Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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torroar said:
Like the necromancy one with the warpstone that props up an entire tower, a permanent one. I can definitely see sufficient channeling of Dhar and favor of the Dark Gods and magic and what not able to do lots of funky stuff.
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Can't believe theres On demand Slaanesh brothels boring ass nerdy wizards can just wave their hands and summon up! This is stupidly unfair, Infernal Rapturess, play despaci- Is skinned alive
 
@torroar
You mentioned in at least one update Hultressa has an extremely good grasp of anatomy, including nerves. I remember, likewise, the Emilia interlude where an Empire doctor struggles to define loss of sensation from nerve damage in a way Emilia would understand, and in fact was talking about what was a theoretical concept to him? And he also may or may not have been a Chaos Cultist connected to Heart-Taker, which should suggest more knowledge, not less (unless he was bullshitting because, again, Chaos Cultist)?

torroar said:
"Ah, that is perhaps what it might seem like, but I have noticed, after thirty years of working in medicine and the living body, certain oddities," he said quickly, pleased to speak on his own research, though he quailed slightly as both veterans stared him down. "Ahem. That is, much like the blood flows and ebbs like the tides of the ocean, so too are there reefs within, bedrock vital portions of life itself in hidden form. My lady," he bowed his head with respect to Emilia while also helping him not have to look at their eyes, "You have been struck across the body in so many places, set on fire, blown up, thrown about by…," he gulped, "Thrown about with great force, and have been apparently struck by…by lightning, yes?"

"Thrice," Emilia croaked, "All by witches, one by hand, another by staff, and a third called it out of the sky on a summer's cloudless day."

"Exactly," Ziebermann said, spine bending back as he straightened, the eager gleam in his eyes dimming immediately upon having to match gazes with the witch hunters. "That, is to say, erm, that according to the Aqua Sanguis theories of-,"

"The point, herr doctor," Marlisa interrupted, one hand coming to clench on her mother's shoulder, the other at the saber on her hip.

"The connections of the body, the reefs, I suspect that years of trauma have, that is, have become damaged," he blabbered rapidly, "The tidal flow of her blood through her body is broken by these…I have been referring to them as marrow reefs in my research, and," he cut himself off as Marlisa tilted her head. "I mean to say that while her blood still flows to these extremities and the like, the sensations…don't," he finished lamely before clearing his throat nervously.
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So that got me wondering, what exactly is the upper limit on biological knowledge (or knowledge in general, really) in the Warhammer World? Do the likes of elves, Nurglite priests, or Tomb Kings know of things like cell theory and germ theory, DNA, and or in general come close to our own modern levels of knowledge about the natural world in any meaningful way? The Skaven certainly have extreme technological advancement relative to the other species, but they seem to be an anomaly. Does any other faction actually rival our real-life scientific and technological achievements, even if it's not immediately visible? I know the Dwarves have gyrocopters and Drakefire Pistols (which seem to be semi-automatic if Vermintide 2 means anything), and Elves and the Dragons of Cathay have a ridiculous amount of time to dedicate to learning and experimentation. If they wanted to make technological marvels similar to our own, that used no or minimal magic, for whatever reason, would they be able to do so?

I guess what I'm asking is, would an Elven academic or Princess An know about cell division, epigenetics, or high-level quantum physics?

EDIT: And exactly how primitive is the Empire's (or other human-dominated nations') level of scientific knowledge in comparison?

EDIT 2: I'm also aware that the Lizardmen exist, but given that they're the only species with a direct line to the Old Ones I'm still extremely curious what the upper limit of their non-magical knowledge is, since they seem to use magic for everything. Could they rival a sci-fi setting if they wanted to?
 
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Isn't the best way to deal with a waaaagh fracturing its leadership and assassination? KaK needs more assassins, not more lavas
 
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RwconHD said:
Isn't the best way to deal with a waaaagh fracturing its leadership and assassination?
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To a degree yes. But that assumes that you can actually get to them and that there's no one else capable of actually taking the reigns. Even if you do manage to fracture its unity by killing its leaders there's still a chance for the fracturing warbands to attempt to take control of all the others by beating each other in the face until one comes out on top and end up causing trouble elsewhere.
 
