one of them they will not likely have any lore we care about. All this started from the notion that they might be relevant to the Father and my point was if those are the daughters than there is no practical reason to look for them.
Looking back I went a bit ham for no reason. I realised that the way that canon so often treats Halflings as a walking fat joke to be very demeaning as someone who gets fat shamed almost daily, so I might have taken it out on you for making a harmless joke. Sorry about that.

I don't get personally offended by the Ogres. Maybe it's because while they're big and fat, they're not treated as a joke by the lore. They're powerful, strong and terrifying when they need to be, and being fat is an unambigous good to them. Halflings... I don't like the way they're treated.
 
Looking back I went a bit ham for no reason. I realised that the way that canon so often treats Halflings as a walking fat joke to be very demeaning as someone who gets fat shamed almost daily, so I might have taken it out on you for making a harmless joke. Sorry about that.

I don't get personally offended by the Ogres. Maybe it's because while they're big and fat, they're not treated as a joke by the lore. They're powerful, strong and terrifying when they need to be, and being fat is an unambigous good to them. Halflings... I don't like the way they're treated.

No worries, everyone has buttons like that. I'm am sorry for upsetting you.
 
I mean if this is true, and personally I do not think it is, then it is basically a dead end anyway. We are not planning to bake the waystones into pies and eat them and they are rather large to pick out of someone's pockets.
It was a joke, sorry if it wasn't obvious. I just thought it was really funny that a theory I came up with as a joke was "confirmed".

@Boney, some questions about the mechanics of the turn:
-If we choose to investigate Gryphon's wood and recruit the Halethians, can we do the recruitment first to take advantage of any possible insights our potential new allies might have on the Forest of Shadows?
-If we turn the coin to the Father and also seek publishing contacts in Bretonnia, can Mathilde go out of her way to personally interact with worshippers of The Lady, to see if the coin procs?
-More generally, if we turn the coin to the Father can Mathilde do her best to interact with any and all worshippers of female Goddesses (eg. halflings in K8P when she passes through) on the off-chance that the coin's effect will be noticeable?
 
@Boney IIRC you mentioned after we sacrificed the crystal that we could still investigate the divine power as long as we aren't trying to capture and study it, would something like "See if a miracle wielding priest can control divine power made from AV" be a valid AV option?

Ok so putting together a preliminary plan I'm thinking:

[ ] MAX: Learning: Powerstone creation with Mathilde
[ ] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm: Ring of Sudden Dawn
[ ] WEB-MAT: Attempt to recruit someone to WEB-MAT: Hugo Bann
[ ] Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn: Frost
[ ] Experiment with integrating the Vitae into enchantment
[ ] Investigate Alric - The Night Prowler
[ ] Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries: Quinsberry
[ ] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.

Max is learning powerstones along with Mathilde so we can try powerstone creation on AV next turn. Egrimm is finally doing some windherding. Hugo Bann because you will pry this recruitment action from my cold dead hands. Investigating the ward of frost in preparation for an elf recruitment action next turn. Investigating vitae enchantments because I want to finally finish fully investigating it. Investigating Alric with The Night Prowler to pay off that debt. Quinsberry with the library for reason I noted earlier I think they will be the easiest knowledge god to get fully onboard and once we have them onboard I think we can use that as leverage to encourage other knowledge cults to commit too. Lastly sending the EIC to investigate Gryphons wood so that Mathilse will have some info to work with when she investigates personally next turn.
 
[ ] Plan Deathbybunnies
-[ ] MAX: Study an artefact: (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
-[ ] JOHANN: Attend the College classes on Ritual Magic.
-[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Alric with one or more members of WEB-MAT (EGRIMM)
-[ ] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[ ] Lay the foundations: work with the current members of WEB-MAT and the Waystone Project to build a single unified framework for understanding the Waystones.
-[ ] Investigate Gryphon Wood
-[ ] SERENITY: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm
-[ ] EIC: Investigate what trade goods the Eonir might be willing to import from the Empire.
-[ ] KAU: Seek the publishing contacts to start acquiring large amounts of books from a nearby realm (Bretonnia)


Max's Amenuensis trait seems ideal for transceibing and studying the Lustrian rubbings. And hey, maybe the Elves will appreciate it; or maybe they won't care because the explorer was Ulthuani.

