Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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cabal2.0 said:
Why are you bringing atheists into this discussion? Not trying to start an argument just asking because it doesn't seem prevalent to the discussion.
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I would like to explain but apparently I'm so bad at it @torroar felt the need to reiterate a point he's already made on this very page. Kind of hard to see the point of explaining my argument better when the OP of the thread already responded to it by repeating himself. I' m gonna go away from this thread at least for today now.
 
torroar said:
It's how the Blessed of Morr think things work, so it's not really a matter of what IRL mortification works or what IRL atheists or anti-theists think, though.

That's how this specific divergent sect of Morrites think and perceive things. So it's not really a matter of whatever mortification 'actually works'. Because how it 'actually works' for the Blessed of Morr is how it works for them - the more suffering, the swifter you will be brought to Morr's Realm of bliss beyond the grave, but killing yourself outright is a sin.

That's...just how it is for them.

Humble Ones of Ranald will ruin people's lives to the point of ensuring their executions, Chaos accusations, burning at the stake, because they decide to go after anyone who is wealthy or prominent. Plague Wardens are faithful Shallyans who deliberately break with Shallya's will and edicts by actively killing someone with the plague, or burning down homes or more. They struggle to cast their spells like other Shallyans might as a result, but see this breaking of a central Shallyan tenet and subsequent casting of Divine magic difficulties as a test by Shallya.

On and on it goes.

It is how the divergent of the faithful work on Mallus, that's just...how it is.
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oh thanks for clarifying also @Dmol8 sorry for taking your message wrongly, that was my fault entirely I know see the point you where trying to make and I agree with it. Again I am sorry I am a certified DumbAsss
 
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Wanting to clarify something. In Kislev neighter Morr nor Shalaya are very 'popular' as such the main reason for thier lack of medicine is not theological. unless we cound deamons setting them on fire that is.
 
A Bit On Kislev, Salyak, Shallya, and Medicine New
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    • Incorrect, sorry.

    From the Realm of the Ice Queen infobook:

    Kislev and the Empire are ancient allies and know much of each other's culture. However, Kislev simply cannot understand some things, such as the Empire's worship of Morr and Ranald. In Kislev, death is a harsh reality that is never far from anyone's mind. The idea of revering it or pretending there is something beyond it is distasteful to the Kislevites. Likewise, the Kislevites have no time for the idea of venerating those who steal. However, visions and dreams often feature a dark figure in a cowl—who brings death—and his trickster companion. In oblast folklore, they are known respectively as Misery and Misfortune.

    But, recent relations with Frederick, the Hohenzollerns, the Empire, and Arthur, plus concerns over vampires and undead issues led to Kattarin inveigling the Cult of Morr a bit more with Kislev than it otherwise would have been.

    As for Shallya, they have Salyak to replace her, and they like Salyak a lot more. I would never say that Kislev has a 'lack' of medicine, not at all. Don't quite know where you got that, honestly:

    Salyak is the Kislevite God of healing and comfort and bears much in common with Shallya of the Empire. Like Shallya, Salyak is depicted as a woman in white or a white bird, and those of her order are charged to tend to the sick whenever possible. Salyak is more of a mother of mercy than a maiden, however, and intercedes less than her Empire counterpart. Salyak teaches common sense and sound care but will not save those whose time has come.

    Most prayers to Salyak come from young mothers and nursemaids. Salyak knows how to calm a baby to sleep, how to make sure he eats and sleeps well, and watches over him to make sure he grows up to be a great warrior. Salyak also knows how to dull the pain or remove a shattered limb when the boy grows up and comes back from battle. "Salyak's Mercy" is the name of a drink given to dying soldiers; it is a mix of koumiss, mandrake, and hemlock that ensures they die quickly and without pain.

    Temples to Salyak are mostly found in cities, where there is some access to the requirements of her ministrations and some chance of them working. Uniquely for Kislev, Salyak's priests can be either male or female. In general, the males tend to the soldiers, while the females work as nursemaids. Some say the priestesses of Salyak are responsible for raising the next generation of Kislev's warriors and, thus, are vital to the land holding out against Chaos    .

    I'm...really curious where you got 'lack of medicine' for Kislev. If anything, they're very much into medicine. Have far less compunctions about learning about human physiology through corpses and the like, no stigma against dissection like the Empire, and would not consider certain texts necromantic though many Empire Morrites would because of how anatomy-focused and elaborative they'd be. Salyak would be willing to amputate, dissect, vivisect, beat up, poison, stab, and forcibly restrain patients to make them take their medicine. The more medicine, the better, the better the health of the people, the better the next generation of warriors, vital to the land and people, the better the people, the better the Land, the better Kislev is.
     