Thebigpieman said:
To a degree yes. But that assumes that you can actually get to them and that there's no one else capable of actually taking the reigns. Even if you do manage to fracture its unity by killing its leaders there's still a chance for the fracturing warbands to attempt to take control of all the others by beating each other in the face until one comes out on top and end up causing trouble elsewhere.
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As far as assassination goes, I'm going to have to disagree. If all the greenskins are already together you have the recipe for a leader to emerge. Usually from the big bosses that followed them. In my opinion (don't know if it's backed up anywhere) the death of a leader in a battle is what breaks up a Waaagh. They have the field going, the shamans drawing on the power and the warbosses bloodlust and fightiness absolutely pushing the horde to battle. Then that most important cog dies, a short circuit. The warboss equivalent is the crank shaft, unless his hand gets the motor running, the motor doesn't start. Well the motor was running so the car will drift for a bit... then everyone will scrap it for parts and fight over the profits.
 
RwconHD said:
Isn't the best way to deal with a waaaagh fracturing its leadership and assassination? KaK needs more assassins, not more lavas
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also, you know, got luck assassinating these guys. One of those warbosses is equivalent to a greater demon.

As long as you don't have Alith Anar or mayyyyyybbbbbeee sniktch on your payroll, trying to assassinate them would be futile
 
torroar said:
there are magical rituals in-universe which can create whole structures with no gods required. Like the necromancy one with the warpstone that props up an entire tower, a permanent one. I can definitely see sufficient channeling of Dhar and favor of the Dark Gods and magic and what not able to do lots of funky stuff.
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I wonder if a slaanesh chaos champion or Sorcerer with a really big ego has tried to to use one of those rituals to try and make a truly massive statue of themselves.
 
Genon said:
You mentioned in at least one update Hultressa has an extremely good grasp of anatomy, including nerves. I remember, likewise, the Emilia interlude where an Empire doctor struggles to define loss of sensation from nerve damage in a way Emilia would understand, and in fact was talking about what was a theoretical concept to him? And he also may or may not have been a Chaos Cultist connected to Heart-Taker, which should suggest more knowledge, not less (unless he was bullshitting because, again, Chaos Cultist)?
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The reason why the doctor is so nervous is likely because studying anatomy is considered to be necromancy in the Empire, due in part to the fact that a number of what appear to be books on anatomy are really cleverly disguised necromantic tomes.
 
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ya lot know the steampowered tug-like river stamboats? since the regular river boats are already so common, how hard would it be to make some ? we talked about it , haven't we?

What I do not recall talking about is a Dwarfen made WINE called Gragrint , which they apparently make from wine creating proces wastes.
It may be unique to imperial dwarfs of single human settlement or region, but still! Freddy would be intrested.
Or is averheim like a barrony of the Empire wine capital ? No, wait, it's in Averland... wait...
I'm confused.

iggyfan said:
The reason why the doctor is so nervous is likely because studying anatomy is considered to be necromancy in the Empire, due in part to the fact that a number of what appear to be books on anatomy are really cleverly disguised necromantic tomes.
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Is ther not a spell, that allows for transparency of flesh? as in seeing what's insied of a person without any actuall invasion?
probably Hysh specific cantrip or the like...
 
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A Bit On Medicine in Warhammer
  • Informational
    • Genon said:
    biology questions
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    So, we've actually gone over this before, here and there, in the thread. No worries, it's super heug and all that.