I'm hopeful that Johann's prediliction for Gilding will extend to other Rituals, in part or in whole.

If anyone knows how Alric will act in a given situation, it's probably Egrimm. I was tempted to have him work with us on a Sevirroscope, but we need WEB-MAT to be involved in at least one of the investigation actions because.

That's because if we're starting the Project this turn, we need to also be personally examining a Waystone this turn. Laying the Foundations is going to be an action spent managing other people, not Mathilde dedicating time to looking herself in any great detail.

The Serenity slot goes to Johann's arm while it's fresh. The only other papers degrading in quality this turn are Windsoak observations, which we'll probably want to publish as a book anyway.

Using the EIC to try and gradually open up the isolationist Eonir seems like a good move, and we've nothing else pressing to do with them.

I've opted to open up publishing contracts with Bretonnia to usefully spend the action. I'm not sure our library is big enough to establish reciprocal relationships with any big names yet; if anyone knows of any worthwhile smaller libraries that might be interested in our niche subject matter, they might be a better pick.

I think we're probably best off picking the gambler this turn, but I'm not sure what to apply it to. Maybe Johann's Ritual Class, to increase the odds it works for him (and Mathilde)?
 
I've opted to open up publishing contracts with Bretonnia to usefully spend the action. I'm not sure our library is big enough to establish reciprocal relationships with any big names yet; if anyone knows of any worthwhile smaller libraries that might be interested in our niche subject matter, they might be a better pick.
Can I interest you in Quinsberry? I think we have an in there despite the relative size of our library compared to theirs:
So I made this post a while back about how I think we could approach the cult of Esmeralda but if that doesn't excite you I think we should go for Quinsberry. See the cult of Quinsberry maintains a library which has "complete records of every halfling bloodline" now with the success of the Eightpeaks expedition and the foundation of KAU they have a problem and an opportunity. The problem is of course having to track the bloodlines of those halflings that moved here. The opportunity is being able to store copies of those records in a dwarfhold.

It should gives us a pretty good angle for our pitch: KAU helps them track and record the bloodlines of halflings living at Eightpeaks and the two libraries share copies of their records so the knowledge is safely stored away next time someone burns down the Moot. In exchange we get at their other books and maybe they send some priests over to help with the library.
 
I think we should start on the Waystone project now, one of the actions at least. Now is the estimated start right? Might as well start on the right foot and be proactive before we get prodded. The favors is also a consequence I think. Other people put this pretty low on their priority list which makes sense. Other people have tried, we wanna prove it is viable, but we still have nothing to show for it. It might be best in the long run to at least have something to step on before we take on more debts, we honestly have no stock with Alaric, more a responsibility we offloaded to the EIC prior.

This is from a while ago.
I look forward to you discovering the apocrypha stories, there's quite a bit there and in the media tag that are a ton of fun.
Speaking of apocrypha, does Boney ever declare an omake as canon? I get that this quest was made before the sidestory category and it's too late to sort it out now, but even the ones that add flavor text to background characters aren't said to be one way or another.

If you do enshrine Ranald the Protector as the patron god of the Watch, then you'd be doing is effectively attempting trying to force a fifth facet of Ranald in the public consciousness - that of Ranald the Revolutionary - and thus purge the Protector of the unsavory aspects. Normally this sort of thing would be very frowned upon by the God in question, but Ranald the Deceiver - your Patron - would find it hilarious. And who knows? Perhaps eventually it will be reflected in the God Himself.
1: One Less God.
2: Two Gods Notice.
3: Man In The Middle.
4: Split Four Ways.
5: A Fifth Aspect.
6: The Sacred Number.
Waaaaaay back when we got the Coin, there was a 6-sided die rolled for the result of pitting Ranald against Mork, and the result was a 4. (Which got Mathilde the Coin and let Ranald guide Heidi into becoming Empress.) Many of us at the time speculated that a 5 would have resulted in a new aspect, that is, Ranald gaining a new fifth side to his divine portfolio. (Possibly one related to magic.) However, this update shows that Ranald had a fifth aspect all along: "The Father".

