Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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Annatar said:
It was one (one) failure in a 2300 year long career of stellar service. Every other cult has fucked up immeasurably worse and more frequently than the Manannites have. By your logic we shouldn't trust any of them.
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I don't.

Most of cults are something to throw money at to make them shut up, to me.

Any relationship we have with any god, doesn't fucking need them.

Morr being the exception, purely because one of our kids is real invested in it.
 
Just realized: if gifting the ships is likely to have them be kept by Ostland (because Maghda cares about the faithful of Manann and doesn't want Ostland to get wrecked), then...

... Hell. The more we gift to the Cult, the more are likely to be stationed in Ostland.

And this way, we get Manann's most devout and skilled crewing those ships.

This isn't just a way to strengthen an ally and an act of faith in Manann, saying we trust the Cult of Manann to protest us.

It's also a way to temporarily get a crack crew for the very flagships of our fleet.

... Or, well, at least the chance for that. (I figure, if nat 1s are rolled, shit would go badly anyway.) But, again -- opportunity is here people! Let's grasp it with both hands.
BelligerentGnu said:
Do you not think that doing both (as in my plan, which gifts two and builds five) would not be greater than just the one? It has the practical effect of making the cult of manaan stronger, helping build back what they lost from thus entire debacle.
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Karnax626 said:
I'd rather go harder on gifting our current stock then keep any new ships we build, just to guarantee Manaan is appeased.
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... You know now that I think about it, there's actually a benefit to gifting our current Greatships rather than promising future Greatships to Manann, and that is...
Doomed Wombat said:
Which at the end of the day is what's important we can build more, but as noted in the update they're no fucking use sitting in docks because the people manning them are too terrified to go to sea because god may smack them with a lightening bolt!

I'd rather have them on water under Mannan's flag than rotting away and I want the capacity to properly build new ones and get em out to sea!
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Techmarine said:
Is it a sudden drop in power if they don't go anywhere? Rhetorical question.
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It's a drop in personal power and having them under our personal command is preferable over having to beg the cult of we really need them
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The fact that our current Greatships would suddenly be crewed by the most gifted and blessed of Manann's priests!


I'd... overlooked this, in my enthusiasm. But.

The Greatships would be going to the most favored and devout of Manann's Cult.

This has two effects and implications:

1. This means they are the most skilled at it, so our Greatships suddenly have a crew of superior skill!
2. Everybody else in Ostland is comforted by sailing alongside the most blessed and devout of Manann.

And that is why it's a better idea to gift our present ones, than to promise future ones.

Because, promising future ones really would just be the equivalent of paying off debts. But. Gifting our present ones... that's not just paying off debts, that's also temporarily getting an elite crack crew of Manannites too.

Because future-built-ones, we have no idea if Maghda would station them at Ostland. So, while the Cult would be pleased, there would be far less implication of them likely being stationed in Ostland. Whereas if we gift our current ones, I bet that at least 3 of them are going to stay in Ostland.
 
Again I say hand over two ships Fredrick's Fist and Oskar's Omen. The former because it has the most history and the latter because Oskar probably would have become a sailor if things had worked out. Then burn the DE ships and go full keel hauling.
 
Finally found some time to catch up on reading and the discussion.

The greatships are meant to satisfy the priesthood of the cult that think long term.

Giving away all our greatships will hurt our defenses, but not cripple them. We still have a lot of ships, mercenaries, and shore defenses. And we can focus on building more greatships in the years to come. As far as weregild goes, this is fairly cheap considering what we cost the cult.

And if we make a big statement by entrusting all our greatships to the Cult of Manann, then I do not doubt that Maghda could and would devote some or even most of them to defending the Empire's northern shores. She wants to HELP all of Manann's faithful, including those in Ostland.

If we trust her with all our greatships it's the best possible feather in her cap. One she will use for greater influence in the cult and she won't let our people be defenseless.

It's also on par with us paying off the weregild to Talabacland after the vampire war. A reconciliation gift of such magnitude may well get Frederick another NAME, a positive one.

Plus, the more people see the greatships in action, the more popular they'll be. Which is good for our shipbuilding business and the Empire.


We should also go all in on the keelhauling. The zealot priests and the masses want blood, and so this is something we don't want to half ass and leave them only partially satisfied. Stun them with our own audacity in taking the harshest punishment (while also giving the most ships).

Not even the zealots will be able to question Frederick paid his dues with the harshest option.