    So, in the 2E infobook Trade, Medicine, and More, it is described that a good bit of early knowledge on medicine in the Old World came from elves. The first Millennium of the Empire's existence had hundreds and thousands of scholars working on herbs, ailments, and so on. All coming around from the first major elf medical scholar known to the Old World, a dude named Gaelen. Now, setting aside such biases, obviously plenty of human tribes and dwarfs besides didn't simply exist in a weird state of no medicine at all. That would be absurd beyond any suspension of disbelief. But it still led to an overall 'Gaelenic' philosophy of medicine for lack of any better common term, and one that no human scholar extended beyond the principles of for a long, long time. Gaelenic philosophy is basically thus:

    These focused on observing a patient's colour, temperature and temperament, and then treating him with the appropriate tincture, powder or salve. The "Gaelenic" philosophy, as it eventually became known, likens the human body to a seedling, needing only the right balance of nutrients to grow strong. This mindset was the core of all Imperial medicine until two events changed the Empire forever.

    ^The first aforementioned event was the Black Plague in 1111, where medicine straight up failed, no herbal remedy worked, an invisible danger, etc. Diseases became regarded - all of them - as the work of Chaos itself and needed to be literally burned out with fire. Doctors who tried curing things instead of doing that were condemned, and medicine basically entered a dark age.

    The dark age included, as some already mentioned, necromancy rising up around the same time:

    At the same time the Necromancers were rising to power, every day performing darker and more perverted explorations into the nature of flesh. For the first time, the temple of the body was thrown open, and as these dark sorcerers made it their unholy playground, they also learned a great deal about anatomy. Much of it they (thankfully) took to their graves, but some of it was preserved and passed on, thus producing the greatest leap forward in medicine since Gaelen. Works such as The Flayed Man and The Creeping Flesh date from this era, and are among the most prized of all medical works—and the most suppressed. Necromantic studies were the keepers of medical knowledge for over 500 years until another great tragedy sparked a new look at medicine.

    ^ Said second thing was the Red Pox of 1786, which was a much more mundane disease than the Black Plague. To make a long story short, this began to make academics start looking at disease as a natural phenomenon compared to purely Chaos. Looking at animals, that sort of thing. Human dissection still very much considered necromancy, but they could look at animals. The human body became recognized as something closer to a 'nexus of flesh, bone, organs and vessels, each of which could be examined and treated separately.'

    Then came Leonardo di Miragliano during the Tilean renaissance, and while one of his most notable contributions to the Empire was the steam tanks and other funny bits and bobs, he also got involved in medicine. Figures, right? Gaelen the elf saw the body as 'sacred and inviolate, to be nurtured as a whole, never cut apart'. The new philosophy, brought about by the greatest human engineer of his time, brought about the 'Mechanicals' medical philosophy. Body a big ol machine with cogs and what not. Cutting and amputating is like fixing a clock.

    Of course, most doctors in the modern age can appreciate both sides, with using some holistic refined medicines and others doing amputations and the like, but there are some people where it's a matter of morality and faith, and teaching. So Gaelenic/Mechanical splitting of medical theory and practice is an issue of all modern Old World medicine. By the 2520s Imperial Calendar, Mechanical is the prevailing medical opinion of Tilea and Estalia.

    However.

    The same is not true of the Empire, which is actually for more Gaelenic. Also it focuses a lot on the Cult of Morr, which is funny because the Tome of Salvation has the Cult's mega main headquarters in Tilea, but the Empire is the Empire after all. Different cultures and everything. Dissections of the human body are allowed in Tilea, but it is considered something only possible in such decadent southern states. The Empire sees such things as a violation of the will of Morr:

    The Empire, however, still resists this practice, seeing it as a violation of the will of Morr: after death, a man must be placed in Morr's Garden as soon as possible, not be opened out and toyed with. Any act of human dissection is considered necromancy, and remains punishable by death. Elements within the University of Nuln publicly protest this band; many others simply contravene the law in secret.