DL lore is deep.
Here's a series of metaphors for what I think these results meant.

1 is losing your shirt (god) while you went all in and ended up going over 21 on the decisive hand.
2 is getting your ass (god) handed to you and now the bouncers are holding up sledgehammers and looking at your kneecaps longingly.
3 is finding yourself with as much as you started with and now you have to actually deal with this hot potato (god) that's in your hands before it burns them off.
4 is getting a solid win, paying off your outstanding debts (god) and having enough left over to treat yourself to something nice (relic)
5 is winning big enough to start a new career (god), and have a good foundation to push yourself to respectability.
6 is winning the jackpot and getting mugged by a thug (god) on the way to the bank because your wealth was so delicious that they couldn't resist.

Is that a decent summation of what these all entailed @BoneyM ?
In the right ballpark, yeah.
Has anyone else speculated that Ranald's grand gambit would be to hold the concept of "6"? I don't think this'll lead to him getting absorbed, it's a fact that different Gods of different "peoples" can exist without contention. The result of 5 in the Only Mork roll, would be him getting another aspect, while getting a 6 would overrule an escalating reward because of Slaanesh holding the "6" concept. Which actually contests Ranald, since chance, especially a dice roll deciding a battle of Gods, is his wheelhouse. The reason I bring this up is because a 4-sided coin is pretty baseless. There's no belief that chances are related to anything with 4 results, just a coin which does plus divine-powered bullshit. So if 6 wasn't the best outcome, it has to be 5. But there also isn't anything that 5 can embody, and yet it was the best result. So I'm guessing the endgame would be 6 aspects.

He's the most primed for this from my perspective. No church, no clergy, doctrine, holy city, and no rituals. He's malleable, compared to someone like Sigmar at least. The reason I suspect he put his claws on the Prince I imagine is something related to this. If Gods are shaped by the faith of their followers that is, which I believe is true. I don't imagine he would have embodied the Father however. Not only was he disassociated from his daughters, he was also on fraught relations with the mother of his children.

But honestly, the 4-sided coin looked stupid to me as a relic and seemed like it was using bullshit-powered bullshit, that has to be inefficient right? Using some more bullshit to make that work?
 
@Boney, some questions about the mechanics of the turn:
-If we choose to investigate Gryphon's wood and recruit the Halethians, can we do the recruitment first to take advantage of any possible insights our potential new allies might have on the Forest of Shadows?

If there's multiple things that can feed into each other, I'll figure out which order will be most advantageous and do it in that order.

-If we turn the coin to the Father and also seek publishing contacts in Bretonnia, can Mathilde go out of her way to personally interact with worshippers of The Lady, to see if the coin procs?
-More generally, if we turn the coin to the Father can Mathilde do her best to interact with any and all worshippers of female Goddesses (eg. halflings in K8P when she passes through) on the off-chance that the coin's effect will be noticeable?

How do you propose she tells the difference between Coin-induced trust and faith, and those that feel that way due to her rank and reputation, and those who are acting that way out of politeness and courtesy?

@Boney IIRC you mentioned after we sacrificed the crystal that we could still investigate the divine power as long as we aren't trying to capture and study it, would something like "See if a miracle wielding priest can control divine power made from AV" be a valid AV option?

Priests in general are opposed to attempts to study divine magic, and attempting to cut the Gods entirely out of it is super heresy.

That's because if we're starting the Project this turn, we need to also be personally examining a Waystone this turn. Laying the Foundations is going to be an action spent managing other people, not Mathilde dedicating time to looking herself in any great detail.

Not necessarily 'need'. It'd be helpful, but not outright necessary, especially since Mathilde wouldn't be carrying all the weight of human contribution to the Project.