And again, the less grumbling from any faction and the more satisfied they are...the more influence Sprenger has. Which is also good for us because an important priest of the mercantile faction is of a family that opposes Frederick.

It also gets us the most reputation boost for accepting the harshest punishment. It could be taken positively as showing personal humility, deference to Manann, as well as toughness depending on who you ask.

We have the light of summer during the process. We also have Adira to heal us afterward if needed. We also have a Fortune Point and Fate Point if it comes down to it.

We can survive it, I'm very confident of that.

And let's not forget the most for both options in appeasing the god of oceans and rivers Will do the most to appease the actual god of oceans and rivers. Because he's a real thing here with real influence and that matters. Because his followers will recognize that and be less wary of Ostland, of course, but also metaphysical boons perhaps even blessings.

In summation: no more half measures.

[] Plan All in on Reconciling with Manann
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] All of the current greatships.
-[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
--[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]
 
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[] Plan Not all the Great Ships
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] Frederick's Fist and Oskar's Omen
-[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
--[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]
 
I'd like to remind people for a second that the Greatships are not our only navel assets. Even if we did give the cult all five, we'd still have Wolfships and Galleys in our fleet.
 
Hmmm, do people think we could get away with having Adira buff Freddy before the kneelhauling, assuming of course its not against the rules? There is a spell that would for a short time make his skin as hard as wood in the life lore after all.
Barkskin
- The skin of the target becomes hard and gnarled, as the bark of a tree. This acts as natural armour, although it comes at the price of decreased agility.
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The downside isn't much of one, it should be possible for a journeyman since we know stoneskin is a more advanced version of spell, and while it might not defend against all the damage it would prevent the worst of it.
 
Christ just take the barnacle back scratch. We need these ships to protect our coast, and the Mannanites have no reason to use our greatships to protect us.

Saying that by giving the Mannanites the ships they'll suddenly be sailed by the best crews to protect us is pure speculation. I prefer to rely on personal power over borrowed power.
 
Slaggedfire said:
Christ just take the barnacle back scratch. We need these ships to protect our coast, and the Mannanites have no reason to use our greatships to protect us.

Saying that by giving the Mannanites the ships they'll suddenly be sailed by the best crews to protect us is pure speculation. I prefer to rely on personal power over borrowed power.
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The thought is not based on pure speculation.
torroar said:
Likely for patrolling the Sea of Claws still, as Marienburg lets out into the westernmost portion of that. Possible as mobile temple ships. Or could be sent elsewhere. If they're under the command of Maghda, she can basically send them wherever she wants. Like, hell, I dunno, patrolling the Ostland segment of the Sea of Claws but under the flag of the Cult of Manann rather than any one province. After all, the Temple of Salkalten is a confirmed sight of Manann's holy wrath protecting his faithful.

The Cult of Manann definitely has the support and equipment to do that sort of thing, though. It's...kind of their thing.
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
The thought is not based on pure speculation.
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I'd argue that is still speculation though. I mean, yes, it's from torroar so there's some basis for the idea. But a) that's just an option and b) he said that it's "likely." Neither of which makes it a sure thing. And he goes on to list a few other options that Maghda/the Cult can take* once they have the Greatships (And there might be more unlisted).

Now, I'm fine with giving up the Greatships, personally (How many, I haven't decided one way or another) and I do believe that if we succeed in appeasing the Cult well enough that Maghda will push to protect the Ostland coast for the followers.

But to say that it's 100% guaranteed that Maghda/the Cult will send the Greatships, while crewed by them, back to Ostland to protect it is false (which I believe may be Slagged's point) because there's still some risk (no matter how small it actually may be) they might send some/all of them** elsewhere***.

*And we have no idea of Maghda/the Cult will make these decisions narratively or based on background rolls by torroar.

**Depending on how many we ultimately give up.

***And it could be for legitimate reasons, like the Black Arks we had been worried about reappearing elsewhere on the Old World or something. Maghda doesn't seem to be the type to jerk us around. But as y'all mentioned time and time again, the Cult of Mannan aren't exactly a unified force. I can buy Rutger's (I forget how the name is spelled) faction jerking us around if they get their hands on the Greatships/a Greatship since we know they're not gonna be satisfied.
 
