@Tasoli
I am trying to restain the thread goin overboard. No more than 2 ships no more than middle option. This make sense. More than that is pure insanity.
You are not doing that. You are complaining about how this is unfair and we shouldn't have to do anything.

That line of "argument" has happened before and all it did was cause depression, anger, and misery, and we were given long, detailed, reasonable explanations as to why this was happening.
 
Only when it's time to fuck US over apparently otherwise when it's time to help against chaos or druchii we can fuck right off apparently. Because I Don't know you but i never saw a "mananan bonus" during raiding season.
I mean Chaos helps the Norscans and the Druchii have their own seagod so I imagine it mostly just evens out?

What you're asking is that we forgo the bonus we do get, which will just end up fucking us.
 
@ninjafish I understand you are worried about giving too much, but you have to understand that its needed for overall health from province and avoid making enemies where we can. You are certainly allowed to disagree with others, but could you please tone down the hostility a little and just disagree politely?
 
Only when it's time to fuck US over apparently otherwise when it's time to help against chaos or druchii we can fuck right off apparently. Because I Don't know you but i never saw a "mananan bonus" during raiding season.
Its called "a giant storm didn't come out of nowhere and sank your entire fleet."
edit: Or "A giant sea monster didn't come out of nowhere and ate your entire fleet."
Or "All of your ships didn't suddenly decide to not float."
Or "Salkalten didn't all of a sudden fall into the ocean."
I could go on...

Even better how about "A tidal wave didn't suddenly form and wipe out your entire coast and a good way inland."
 
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I understand your frustration there (truth be told I wasn't happy that he didn't just get assassinated before he caused that big a mess, IIRC that was even a big reason why I wanted our son to marry who he did), but I don't think this can really be compared?
Unlike that psychopathic bastard, this lady is actually trying to negotiate with us to try and come to an agreement that doesn't end up with our family wanting to kill her whole religion if they'd ever be in a position to do so.

Yeah and? Magnus and the supreme were pretty sane too.

Didn't stop jung... And we already know there is atleast one member of the clergy that would love to see us dead.
 
Someone give me an argument as to why we shouldn't go to the extreme in all options to appease Mannan?
Giving away all of our greatships cripples our navy and leaves us open to invasion and raiding, potentially causing massive economic damage and getting many, many Ostlanders killed or worse, captured by Druchii.

Then we'll bring in pirates make a new naval organization thats secular.
Pirates are not secular, they worship Stromfels.
 
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Then we'll bring in pirates make a new naval organization thats secular.
I can't tell if you're trolling, or just lack reading comprehension because multiple people have explained why that's unfeasible at best and impossible at worst.


Yeah very innocent those was. Like the hadn't sunk some of our fleet already.


I am trying to restain the thread goin overboard. No more than 2 ships no more than middle option. This make sense. More than that is pure insanity.
So I suppose we're going to be kicking in the Grand Theologist's shins in next? If we're going to lump entire religious organizations in with their most extreme and outright heretical sects.
 
I wonder, if Freddy had reacted to some of his Witch Hunters plotting (and eventually trying) to kill him and subsequently killed half of all the priests of Sigmar in Ostland, would people also be super surprised and mad that the Grand Theogonist would have more than a small problem with that and we'd have to make amends or face severe consequences? Honestly this feels like people being mad because they didn't realize that Manann was also a really important god, and I guess are refusing to read or understand the QM's repeated explanations that no, really, he really is. And also failing to grasp that sometimes the cults are going to have extremist splinter factions who will do bad things, that the cults themselves are strongly opposed to. If you react to those splinter factions with a mass purge that kills a whole bunch of innocent priests of that cult, you should expect major blowback. This has been litigated and explained a dozen times now at least.
 
...There's a part of me...That wants to offer the very reason we got so into ships in the first place.
The right to the third fleet of the Empire, the Stipend that goes alongside it, Everything.
...
But I feel like ironically, the Marien types might actually DISLIKE that. Because it's closing the door to Ostland. Less coin for their purses, long-term.
...Perhaps a temporary verison, where the benefits are funneled to the Cult, until Frederick dies, or the weregild is paid off.
Not an option Magda likes, I'm sure, but for once the Marienburgers I think would kind of have a point.

But looking at the options we have presented...
Burn the Druchii ships for Mannan
Giving...One, maybe Two GreatShips to Mannan (Hey, they might not be ours, but they can still serve the Empire, and hopefully such bonds can ensure the rivers of Ostland can one day be opened without fear to Mannan's cult.)
And Keelhaul on either Five-Tined Hunter or The Rambler, for me personally.
 
That is not sacrifice. Not here an now when we need to calm the masses down. What is the point doing that after we already calmed them down and it will not calm them down if our others is not enough. So pointless money sink.

Hard disagree. We are sacrificing the ability to make future greatships for ourselves until we have made five for Manaan. Besides which, the plan also includes keelhauling and druchii ship burning for mollifying people right now.

And the point is to go beyond just getting to neutral with Manaan, and instead gain his favour. Which is ludicrously valuable, given that he's apparently already screwing up our entire maritime industry.

If you're going to argue against my plan, please consider the entire plan together when you do so.
 