Speaking of apocrypha, does Boney ever declare an omake as canon? I get that this quest was made before the sidestory category and it's too late to sort it out now, but even the ones that add flavor text to background characters aren't said to be one way or another.

No, I toyed with that early on and then people started extrapolating huge amounts of information from innocuous lines and I downgraded 'Sidestory' to 'not incompatible with quest canon'. That isn't really a hugely meaningful distinction so they all ended up merged into Apocrypha. I might repurpose Sidestory for something else in the future.
 
How do you propose she tells the difference between Coin-induced trust and faith, and those that feel that way due to her rank and reputation, and those who are acting that way out of politeness and courtesy?
I imagine the coin is linked to the person who holds it right? If Mathilde uses her intrigue score to pose as someone not of high-rank or reputation that could work right? Or if the church is exclusive, engineer ways to bump into them.
 
How do you propose she tells the difference between Coin-induced trust and faith, and those that feel that way due to her rank and reputation, and those who are acting that way out of politeness and courtesy?
I was mostly thinking that it was worth trying just for the chance that the coin's effect is dramatic enough for Mathilde to notice. Something like how the Vlag dwarves were divinely informed of Mathilde's actions, that kind of thing. I don't know how likely it is, but I figured we might as well try just in case.
 
I imagine the coin is linked to the person who holds it right? If Mathilde uses her intrigue score to pose as someone not of high-rank or reputation that could work right? Or if the church is exclusive, engineer ways to bump into them.

While a bunch of complicated disguise shenanigans might give Mathilde insight into how the Coin works, it's not the sort of thing you can cram into a completely unrelated matter for free.
 
I will be honest at this point the talk of the Father just looks like the Sunk Cost Fallacy where we are trying to design ever more complex plans for how we could use it. Personally I was hoping for some indication that we might be on the right track from the books. Seeing as ewe have not gotten that and may even have gotten the reverse I think we should just forget about the Father and move on. With the confirmation that there is no possibility of Divine Tongs either I think we all got over-excited over the choice as a whole, and maybe over AV in general.

Let's just do the job we said we would do already without trying to get clever and perform three sorts of actions at once
 
Is there any interest in trying to get a Damsel from Brittonia or a Frost Witch from Kialev for the project? They both seemed interested enough in hosting to be worth an attempt.
 
I will be honest at this point the talk of the Father just looks like the Sunk Cost Fallacy where we are trying to design ever more complex plans for how we could use it. Personally I was hoping for some indication that we might be on the right track from the books. Seeing as ewe have not gotten that and may even have gotten the reverse I think we should just forget about the Father and move on. With the confirmation that there is no possibility of Divine Tongs either I think we all got over-excited over the choice as a whole, and maybe over AV in general.

Let's just do the job we said we would do already without trying to get clever and perform three sorts of actions at once
The Haletha theory was strong before and it remains strong after the new information. And I really don't appreciate the claim that my interest in the Father is the result of a fallacy. I care about it, you don't, that's fair enough, but don't try and invalidate my and other posters interest in something just because you don't share it.
 
The Haletha theory was strong before and it remains strong after the new information. And I really don't appreciate the claim that my interest in the Father is the result of a fallacy. I care about it, you don't, that's fair enough, but don't try and invalidate my and other posters interest in something just because you don't share it.

Haletha is weaker than it was IMO because we no longer have a sister for her, what looked like it might have been a sister is most likely an aspect.
 
Is there any interest in trying to get a Damsel from Brittonia or a Frost Witch from Kialev for the project? They both seemed interested enough in hosting to be worth an attempt.

Yes, I mentioned earlier I am keen to get the Bretonnian Damsels at least in to strengthen the human contribution to the project prior to starting it. We could try to get them and also start the project this turn if needed, but I do think we have time to go slower.
 
I will be honest at this point the talk of the Father just looks like the Sunk Cost Fallacy where we are trying to design ever more complex plans for how we could use it. Personally I was hoping for some indication that we might be on the right track from the books. Seeing as ewe have not gotten that and may even have gotten the reverse I think we should just forget about the Father and move on. With the confirmation that there is no possibility of Divine Tongs either I think we all got over-excited over the choice as a whole, and maybe over AV in general.