[] Plan Thanatos
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Burn Them: It will hurt. Oh, it will hurt. But that is the nature of sacrifice. If it gains you a true and weighty reprieve from the Cult, it may well be worth it to ensure the prosperity of Ostland's coastal and river settlements. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Considerable Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] Fist of Frederick
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] Oskar's Omen, Alexandra's Hammer, Blue Anna
-[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
--[] Marvelous Maisel: An extremely large supply ship, apparently used to confer certain supplies to Sea-Born vessels out on the ocean such as medicines that cannot be sourced out on the ocean. Has not been cleaned at all. [More Dangerous/Major Appeasement/Approval Gain]

It's been...a long while since I last made a plan, huh.

Anyway, reiterating some points from my last post. Druchii vessels basically don't matter, they go on the pyre. Burning the Fist is a bigger symbolic statement, given it's both the first of the design and the one named after Freddy himself. Three ships, named for his children, go to the Cult, while the Natasha's Grace is the only one kept.

As for the Keelhauling, the second most dangerous is enough, given the amount of ships being burned or given away, there's no need to go super overboard (hah) with the temple ship.
 
So here are most of the unique plans so far:
Note If your plan isn't here its either the same as a plan below or I missed it. Will repost this later with updated unique plans.

Giving away some ships.
[]Plan Reaper
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] 1 Ostland Greatship 'Oskar's Omen'
-[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry.
--[] Five-Tined Hunter: A wolf ship of the Cult of Manann that sails regularly against corsairs, pirates, worshippers of Stromfels, Druchii, and so on. [Dangerous/Appeasement/Approval Gain]
-[] Donate 3000 gold to Mannan.
note give away 1 ship/level 3 keelhaul/3000 donation

[] Plan Not all the Great Ships
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] Frederick's Fist and Oskar's Omen
-[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
--[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]
note give away 2 ships/level 5 keelhaul

Updated plans:

note all 3 plans give up 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen.' the only difference is keelhauling. And we take the LOS off.
Keelhauling level 3 and giving up 3 greatships
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Five-Tined Hunter: A wolf ship of the Cult of Manann that sails regularly against corsairs, pirates, worshippers of Stromfels, Druchii, and so on. [Dangerous/Appeasement/Approval Gain]
-[] Leave the Light of summer behind. Otherwise it would just heal us while we're being Keelhauled.

Kealhauling level 4
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Marvelous Maisel: An extremely large supply ship, apparently used to confer certain supplies to Sea-Born vessels out on the ocean such as medicines that cannot be sourced out on the ocean. Has not been cleaned at all. [More Dangerous/Major Appeasement/Approval Gain]
-[] Leave the Light of summer behind. Otherwise it would just heal us while we're being Keelhauled.

Kealhauling level 5
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]
-[] Leave the Light of summer behind. Otherwise it would just heal us while we're being Keelhauled.

note all 3 plans give up 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen.' the only difference is keelhauling. And we keep the LOS on.
Keelhauling level 3 and giving up 3 greatships
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Five-Tined Hunter: A wolf ship of the Cult of Manann that sails regularly against corsairs, pirates, worshippers of Stromfels, Druchii, and so on. [Dangerous/Appeasement/Approval Gain]

Kealhauling level 4
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Marvelous Maisel: An extremely large supply ship, apparently used to confer certain supplies to Sea-Born vessels out on the ocean such as medicines that cannot be sourced out on the ocean. Has not been cleaned at all. [More Dangerous/Major Appeasement/Approval Gain]

Kealhauling level 5
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]
note give away 3 ships/level 2/4/5 keelhaul

[] Plan All in on Reconciling with Manann
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] All of the current greatships.
-[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
--[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]
note give away all 5 ships/level 5 keelhaul

[] Plan Thanatos
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Burn Them: It will hurt. Oh, it will hurt. But that is the nature of sacrifice. If it gains you a true and weighty reprieve from the Cult, it may well be worth it to ensure the prosperity of Ostland's coastal and river settlements. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Considerable Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] Fist of Frederick
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] Oskar's Omen, Alexandra's Hammer, Blue Anna
-[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
--[] Marvelous Maisel: An extremely large supply ship, apparently used to confer certain supplies to Sea-Born vessels out on the ocean such as medicines that cannot be sourced out on the ocean. Has not been cleaned at all. [More Dangerous/Major Appeasement/Approval Gain]
note give away 3 ships/burn 1 ship/level 4 keelhaul

Lets try and keep the number of plans down to a minimum. So far as I can tell (after reading through the thread) most players want to give up around 3 ships and level 3 keelhaul.
 
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Stop: Rule 3 and 4
  • Staff Post
    • etincelle047 said:
    I completely disagree with what you are saying,
    But you've already won anyway, because whatever we vote for, narratively Freddy is being framed as the bad guy in this story; and he will repent. One way or another.
    I disagree with this framing, i think that it does not make sense in the political and historical context of Warhammer.