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    • But yeah, common sense and sound care are what she cares about, and she is a mother of mercy, not a mere maiden. Mother, as in, straight has a poison suicide drink in her arsenal to kill you when you are suffering, something that Shallya would not be as likely to do. Mother, as in tells you it's time to stop fucking around and listen, or I'll slap the shit out of you. It'd be more of a painkiller and numbing as you pass on, rather than drink this and bop off the mortal coil as quickly as possible. Plus, amputations as necessary are literally a named part of her jam, whereas beforehand as noted many Shallyans see amputation of any kind as terrible butchery.

    "But priestess, I do not want to drink this, it is bitter and tastes terrible!"

    "Then die of stomach disease and stop taking up bed space, next patient!"

    "What?! But-,"

    "NEXT!"

    But yeah, imagine a bunch of Russian versions of Dr. House and you're a lot closer to Salyak than Shallya.
     
    torroar said:
    But yeah, common sense and sound care are what she cares about, and she is a mother of mercy, not a mere maiden. Mother, as in, straight has a poison suicide drink in her arsenal to kill you when you are suffering, something that Shallya would not be as likely to do. Mother, as in tells you it's time to stop fucking around and listen, or I'll slap the shit out of you. It'd be more of a painkiller and numbing as you pass on, rather than drink this and bop off the mortal coil as quickly as possible. Plus, amputations as necessary are literally a named part of her jam, whereas beforehand as noted many Shallyans see amputation of any kind as terrible butchery.

    "But priestess, I do not want to drink this, it is bitter and tastes terrible!"

    "Then die of stomach disease and stop taking up bed space, next patient!"

    "What?! But-,"

    "NEXT!"

    But yeah, imagine a bunch of Russian versions of Dr. House and you're a lot closer to Salyak than Shallya.
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    can we like use Ostland's long historical , cultural and political ties to Kislev to import Salyak as a dedicated patron goddess for our yet to be founded medical establishment she seems a way better fit for it than Shallya , like Shallya can keep doing her thing as care givers , running orphanages, feeding the needy , being nurses and operating hospices like they have always done , Salyak will just be involved with the hospitals , medical training/research and the doctors themselves in her aspects as a goddess of medicine
    E: kind of like the divsion between Rya and Esmerelda , one is the goddess of farming while the other is the goddess of the kitchen , sure they overlap but there are different specializations
     
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    torroar said:
    But yeah, common sense and sound care are what she cares about, and she is a mother of mercy, not a mere maiden. Mother, as in, straight has a poison suicide drink in her arsenal to kill you when you are suffering, something that Shallya would not be as likely to do. Mother, as in tells you it's time to stop fucking around and listen, or I'll slap the shit out of you. It'd be more of a painkiller and numbing as you pass on, rather than drink this and bop off the mortal coil as quickly as possible. Plus, amputations as necessary are literally a named part of her jam, whereas beforehand as noted many Shallyans see amputation of any kind as terrible butchery.

    "But priestess, I do not want to drink this, it is bitter and tastes terrible!"

    "Then die of stomach disease and stop taking up bed space, next patient!"

    "What?! But-,"

    "NEXT!"

    But yeah, imagine a bunch of Russian versions of Dr. House and you're a lot closer to Salyak than Shallya.
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    In Kislev, if hand is rotten you cut off hand. If arm is rotten, you cut off arm. But if heart is rotten, you cut off leg this is kislev medical advice.
     
    mmgaballah said:
    can we like use Ostland's long historical , cultural and political ties to Kislev to import Salyak as a dedicated patron goddess for our yet to be founded medical establishment she seems a way better fit for it than Shallya , like Shallya can keep doing her thing as care givers , running orphanages, feeding the needy , being nurses and operating hospices like they have always done , Salyak will just be involved with the hospitals , medical training/research and the doctors themselves in her aspects as a goddess of medicine
    E: kind of like the divsion between Rya and Esmerelda , one is the goddess of farming while the other is the goddess of the kitchen , sure they overlap but there are different specializations
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    I don't think the Shallyans will appreciate being blatantly replaced, though, and Salyak is traditionally a Kislevite deity bound to Kislevite culture, while Shallya dominates in the south.