Let's just do the job we said we would do already without trying to get clever and perform three sorts of actions at once
I disagree, literally none of the arguments for checking multiple goddesses in a single turn have changed. We just aren't going to be doing it this turn.
 
I disagree, literally none of the arguments for checking multiple goddesses in a single turn have changed. We just aren't going to be doing it this turn.

If we start the project the inherent value of more contributors drops. The proposed way to check for multiple goddesses would be to go for multiple new contributors in a single turn. After we start the project that becomes less attractive when weighed against actions that actually advance the project. Opportunity Cost shifts once we take that baseline start up action.
 
I rather dislike the idea of taking Egrimm to investigate Alric. We told him we want him on board out of his own choice rather than being forced or ordered into it and he outright confirmed that he wants to get away from the internal conflict, so using him this way sounds a bit questionable.

If he's so talented, we can just throw him straight into it, for example investigating waystone + AV interaction.
 
[ ] Plan Allies and Favours
[ ] MAX: Study an artefact: (Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands)
[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (JOHANN)
[ ] WEB-MAT: Investigate Alric with one or more members of WEB-MAT (EGRIMM)

[ ] Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Frost)
[ ] Attempt to bring a non-Order magical tradition into the Waystone Project (Nordlander Hedgewise)
[ ] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (House Tindomiel)

[ ] EIC: Have the Hochlander set up a shadow headquarters for the EIC in the Sunken Palace.
[ ] Seek the publishing contacts to start acquiring large amounts of books from a nearby realm (Bretonnia)
[ ] Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm
[ ] The Father

So, that's my plan. A quick rundown of the actoins:
WEB-MAT:
Max is a good fit for studying the Asurian rubbings, as @Deathbybunnies pointed out, and it might give us some insight on Johann's arm for our coming paper. The investigation actions are done with Johann and Egrimm both because they are good fits for it and to launder those actions through WEB-MAT, freeing up our free action slots for other things.

EIC and Library:
We've been using the EIC as more of an information network lately, and having a shadow headquarters will make it more effective in that capacity. Bretonnia for reasons @Deathbybunnies pointed out and also on the very slim chance of the Father doing something. But really, I'm not too hung up about those, and setting up an audit division or attempting to get the cult of Quinsberry on the library are both good ideas.

Personal actions and the Father:
I've written before why I think we should get house Tindomiel here. I've also written a brief argument 2000 word essay on the Hedgewise and Halétha here. All of those arguments still apply, but now you can also add the fact that he Haléthains might have insights on the Forest of Shadows, which we're going to investigate in Gryphon Wood.
As for the ward of Frost, we are almost certainly going to recruit them and I really want to see what they are about before we do - unlike with the Great Houses, we are not going to get good information on them from other Eonir allies, because all other recruitment candidates are cityborn.

But mathymancer, don't we need to start this turn?
We don't have to start this turn. We just shouldn't put off starting forever. One more turn, to bring in the Hedgewise and a great house, is pretty reasonable in my opinion. Next turn we recruit the Ward of Frost, maybe look at a Waystone, and lay the foundations. If you really really want to start right now, replace the Ward Of Frost action with laying the foundations.

But isn't using the coin on the Father risky? We might not get anything at all, shouldn't we instead use the coin on X?
The Halétha theory is likely. It is super likely. Not only is it the likeliest by far, no other viable theory - in my opinion - has been suggested, with the sole exception of maybe The Lady which I guess might be her sister. As I point out in my post on the Hedgewise and Halétha, I seriously doubt the answer to the mystery of the daughters is 'someone so obscure you had no chance of finding them, better luck next time' and so I consider the absence of other likely theories another point in its favour.
Yes, it might be wrong, but dare to dream, people! At worst, we wasted the coin for a single turn. All the actions I propose are good for the project anyway so we didn't even waste AP. But even in that worst case scenario, you will at least get me to shut up about Halétha, and surely that's a good trade.
 
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