    You have been defending that framing, and de facto will be right since it's the author's.
    I Don't have anything to add to this conversation, and since I Don't think that the situation we are in could have come to be in the first place, I'll return to lurking.

    Oh, and by the way, fuck you and your HARD MEN MAKING HARD DECISIONS WHILE HARD.
    Have a nice day.
    Click to expand...
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    rule 3 and 4
    This is both uncivil and enormously disruptive to the thread. I have infracted you and temporarily suspended you from the thread. When you return I expect you to be less abrasive to everyone else in the thread with you.
     
  • Staff Post
    • wait wait wait
    torroar said:
    Frederick bend over while she pegs him with a narwhal horn strap-on
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    why can't we just do this?
    :V





    On another note, this section stood out to me a little:
    torroar said:
    "I did not come here to compare failings between the Cults of the Empire. None are free of sin or mistake, this I know well enough," you grind out through gritted teeth.

    This time, it is Maghda who rocks her head back slightly before she lowers it, acknowledging your point.
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    I wonder if she'd been half-expecting a more extreme Witch Hunter-esque Sigmarite rather than a former edgelord atheist.
     
    ninjafish said:
    The greatships are orders of magnitude superior to either of those things.
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    Ehhh. One order of magnitude, tops- I wouldn't bet on one of our greatships to beat even ten of our smaller ships, and that would be pushing it... and that's what "order of magnitude" means.

    And even if true- giving up one or two greatships is something like a 10% reduction of our overall naval force. We can live with that, in exchange for, y'know, being able to continue operating our naval force.

    Slaggedfire said:
    Christ just take the barnacle back scratch. We need these ships to protect our coast, and the Mannanites have no reason to use our greatships to protect us.
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    We can defend our coast adequately with one or two less greatships. Like, if some Norscans blew one the fuck up, we'd grunt and keep moving; it wouldn't be the end of the world for us. This is better than that, because while the Manaanites surely won't use the ships to defend our coast all the time, they'll be using the things to fight the good fight somewhere.

    I'd much rather sign over a few greatships than take even a fairly small chance of Freddy dying.
     
    Well that is done and done then...So who wants to have Freddy go for a swim later and go gut a Megalodon just to spite Mannan? :V

    Or maybe even go hand-to-hand combat with a school of Sharks later? I'm sure that we can gain the "Shark Puncher Pugilist" title after we defeat a few. It would be a great way for Freddy to let off some steam and maybe Urgdug could join for a dip as well? I'm sure that he will appreciate obtaining a new title.

    It would be quite the challenging recreational activity if I must say so.
     
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    Doomed Wombat said:
    the empire is objectively the worst human nation in the old world.
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    Absolutely fucking wrong. Let's see what happens if you are born as a peasant.
    Kislev: As good as it gets considering where they live.
    Brettonia: Your entire life consists of recreations of the repression scene in Monthy Python.
    Estalia: Not enough canon information.
    Tilea: Puppet in the games of merchant princes.
    Border Princes: Border Princes.
    Empire: The worst that can happen is an overzealous witch hunter burning your village down or inter province fighting.

    Witch:
    Kislev: If female, forced into Ice Witches or die. If male, die.
    Brettonia: If female, Damsel of the Lady (that is to say, unwitting mouthpiece of a eugenics program that miserably failed in the End Times). If male, Sons of Bretonnia or die (though it wasn't mentioned later, so likely just die at the latest canon).
    Empire before Magnus the Pious: Die if unstable (totally justified in universe), or become one of the Hedgewise if "lucky". After Magnus the Pious: The only place that can help you survive through official institutions.
    Estalia and Tilea: Good luck with no formal training.
    Border Princes: Border Princes.

    Not counting Greenskins and Chaos as those are universally present.
    The Empire provided a great power that survived a magical black death, being split in three for centuries, WAAAAGH Gorbad, Gorthor's rampage and the Great War Against Chaos, and dealt far more than they took in the End Times, only failing to survive due to literal backstabbing by Mannfred.
     
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    I'm asking why people are so desperate to give up ships we need for ourselves. Keep in mind we STILL have the weakest naxy. Even after all the years of buildup. I think this is a fair concern. Plus people who say that manaan priests are likely to protect our coast after we give them what they want? Under what basis do we know they will care about us? Did I miss s ok mething or misread their actions towards us?
     
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