    It is now widely accepted amongst the medical community that the frontiers of medicine cannot be expanded without examining the human body. This is so much the case that grave robbing is one of the most profitable criminal occupations to be found, with demand sky-high for the services of any 'resurrection man' strong enough to heft a shovel and brave enough to risk being burnt at the stake. A budding department in the generally regarded conservative University of Nuln now includes a dissection demonstration as part of its fifth year curriculum (after swearing all the students to secrecy, of course). They require so many bodies that a criminal organisation known as the Resurrection Brotherhood has evolved and become very wealthy filling the demand. Led by a ruthless Halfling known as Bloody Jacob, the Brotherhood's motto is "Dead before supper, delivered before breakfast."

    So you've got some absolutely wild issues with people and medicine and education on the matter, not even getting into how obviously your teacher's philosophies will inevitably get passed on down to you in the course of your education.

    Not to mention how superstition and belief and truth can mix and meld oddly in Warhammer and the Realm of Chaos and magic and mutation and all that. Consider this:

    The head and throat are considered akin to the Realm of Law, the heart, circulation and liver likened to the Realm of Man and the stomach, bowel and sexual organs associated with Chaos. Each area is also associated with an exhalation—one of the Three Fluids—the colour and composition of which is used for diagnosis. The throat is judged by the phlegm, the heart by the blood and the bowel by the faeces: if any of these are darkly coloured, the physician will know the area in question is afflicted. The darker the colour, the worse the sickness.

    Like...there's something there, but they're not necessarily talking about bacterial infections or staph or fungal and the differences therein that can be studied with a microscope and other lab specific sampling and testing like IRL, you know what I mean? Certain parts of the Cult of Morr and many doctors believe that blood rises and falls in the body like the tides, as in, washing from one end to the other like a miniature ocean inside of you, or water inside a bottle. Not to mention, the Shallyan Order of the Bleeding Heart provides care, food, and housing, and medicine second, and people love them. They do not ignore medicine and medical treatments, but they do not focus upon them as much as their regular stuff, and also importantly, their actual divine powers. There's even a note that some Shallyans get called in to deal with botched surgeries so often that many Shallyans think of surgery at all - the very practice of it - to just be basically human butchery. But it also notes that not every temple has an anointed Shallyan with divine power behind them to deal with the truly diseased, pestilence-stricken, and insane. So then you got to get a doctor.

    So! Here's some other notes we have on common Old World medical knowledge/practices:

    The extent of surgical knowledge in the Old World includes setting broken bones (if the break is clean), staunching the flow of blood and the spread of infection (if treatment is performed quickly enough), and stitching skin to hold together what's left (if the wound is narrow enough). Anything more complicated is solved by removing the affected area with either a heavy cleaver or the slower but neater bone saw. A good surgeon is one who can cut off the damaged areas without destroying the entire appendage; a great surgeon is one who can do it quickly, because anaesthetic remains a mystery and because the longer a wound is exposed, the greater the risk of infection.

    So obviously part of this is a bit wonky, because we've got alcohol, pain-killing/numbing herbs and poultices, and so on. Magical painkillers and what not as well, same for dwarfs. Probably something called Valaya's Comfort is probably a brew made for medical practices in the Karaz Ankor, yeah. Also, bleeding is still a very, very common method of treatment for both Mechanicals and Gaelinic physicians.

    And stuff like this:

    As described in WFRP, the current favoured treatments for insanity are either surgery or exotic drugs. Small traces of heavy metals are currently in vogue: slivers of iron, silver or mercury are placed in wine and prescribed twice a day. Mercury, also called Sigmar's Blood, is an expensive but increasingly ubiquitous wonder drug, considered useful for a wide variety of mental and physical illnesses. Taking a tincture of mercury grants the prescribing physician +5% to his Heal Test of any disease or affliction, however anyone taking mercury must also make a Toughness Test or gain 1 Insanity point. This does not replace the automatic Insanity gained for a much stronger dose.

    So! Would an Old World, Empire specifically, known about nerves and nerve damage? Not necessarily. Even as a Slaaneshi, and yes, you have stuff exemplified in a line by the succubus Sarrissa from The Secret World video game:

    "You, me...on a beach of razor fossils. The vultures of Leng plucking your nerve endings like a fabulous instrument. Call me sometime."

