Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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Tasoli said:
Again I am arguing for moderation. It is you building strawmen and lumping me no comprimise position. I mean people are voting for Shark Dive already.
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Only because you can't win this one. You have been one of the voices with the most contempt for any diplomacy from the start. I am just considering context. Going no further on ship giving is just an extension. Your victim blaming of the innocent clergy caught up in things also reveals what you really think. Stop doing so, it is a crass thing to victim blame.
 
I've honestly seen this argument of manann several times and I'm tired of it. I'm going to vote to burn the ships give the big-ships to the cult and do the ship mutilation thing (it's not like it matters we have the necklace, a fate point and Frederick is used to pain so it won't do anything) half way.
 
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torroar said:
It could be because I'm the one writing it, author blindness is a thing.
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It's not you, I'm honestly pleasantly surprised at how reasonable she's being, she was well within her rights to be more annoyed. If some questers refuse to listen no matter how many times it's explained that's not on you.

I'm tempted to burn at least one of the Greatships, if only because whilst it gives less Appeasement than Gifting it is somewhat more dramatic in it's message. Overall I'd rather go harder on the Greatship sacrifice than the keelhaul, though I'm still willing to go for the medium option on the latter.

W.r.t. gifting future ships, that just smacks of trying to pay them off, which Maghda already said won't work. Like, losing our current ships works as a sacrifice precisely because A) they have history to them, and b) we're currently using them/need them for defense. Building ships to gift to the cult only loses us some money and some time, which is nowhere near equivalent IMO.
 
I suppose it's not much of an issue to burn the Druchii ships. There's little to gain from keeping them, so might as well make use of them for now.

The most contentious part of the vote are the keelhauling and the Greatships (hey, only two of the three options to appease Manaan and the Cult are harsh, it could be worse). Really, I just want this over with. Let's give them a Greatship or two. No more than that, but even just one, especially considering each one is named after a member of the family, is a pretty good showing of owning up for our...part in this mess. And for the keelhauling...there's something to be said about having it done with the current High Priestess's ship, nevermind the fact it's already the longest and most dangerous. The Hunter or the Maisel would also be acceptable to me, even preferable, I don't want Freddy to die doing this, and since I'm already advocating for giving up Greatships, well, everything will add up in the end.
 
torroar said:
Maghda is explicitly trying to not appease the ones purely demanding money, because she's found rather swiftly that they piss her off a lot. Which happens to be the faction that High Priest Rutger is spearheading.
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And I'd be fine with doing some of the other trials in addition to the weregild.

Issue is that her approach sounds like it might lead to a schism within the Cult itself if not mended. I'm hoping a partial payment might swing some of the masses and the less hardline elements of High Priest Rutger's faction to Maghda's side before tensions solidify.
 
Updated plans:

note all 3 plans give up 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen.' the only difference is keelhauling. And we take the LOS off.
Keelhauling level 3 and giving up 3 greatships
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Five-Tined Hunter: A wolf ship of the Cult of Manann that sails regularly against corsairs, pirates, worshippers of Stromfels, Druchii, and so on. [Dangerous/Appeasement/Approval Gain]
-[] Leave the Light of summer behind. Otherwise it would just heal us while we're being Keelhauled.

Kealhauling level 4
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Marvelous Maisel: An extremely large supply ship, apparently used to confer certain supplies to Sea-Born vessels out on the ocean such as medicines that cannot be sourced out on the ocean. Has not been cleaned at all. [More Dangerous/Major Appeasement/Approval Gain]
-[] Leave the Light of summer behind. Otherwise it would just heal us while we're being Keelhauled.

Kealhauling level 5
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]
-[] Leave the Light of summer behind. Otherwise it would just heal us while we're being Keelhauled.

note all 3 plans give up 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen.' the only difference is keelhauling. And we keep the LOS on.
Keelhauling level 3 and giving up 3 greatships
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Five-Tined Hunter: A wolf ship of the Cult of Manann that sails regularly against corsairs, pirates, worshippers of Stromfels, Druchii, and so on. [Dangerous/Appeasement/Approval Gain]

Kealhauling level 4
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Marvelous Maisel: An extremely large supply ship, apparently used to confer certain supplies to Sea-Born vessels out on the ocean such as medicines that cannot be sourced out on the ocean. Has not been cleaned at all. [More Dangerous/Major Appeasement/Approval Gain]

Kealhauling level 5
Druchii Ships
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]

Actual Sacrifice
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
-[] 'Fist of Frederick, Natasha's Grace, and Oskar's Omen

Keelhauling
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]
 
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torroar said:
Has been asked, yes you can do both if desired.
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Thank you for the clarification, and another thanks for your patience.