    Externally importing and modifying theology and religious institutions can be done, but not easily nor reliably and very rarely prettily.
     
    torroar said:
    I'm...really curious where you got 'lack of medicine' for Kislev.
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    huh? oh... yeah I see how one would think that damn.
    Lack in general , as in, global human insuficiencies compared to our world irl. Compared to us, they still lack a lot of medical knowledge. Such is however, not the fault of faith, as it happens in Empire or likely elsewhere, since as you said Saylak is a ok with a lot, and few morrites will make he journey to complain. it diffrent reasons.
    Like , a lot of medical profssionals that would die to harsh things when compared to scholars elsewhere.

    So it DOES comform my theory of Kislev being better at medicine than Empire. Despite the fact that I somehow worded the opposite.

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    Massgamer said:
    I'm sure a lot of Ostlanders would appreciate that kind of mindset, if Shallya wasn't already a thing for them of course.
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    ... at this point I want Salyiak Temple/hospital/medical school in Ostland. Or at least in Kislev quaters of our Capital, so when people start complaining we can punch them

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    Shine said:
    Externally importing and modifying theology and religious institutions can be done, but not easily nor reliably and very rarely prettily.
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    Umm, we had both funded and continusly donated to a lot of Shallayans temples, orphanages, poorhouses and other things. If they start getting upity we can cut down on spending and blame it on them.
    Also would be quite hipocritical to complain about foreign god taking residence given that Freddy married blessed servant of one. Plus all the Kislevites in our province.
    Even if it just Wolfenburg and Salkaten, that already a progress. then throw Artur ant them and tell them to talk.
    The amounts of punching should reach acceptable levels soon enough.
     
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    watcheye456 said:
    Edit 2:

    Umm, we had both funded and continusly donated to a lot of Shallayans temples, orphanages, poorhouses and other things. If they start getting upity we can cut down on spending and blame it on them.
    Also would be quite hipocritical to complain about foreign god taking residence given that Freddy married blessed servant of one. Plus all the Kislevites in our province.
    Even if it just Wolfenburg and Salkaten, that already a progress. then throw Artur ant them and tell them to talk.
    The amounts of punching should reach acceptable levels soon enough.
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    Unpleasant tone towards the pacifistic servants of the goddess of healing aside, if we cut down on spending we're undercutting our own province's medical infrastructure- we're cutting off our nose to spite our face in favour of a deity we, and most of our province, do not honour. Holding medical institutions hostage by threatening their defunding if they don't hew to our political and/ or religious agenda is something I'd like to avoid, and blaming the Shallyans for something we are doing is not going to make us look any better.

    And no, I do not see why it's hypocritical for them to not care overmuch if Fred married a Kislevite, but to suddenly care very much if we try to replace them in one of their patron's primary domains- explicitly in favour of another deity that does not match their ethics code.

    Yes, there are Kislevite in our province. There are also many, many more Imperials- being in the Empire-, which makes that argument… strange. Chapels for Kislevites is fine, and the Shallyans would likely accept collaboration far easier than replacement. This still does not excuse elevating a largely foreign deity to kick the Shallyans to the curb, after all these long decades of good service.

    And finally, Arthur has no particular influence over the Shallyans, as far as I know.
     
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    Shallya is bar none the most beloved Goddess widespread across the Empire, even more than Rhya in plenty of places. You have Ranaldians beating the shit out of criminals for even daring to try and mug, steal from, lie to, or otherwise harm Shallya. Yes, there is much we of the modern day can appreciate about a rough harsh Dr. House, but the sheer gentleness, mercifulness, kindness, comfort of Shallya is SUCH a balm in a brutal world as Mallus in the Empire which is technically a much, much nicer environment and place compared to the sheer severity of Kislev that she is massively beloved. Even by Karl Franz's time, people will often go to Shallya over doctors for most any ailment. They have spells that can literally anti-insanity you, anti-disease, anti-plague, etc. with the power of their love and kind devotion. They are also much more widespread across the entire Old World compared to Salyak. Shallya's main headquarter bastion in the mortal world is in Bretonnia, they are throughout the Empire, the Border Princes, Tilea, Estalia, and have missions in Araby as well. Salyak has Kislev.

    Yes they are not as harshly practical as Salyak, but do not mistake this for them being undesired. They are very much so. They're incredibly important, run the asylums, and more, and trying to uproot and transplant a lesser Cult is unlikely to ever work.

    Shallya may be a maiden, but she is a strong as hell one in terms of divinity and mortal worship.
     