    So, sure, yeah, a Slaaneshi could know such things. They have Pain and Pleasure, and the two are opposites yet entwined inextricably, taken to inhuman excesses in the course of Slaanesh and those that are of it. But, knowing how to cause the most pain, to pluck nerve endings, to burn them or inflame them, to quiet and numb them, and so on? Absolutely something in their purview, even if the victim would just see them wave a hand or something and feel it. However, that kind of knowledge? Why on earth would they just give it away, when you can have someone sacrifice, labor for you, as a payment? Your lower level informant cultist like that guy was, not a full blown major cult leader or inner circle member, would not, more likely than not, be granted such knowledge and information without immense effort and payment to either the rest of the Cult or Slaanesh or one of Its servants.

    The wizards and mages and what not that are especially utilizing Ghyran and are thus immensely in tune with life might have a better idea of things and how they go. You can sear wounds shut with Aqshy, or restore them to health with Hysh, cleansing and what not, but Ghyran gets into the nitty gritty of life itself, the organisms and water and earth and what not rather than more ephemeral airy concepts like how Hysh does things. Qhaysh is mega magic melding so it's another thing altogether, a thing of imagination and will made manifest on a level beyond most singular Wind stuff. So they might know much more intimately stuff about veins, nerves, bones, organ, tissue, etc. but not necessarily know the exact terminology of what they are restoring, or why each does what it does. On the other hand, they might know them intimately, instinctively, unnaturally/naturally through that magic to the point that they might not know an occipital lobe from a temporal one on the brain, or that the bile from the gallbladder does this, or how the different vertebrae of the spinal cord are connected to different parts of the body's command and control function, but that they do.

    As for an elven academic or dragon, they could possibly know about cell division, but not as we would know it, because to them magic and that sort of existence and perception are just inhuman enough to see it in a way we don't. They would have had thousands upon thousands of years with knowledge and practice beyond what Mendell sort of stuff could do, or yeah, changes from the environment or behavior could do things without actually knowing precisely what the heck DNA is or a sequence of it. Knowing about innermost secrets of the body like that, that there is some sort of method to the madness of biology, sure, but DNA proper? Probably not. They don't really need to, at the end of the day, for the most part at least.

    As for higher level quantum physics...at the upper reaches, could we really say that magic isn't akin to that, or vice versa?

    Like, we know that Hysh and Shyish can literally futz around with time. In the Realm of Chaos, especially, and how that spills out into the world, all IRL assumptions about quantum physics and the laws of reality kind of break down. Or, at least, can be a bit bendy.

    As for Lizardmen, that question doesn't really work because all that they are is of magic. They were handcrafted by the otherworldly transdimensional space/time commanding/beyonding Old Ones. Their knowledge of the world is wholly colored by this, by the Old Ones who gave rise to them, and the metaphysical factors tied to their existence past, present, and future. Could they make a gun? Maybe, a Slann is definitely capable of figuring that sort of thing out. But they don't need to make a mundane explosion when they can wave a hand and will fire and heat and concussive force into existence. You know what I mean? Even in the End Times/Age of Sigmar, their pyramid/stone ships are space ships and stellar crossing starships powered with magic, in a reality of magic, with magic aid, and then they died, and half-became constellations of magic and such.

    Does that help answer anything? Apologies if it got too rambly.
     
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  • Informational
    • torroar said:
    "My mother made many studies of the human body in her time. Only with volunteers. She learned much, though,"
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    torroar said:
    The Empire, however, still resists this practice, seeing it as a violation of the will of Morr
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    I wonder with all the knowledge they gathered if death twins can cause some ripple effects in the empire. They already have a friendly relation with Cult of Morr in Arthur. Even without that as Tilea isn't against surgery so much I don't think empire's stance is purely religious. Probably as torrar said more of a cultural case, with all their collective trauma after Nagash/average necromencer/Vampire Wars.