In that case, I'll be voting for sacrificing FoF and druchi ships, gifting Oscar, and the harshest keelhauling - simply because of the symbolism of choosing to be keelhauled on a mobile temple. I don't like the danger there, and if there was an easier option including temple-ship, I'd jump on that in a heartbeat, but it is what it is.
Also, just for kek, I think it would be funny if we could add catching and stringing up a live shark upon each one ship we are sacrificing.
 
[] Plan: A gambit to make amends.
[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. [Fist of Frederick ]
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Marvelous Maisel: An extremely large supply ship, apparently used to confer certain supplies to Sea-Born vessels out on the ocean such as medicines that cannot be sourced out on the ocean. Has not been cleaned at all. [More Dangerous/Major Appeasement/Approval Gain]

All three of these.
 
ShyPerson said:
Your victim blaming of the innocent clergy caught up in things also reveals what you really think. Stop doing so, it is a crass thing to victim blame.
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I don't blame them for holder of the shore. But I am not willing to be victim of their internal politics either. Moderation is needed because we don't want a repeat of Jung and it is very possible at higher options.
 
I support going more heavy into the keelhauling as we have the light of summer, a fate point plus the fact that people are actually meant to survive it. If we go with the harder options ewe can not only shock the cult into leaving us be but have a better chance to get on Manann's good side. The gods like sacrifice.
Also I believe that we can sacrifice 2-3 greatships and burn the druchii ships.
 
Karnax626 said:
W.r.t. gifting future ships, that just smacks of trying to pay them off, which Maghda already said won't work. Like, losing our current ships works as a sacrifice precisely because A) they have history to them, and b) we're currently using them/need them for defense. Building ships to gift to the cult only loses us some money and some time, which is nowhere near equivalent IMO.
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Do you not think that doing both (as in my plan, which gifts two and builds five) would not be greater than just the one? It has the practical effect of making the cult of manaan stronger, helping build back what they lost from thus entire debacle.

Krain said:
Is there any plan that gives up 2 ships instead of 3?
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Yep. Mine.

[] Plan: Make It Right, Across the Board
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] Gift two (2) of the current Greatships. Further pledge that the next five (5) greatships constructed by Ostland will be given to the Cult of Manaan. First new constructed Greatship to be given within five years; no timeline on the others.
[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] Marvelous Maisel: An extremely large supply ship, apparently used to confer certain supplies to Sea-Born vessels out on the ocean such as medicines that cannot be sourced out on the ocean. Has not been cleaned at all. [More Dangerous/Major Appeasement/Approval Gain]
 
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I am curious how Freddy would do in a shark diving since he has never had to fight enemies underwater before, certainly not with his only weapon as a clam shell knife. Odds are way to stacked against him in that situation.

So glad Nat was around just to make sure none of us even entertained the option. :D
 
Tasoli said:
I don't blame them for holder of the shore. But I am not willing to be victim of their internal politics either. Moderation is needed because we don't want a repeat of Jung and it is very possible at higher options.
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Tasoli said:
Yeah very innocent those was. Like the hadn't sunk some of our fleet already.
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You know, some people read this thread. And remember older posts from other users.
 
People in power have to make compromises and concessions all the time. And these Warhammer cults seem to have Roman cult-like influence, which was a lot. This seems realistic to me.

It's like some people on this site only read powerwank fics or something.
 
Another thing, before I get off thread so I don't get trapped here seeing as I've got a few other things to do:

There's a reason I explicitly pointed out Salkalten being a point of holy wrath in defense of the people by Manann in my angry post a short while ago. And why I've characterized Maghda as caring deeply for the Faithful of Manann explicitly in these past two updates, focusing explicitly on 'how can we make things better for them/reassure them'. Because she really cares about them! And, like, yes, the Greatships would not be under Ostland control, but my god, why would you think she would want to explicitly harm the Faithful of Ostland. The point is for Frederick to make the sacrifice because of the pride and money put in them, not anyone else. Otherwise, she would have been like 'hey, yeah, let's do some penance for the wife and the ogre and all the Greatswords and so on and so forth'. The punishment is for Frederick, no one else's. She also sneered on the tendency for there to be collateral damage when the Sigmarites go a-bashing. So why...why...why...would you think she'd accept causing collateral damage to Manann's Faithful in Ostland in the course of this?

It was supposed to come up organically next update, as the levels of appeasement could improve Maghda's level of authority amongst the Cult, meaning she could allocate more funds and effort to protecting the holy site of Salkalten's temple or things like that, but I didn't want to explicitly spell that out here, because its supposed to be a personal vote of thought not something that metagames on the potential offerings afterwards.

She would never, ever, ever countenance an act that would cause more harm to Ostland's faithful to the Cult, especially when she's made it clear how this is supposed to help them spiritually and mentally so that they can go out and do stuff physically.

Just...try to consider the subtext and extrapolate, please? I'm sorry if it was too obscure, if it was, that's on me, but...just...yeah.
 
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