Given their superior experience they'd do better in their hands than ours when it comes to keeping our people safe.
Which at the end of the day is what's important we can build more, but as noted in the update they're no fucking use sitting in docks because the people manning them are too terrified to go to sea because god may smack them with a lightening bolt!

I'd rather have them on water under Mannan's flag than rotting away and I want the capacity to properly build new ones and get em out to sea!
 
The Head of the Manaanite Cult is not going to help us out in a Trade War. At most she'd run herd on those within the Cult who try and overstep their reach, but she's not going to touch the nobles without a damn good reason.
 
The Head of the Manaanite Cult is not going to help us out in a Trade War. At most she'd run herd on those within the Cult who try and overstep their reach, but she's not going to touch the nobles without a damn good reason.
I am alright if she were to keep her cult under control and out of hands of robber barons of Marineburg. I mean already they are trying to use it to gut our treasury.
 
Maghda is quite the reasonable person for all the trouble we caused the cult of Manaan. Anyways to truly solidify her position and gain an ally against the 3 merchant houses I think the maximum keehaul option should be something we try. It'll give us the most boons and we're well-suited to surviving it and honestly if there is a chance at losing the Light of Summer I want us going for the option that gives us the maximum rewards for it. On the Greatships I'm in agreement with the majority of the thread on donating Frederick's Fist and Oskar's Omen...maybe even a third to help free up dock space for more wolf ships. Druchii ships we might as well burn since we haven't been able to do much with them so far. Overall a great update that relieved me that the Cult isn't wholly under the sway of the merchants of Marienburg.
 
The Head of the Manaanite Cult is not going to help us out in a Trade War. At most she'd run herd on those within the Cult who try and overstep their reach, but she's not going to touch the nobles without a damn good reason.
Why wouldn't she?
Torroar even brought up she doesn't like that group.
We're natural allies here - heck if anything she'd likely be pissed that they're playing silly games when they're supposed to be looking after their fellow people.

All we need to do, is give her sufficient prestige that she can wreck these guys, and by all accounts she should gleefully join in.
 
Concept: we give them our greatships, and then offer to get keelhauled under one of them
 
ALright after reading the follow up by torroar, I can understand the need to appease the sea folks.

I still Don't feel good about it; but not because i Don't see the necessity.
I feel… ambushed by the world building.
I DON'T remember mananan's follower being given such power and importance before, apart from being the god of sailors, and with some cultural influence in salkaten, we never saw (as I remember) this level of… everything.

During the raiding season, the briefs about the politics of the sea of claws, we heard about the respective powers of marienburg, Nordland, kislev, even traders from farther afield. During our economic efforts, we heard about our Neighbors, the grip of talabeclanders on trade, the games of the moot, the industrial powerhouse of nuln,... During our temple building we discovered the importance and rivalry between the churches of sigmar and ulric, and the lesser influence of the other cults.

And now, seemingly from the ether, we discover that intertwined within each of those sphere is a massive and omnipresent political, cultural, religious, military and economic entity that is the cult of mananan, and that it can utterly destroy us if we Don't appease it.

I mean… I feel that things would be different if such an actor existed… the rivalries of the north fleets and politics there should (in my opinion) play VERY differnetly, just with the existance of such an influential third party. How could talabec not be a differnet place if the middlemen of all river trade belonged to mananan?
How could the cult with its massive importance to the Economy and military of the empire NOT have a seat at the elector meet, or a vote, even several! to elect the emperor?

I just feel ambushed, by this massive hydra that is this cult when i thought it a common gecko.
 
I know no-one will agree with me, but I will reiterate:
Sacrificing FoF is neither wastfull and voluntarily burning up the ship with Freddy's name would be a powerful symbol, and, when you get down to it, that is what all this is: symbolism.
Y'all, and excuse me if I'm pegging you wrong, I can only do the best extrapolation that I can, seem to view sacrificing a greatship as a waste - which is very capitalist, that is to say Marienburger, way of looking at things.
But, the point of sacrifice is to, yanno, actually voluntarily lose something of value.
This is not a wholly materialistic universe, so why are you treating it as if it were?
This is not 21st-century earth, the current ideals and values are not wholly, or even in cases at all, applicable.
This is a grim, dark, dangerous world, where monsters and immortals walk the earth and gods make their will known. Gests and symbols and the occult have real power here.
 
I have never been more disappointed that a voting option was not there.

I wanted to 1v1 that shark! I was so hype and then Nat had to go and crush my dreams like that...

One day we'll 1v1 a shark, just you wait! And then we'll skin it and make a cool pair of boots or something. Maybe a nice wallet...
 
Maghda wouldn't need to outright actively side with us against the merchants, but by strengthening her position we could allowe her to weaken their power on her own, helping us indirectly. She could also stop them from using the Cult of Manann against us as well.
 
It's a drop in personal power and having them under our personal command is preferable over having to beg the cult of we really need them
Oh no a drop to our personal power we can replace in three years, and we will not have to beg them to protect our coastlines. My its almost like the GM's been repeating they're not going anywhere they're going to keeping doing what they were doing before just flying different flags!

The Head of the Manaanite Cult is not going to help us out in a Trade War. At most she'd run herd on those within the Cult who try and overstep their reach, but she's not going to touch the nobles without a damn good reason.
Given the power of the mannanite priests...that's a huge deal!

To say nothing of if we find an actual reason for her to either want to under cut them or reason to undercut them.

And of course the risk of keeping her as an actual freaking enemy with reason to support them!