    Zrayz10 said:
    Neat thing I found in my YouTube feed today for Kislev to steal for use in combat.


    View: https://youtu.be/usuLwvFdbFs?si=Rq1JRc6rJhCZJQUn
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    Hmm. In-canon, I think that Kislev already has something akin to mobile wooden forts? I'm not sure if I'm remembering everything correctly, and all the wiki pages have changed thanks to the Total War Warhammer stuff, but there was something with war wagons and being utilized as basically small mobile forts. I mean, Kislev already has pikes and shot at this point, to a certain extent, but also a heavy emphasis on cavalry and horse archery. Sleds, as well, that's not a problem to incorporate. This seems like something that they would already have been using at times, honestly. Some wooden slats and walls with gaps in it, sure. I don't know why, but this really does feel like something they already do? Which makes sense, given it's a Russian tactic thing. I really do swear a very strong deja vu about this sort of tactic when it comes to Kislev.
     
    torroar said:
    trying to uproot and transplant a lesser Cult is unlikely to ever work.
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    Less replacing and more supplement what's already working. Sure Shallayans are beloved and rightfully so, does not meant they refuse help offered?
    As for Kislevite? Faith is still a matter of choise. After all if you parents are mixed might as well pray to both pantheons.
    Both would still stick to what they do best. Simply having a wider choise would or at least could do wonder to Ostland colective well being.
    Sure you want a pretty lady to pamper you when you have a boo boo, but sometimes ya need aunty Poppins to shove the medicine down yar throat.
    Poor houses and orphanages is not something I would see Slyrak Cult intrested in.
    do what yo do best but let others do the same and don't condem people for not chosing you...
    As for our investment in Shalayans? that is a lot of banked favor. Could we not just ask them to give the idea a chance, for old times sake?
    We are already taking a leap of faith with Verenas, given the reputation of some of their parts

    Shine said:
    Yes, there are Kislevite in our province. There are also many, many more Imperials- being in the Empire-, which makes that argument… strange. Chapels for Kislevites is fine, and the Shallyans would likely accept collaboration far easier than replacement. This still does not excuse elevating a largely foreign deity to kick the Shallyans to the curb, after all these long decades of good service.

    And finally, Arthur has no particular influence over the Shallyans, as far as I know.
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    Mhmm, there is a temple district in Kislev city... do we have Kislev temples in Wolfenburg? Or did wi simply gave them permishion to chapel up? Would be funny if Natasha had to lead some sermos, dou to being best ice priestess in town...
    Once the turns are back we gonna have to invest into making Ostland more welcoming to all the Kislevites that chose to leave their nation. regardress of reason.
    Since I doubt any god would not welcome proper worship. thou some rules would have to be set.

    As for Arthur? He's a skilled theologist, mediator and consultant? plus the closest and most loyal asset? Honesly he's more than qulified to keep things cordial bettwen healers.

    Huh. what is up with Gods being territorial? for some it makes sense. Can't be a god of winter in Arabian desert, but healing is universal, and well, there are many ways of healing....
    funny thing for pacifits to get angry... pouting more likely.
     
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    watcheye456 said:
    Less replacing and more supplement what's already working. Sure Shallayans are beloved and rightfully so, does not meant they refuse help offered?
    As for Kislevite? Faith is still a matter of choise. After all if you parents are mixed might as well pray to both pantheons.
    Both would still stick to what they do best. Simply having a wider choise would or at least could do wonder to Ostland colective well being.
    Sure you want a pretty lady to pamper you when you have a boo boo, but sometimes ya need aunty Poppins to shove the medicine down yar throat.
    Poor houses and orphanages is not something I would see Slyrak Cult intrested in.
    do what yo do best but let others do the same and don't condem people for not chosing you...
    As for our investment in Shalayans? that is a lot of banked favor. Could we not just ask them to give the idea a chance, for old times sake?
    We are already taking a leap of faith with Verenas, given the reputation of some of their parts
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    I don't want to, thank you. I will not support this.
     
    Timewarriors said:
    I also don't see any IC reason as to why either Fred or Magnus would even bother.
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    there is one in character reason for accommodating the Kislavan pantheon in Ostland , there is and going be a large population of Kislavites in Ostland from already existing immigrants and all the people who are goanna get exiled or migrate when the civil war is over and they aren't going to magically abandon their gods for the local ones over night or even at all, so naturally temples to their gods will need to be build , like Kislav has temples to empire gods in their cities to accommodate the needs of empire people living there so it's only reasonable and fair we do the same
     
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