    I think AA's perspective may be helpful and help a little bit to advance the progress of medical fields in the empire.
     
    torroar said:
    BIG SNIP
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    I wonder if Arthur can pull some strings to allow us dissect the recently deceased, one of the ways, I think you go about this is by asking. People if the want to donate there body, so that the art of healing can be improved upon, like we do in our world. of course, once we learn what we can from their bodies, they will be buried with all the honors and respect that the cult of morr would expect. actually, now I'm thinking about it. How important is Arthur to the cult of morr. I know he's important, but just how important Is he? I forgot
     
    torroar said:
    Medicine/Magic/Bio stuff.
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    I would like to add onto this that there is no actual scientific development, because science requires you to make falsifiable hypotheses and design experiments (or use observational evidence) to test them, because science assumes that everything in the natural world has a logical, natural explanation. But in a world where magic, gods and demons are demonstrably real, a lot of things have a supernatural explanation and thus the scientific method is not developed...

    The scientific method created almost everything we use today, in one way or another, without it we would progress just as slowly as the technology of the Empire.

    The only race to have any inclinations to scientific theory is the magic resistant AND magic hating dawi and even they seems to agree that the exact same experiments can have wildly different outcomes simply because what day it is/season/phases of the moon etc. etc...

    *yes, most of the arguments are borrowed from greater minds than mine but still.
     
    torroar said:
    The Empire, however, still resists this practice, seeing it as a violation of the will of Morr: after death, a man must be placed in Morr's Garden as soon as possible, not be opened out and toyed with. Any act of human dissection is considered necromancy, and remains punishable by death. Elements within the University of Nuln publicly protest this band; many others simply contravene the law in secret.
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    Sadly, given cultural basis and trauma due to Empire suffering from a lot of Vampire/Necromancer attacks, many view any study of dead bodies as a slippery slope to necromancy at best most of the time.

    Funny how Jade College magical healing is viewed more favourly than studying medicine, lol.

    How does the Order of the Garden feel about the study of dead bodies to improve medical knowledge? About the same as rest of Empire?
     
    cabal2.0 said:
    How important is Arthur to the cult of morr. I know he's important, but just how important Is he?
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    I think, as a high priest and founder of a new order he is the most important Morrian in the northern half of Empire. At the very least he should be like a first among equals. I checked personages of importage page to make sure but it seems there isn't a singular head honcho of Morr for Empire. Tho with how decentralized Cult of Morr is he can very well be the most influential one in the Empire after his deeds, connections etc.
     
    NutMaster said:
    I think, as a high priest and founder of a new order he is the most important Morrian in the northern half of Empire. At the very least he should be like a first among equals. I checked personages of importage page to make sure but it seems there isn't a singular head honcho of Morr for Empire. Tho with how decentralized Cult of Morr is he can very well be the most influential one in the Empire after his deeds, connections etc.
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    So he has a lot of pull in the northern empire and possibly beyond, yeah, I can definitely see him helping us out with expanding medical science. One more thing to add to the things oust land is currently pushing the limits of, besides guns and alcohol.
     
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    Massgamer said:
    How does the Order of the Garden feel about the study of dead bodies to improve medical knowledge? About the same as rest of Empire?
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    I think they don't like it due to its relation with necromany but are unwilling to ban it on religious grounds because the main cult headquartered in Taila where a lot of that kind of medial research happens don't or possibly can't ban it , so they avoid making a definitive hard stance lest they be accused of a double standard that might erode their legitimacy and political standing or even be overturned by secular powers due to the greater cult lacking a united front on the matter
     
    EyeOfSauron said:
    If the Empire won't accept their knowledge, they might find a receptive audience in Kislev.
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    there is plenty of receptive audiences in the empire's medical communities, its the superstitious ignorant peasant Foulk and the kind of overeager zealot witch hunters and religious fanatics who think reading ability is a gateway drug to damming your soul that so hung up about it , Luckly Ostland is not a democracy and none of those people rule the province , Fredric does and his word as proven by his legal reforms is LAW so if he says that kind of medical research legal then that is that
     
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