"Mannan's wrath and his boons are great, the former is easier to acquire."

Hint hint!

I just feel ambushed, by this massive hydra that is this cult when i thought it a common gecko.
How? Even just common sense should tell you god of the sea is a big deal.

I have never been more disappointed that a voting option was not there.

I wanted to 1v1 that shark! I was so hype and then Nat had to go and crush my dreams like that...

One day we'll 1v1 a shark, just you wait! And then we'll skin it and make a cool pair of boots or something. Maybe a nice wallet...
I am with you 100% my only criticism of this update is that there is no shark fight option!
 
Concept: we give them our greatships, and then offer to get keelhauled under one of them
Aaaand there it is. Somebody pick that phone because I called it.

*Thows his hands up*

I would like to point to this post specifically from now on when people say thread is reasonable and sane in this issue and I am the problemetic one.
 
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I know no-one will agree with me, but I will reiterate:
Sacrificing FoF is neither wastfull and voluntarily burning up the ship with Freddy's name would be a powerful symbol, and, when you get down to it, that is what all this is: symbolism.
Y'all, and excuse me if I'm pegging you wrong, I can only do the best extrapolation that I can, seem to view sacrificing a greatship as a waste - which is very capitalist, that is to say Marienburger, way of looking at things.
But, the point of sacrifice is to, yanno, actually voluntarily lose something of value.
This is not a wholly materialistic universe, so why are you treating it as if it were?
This is not 21st-century earth, the current ideals and values are not wholly, or even in cases at all, applicable.
This is a grim, dark, dangerous world, where monsters and immortals walk the earth and gods make their will known. Gests and symbols and the occult have real power here.
The point of the greatships are to protect people.
Better to give them to Maghda here and have her help keep people safe, while also incidentally giving her more influence in the Cult so that she can help us fight the real assholes around who we want to pay for all the shit they're trying.
 
How could the cult with its massive importance to the Economy and military of the empire NOT have a seat at the elector meet, or a vote, even several! to elect the emperor
Because they are incredibly apolitical in comparison to how much political soft power they should have, this is why we don't really have to worry too much about the Cult trying to make Frederick subordinate to their will.
 
question. Would the Manaanites view Frederick more positively if he does not wear the Light of Summer? Or would it be the same if he did wear it?
 
Aaaand there it is. Somebody pick that phone because I called it.

*Thows his hands up*

I would like to point to this post specifically from now on when people say thread is reasonable and sane in this issue and I am the problametic one.

Nobody voted for that option yet. Heck, it's not even a vote. So please chill, you're not doing your position any favor by acting and reacting like this.
 
I have never been more disappointed that a voting option was not there.

I wanted to 1v1 that shark! I was so hype and then Nat had to go and crush my dreams like that...

One day we'll 1v1 a shark, just you wait! And then we'll skin it and make a cool pair of boots or something. Maybe a nice wallet...
we could refuse kneehalling.... and insist on shark fight as it said in update....

[] Refuse the Keelhauling: Perhaps if you give them a rather significant amount of ships, or perhaps maybe you could renegotiate with Natasha about the shark dive...? (Write-In)
 
Because they are incredibly apolitical in comparison to how much political soft power they should have, this is why we don't really have to worry too much about the Cult trying to make Frederick subordinate to their will. They are one of the least political cults in the empire.
A situation all people generally try to maintain, cause as shown even just them being dissapproving can completely knacker anyone with a coastline.

we could refuse kneehalling.... and insist on shark fight as it said in update....
I want to fight a shark, burn its body on the Druchhi ships, mount one's head on a Great ship then get Keerhauled!

For good measure.
 
question. Would the Manaanites view Frederick more positively if he does not wear the Light of Summer? Or would it be the same if he did wear it?
They would view it as cowardly because losing shiny baubles during keelhauling is a explicit risk and recommended since its seen as a sacrifice. Taking it off would be seen as Freddy too afraid of losing a gift.
 
We have fought bloodthirsters, huge ents and even defeated Orion while buck naked what's a shark compared to that?

Taking it off would be seen as Freddy too afraid of losing a gift.
If we don't wear it is because we are too afraid of losing it. It won't invalidate the keelhauling since it is still keelhauling but it would probably not net as much favor
 
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Okay, to those people who are talking about greatships and marienburg making copies...

Do you think Marienburg is somehow incapable of making greatships? Do you think with all their knowledge of ships if they consider it worth it they can't design their own and build them?

Currently on 4066
 
Do you not think that doing both (as in my plan, which gifts two and builds five) would not be greater than just the one? It has the practical effect of making the cult of manaan stronger, helping build back what they lost from thus entire debacle.
I'd rather go harder on gifting our current stock then keep any new ships we build, just to guarantee Manaan is appeased.
I am alright if she were to keep her cult under control and out of hands of robber barons of Marineburg. I mean already they are trying to use it to gut our treasury.
But the three aren't using the cult to come after us. They're using their own trade routes/resources. If they were actively using the priesthood to come after us Maghda would've already come down on them like a sack of bricks.
Why wouldn't she?
Torroar even brought up she doesn't like that group.
We're natural allies here - heck if anything she'd likely be pissed that they're playing silly games when they're supposed to be looking after their fellow people.

All we need to do, is give her sufficient prestige that she can wreck these guys, and by all accounts she should gleefully join in.
Again, that's the specific subset of the Cult that she feels is overly fond of the monetary side of things. Whilst their might be a bit of overlap, they're still separate from the nobles we're in a Trade War with.
 
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