Right now it's just the cult and the priests but i can guarantee you that if we don't appease manaan in someway that he will make his displeasure known in time. The cult is just showing their displeasure first.

If manaan wants to start messing with our attempts to defend our province and push back chaos then I would be willing to work with the cult's of Sigmar and Ulric, to knock them down a bit.

Maybe get such a jackass god proscribed.
 
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Literally not what I said. Don't put words to my mouth. I said no more than middle option no more than 2 ships. Rather than destruction of our fleet and suicide.

You're also thinking Manaan won't be pulling out the guns himself and that is all the naughty clergy wanting to screw over the unfarily wronged players behind their screens. And refuse to accept it when the story says Manaan will pull out the big guns to your face.
 
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So I suppose we're going to be kicking in the Grand Theologist's shins in next? If we're going to lump entire religious organizations in with their most extreme and outright heretical sects.
No but I am perfecty willing to go after any heretic Sigmar priest that burns down our barracks with soldiers inside.
 
I'll say this one last time.

It's not about Manann sending a storm to destroy your ships. That is a potential thing, but not the main thing. The main thing is the fear of all the faithful on the coasts and rivers of his potential wrath. It's these people, who do your fishing, you do your naval trading, who could come to or leave Ostland by boat, that are the main thing. And their fear of that wrath will, as I have stated previously in a much larger and angrier post than this one, will drive them to run from the waters. Your trade will dry up, because people will be afraid and will not come to Ostland, or set sail from Ostland. Your fishing boats will not sail. Your coastal settlements will wither and die, and it won't matter how many Greatships you try to build, the Cult won't bless them forth from the docks, and the crews won't crew them. Because they are afraid of pissing off Manann. That is what Maghda is trying to get going here. For all affected peoples across Ostland, and further beyond who care, to see and think and say 'Ah, Manann has been appeased, thus we can and should sail our boats and fish our fish and so on and so forth'.

The People. Of. Ostland's. Coasts. And. Rivers. Are. Afraid. Of. Manann. They also worship him, because fearing and respecting him is literally the whole deal of the faith, placating him and very occasionally getting spiffy rewards. Spitting on their faith, stomping on it and saying 'it doesn't matter, shut the fuck up about Manann it doesn't matter his desires don't matter' will quite simply not work.

And I can only take anyone advocating for worship of Stromfels, of whom worship of is forbidden on pain of DEATH across the entire Empire, something that Magnus the Pious and every Elector Count and every other Religion agrees on, as arguing in bad faith. And pirates either worship Stromfels, or Manann. The only secular pirates are dwarfs, and even then they pay heed to Morgrim, and are intensely superstitious. Frederick would have to turn his sword on his own head.

Maghda has strongly suggested not going for the most dangerous of them all - the shark dive being 9/10 fatality rate, has said-without-saying that she's really expecting Frederick to benefit from the healing of either the Light of Summer or Adira's magic healing, and that she's trying to keep the waters safe from any major other dangers in Keelhauling. She had explicitly refused to try and tear out the treasury of Ostland, and instead has offered up an opportunity with things that are far more in line with the actual faith, as in 'sacrificing storied ships to Manann are consistently a well-favored sacrifice' as per canon materials, while knowing that doing so is in fact exceedingly cheaper for Ostland's treasury in the long run rather than the insane fines being demanded by others in the Cult. She has explicitly stated she doesn't want this to get into a fight between the Cult and Ostland, and wants this to be concluded swiftly so that the angrier and most violent elements of the Cult quiet the hell down with Frederick definitely still alive and capable of acting and doing things at the end. She did not yell at Frederick out in the open, in front of everyone, and she deliberately sent her bodyguards away so that no one would see the two of them rather casually and frankly discussing matters, accepting the failures of her predecessor and the Cult while frankly pointing out that every Cult has had problems - and that she's still working hard to solve hers. She has ruled out the other methods of Penance that Frederick quite simply could not do, and has come damn near close to outright saying 'hey, man, let's try to keep you as safe as possible and not dead, huh?' without actually saying it.

It could be because I'm the one writing it, author blindness is a thing. But acting like she's demanding Frederick bend over while she pegs him with a narwhal horn strap-on instead of trying to be as straightforward and swift as possible about this matter so that the faithful of Ostland can be reassured so as to bring no harm to Ostland's economy and people, the mobs of Marienburg placated so they won't bother Frederick anymore, and Frederick able to continue on with his life without having to deal with any of this again, possibly even gain an ally against House Rutger while within Marienburg though she doesn't yet know that Frederick is an enemy of House Rutger, I just...I don't see it. I really don't.
 
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I'm thinking give the Druuchi ships, two of our ships and the medium keelhaul. Honestly I admit I was very much wrong in my assumption that sending in the Witch Hunters would've been an expected response.

Still doing any form of keelhauling is already a massive give and so what if part of the cult wants us dead so do a bunch of other people. I'm not on board with trying to get Maanans favour and I admit to making a mistake but mostly in its severity aside from that I say they can sit and spin.

Edit: So by word of QM she's trying to be reasonable and that's great so how about we don't try to jump through every hoop when we don't need to?
 
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