Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism
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Lord of Gifts
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And even if he didn't we already have one temporary threadban attached to it, let's not add anymore to the pile.
So you're saying that people don't owe anyone anything for the actions of loosely controlled fanatics killing people? Great I agree, the Manannites don't owe anyone anything for their sub-cult going on a rampage and trying to shutdown all shipping and Freddy doesn't owe the Manannites anything for cutting the witch hunters loose to carpet bomb the local Manannites to get rid of said sub-cult.
Look if you think prestige is pointless, fine. But it exists and we have lots. It means Freddy is a bad ass who has done impressive shit like killing a bloodthirster in hand to hand and people know about this and other bad ass shit Freddy did. You know who lacks any of Freddy's massive prestige score? This new religious matriarch who is shaking us down.
If a personal in with every single dwarf king and being 11/10 rep with some of the dwarf factions isn't enough for you to see that seriously bad shit would happen to the leadership of the cult if Freddy died I don't know what to say.
Likewise Freddy is well known to several high ranking elves, the Everqueen included. With that said they like Freddy a lot less so they are less likely to take any sort of direct action like the dwarves might. On the other hand, they just need to stop trading with everyone involved for a short period or esoteric other intrigue push. On the other hand getting an arrow though the head from a Waystalker from the wood elves is possible too.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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Kinda, many of the empire's problems are the result of having far too many freaking trees. Sustained effort over the course of its history would have made a rather considerable dent in them, indeed have around Reikland. The other half of the empire's bigger issues I attribute to the Black Death causing a huge backslide politically and culturally. ****ing Skaven.
Regardless my understanding is that the majority Brettonia's plains used to be forests created by the Breton doing just that over the course of at least 1000 years, mind you I'll freely admit in this case I can't bloody find the thing that was cited to me as evidence!
I think it was in Knights of the Grail, but now I'm angry (at myself) and am going to keep looking for it.
...yeah except for a key difference mate one which should be immidialty obvious.
Magdha did not order the Holders of the Shore to go bananas and immediately tried to make recompense by killing all of them.
Freddy 100% ordered the Witch Hunters (the Sigmarite Holders of the Shore in effect) to go and kill everyone.
Yes the Mannaites don't actually owe anyone for their sub cult going on a rampage since ya know they were the prime targets, and suffered the most casulties out of everyone as a result of their actions and again did not order it or have any direct culpability in the Holders actions...where as Freddy is in charge of letting the Witch Hunters do their thing.
Like if it was the result of the Grand Thelogenist or whatever then this would be an entirely different manner, but unfortunately it isn't. The Neuremberg defence in this instance goes both ways, just because Freddy "only gave the order" doesn't mean he is shielded from the consequences as a result of having friends in high places.
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Chlof
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I'm fairly sure if Frederick got himself killed while atoning for what's essentially a Grudge the dwarves would do nothing but mourn his death.
Restalaan
What do you mean i am not a real cowboy?
The Matriach is also doing everything she can to ensure we actually live the process by finding loopholes such as the summer of light being considered a jewelry that we can bring along for the process.
If we actually died, that's that but at the very least, it solves the Manaan issue and our ships can go back to business as well as resuming trade.
If we actually died, that's that but at the very least, it solves the Manaan issue and our ships can go back to business as well as resuming trade.
Ok you seem to be painting Magdha as having done no wrong, this may be the case but her organisation did. Claiming that killing off the cultists that she's duty bound to kill off somehow exonerates the cult of Maanan from any wrong doing is a pretty big fallacy. The witch hunters weren't let of the leash without provocation so please stop framing it as though we went after the poor innocent Maanites who didn't just have an empire wide conspiracy set all of the shipping aflame.
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Lord of Gifts
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But that is explicitly what we did? We sicked them on innocent priests on the off chance they were part of an insane group of fanatics. The order at large had absolutely no part in the attack and were just as dogmatic about rooting out the Holders as they could be expected to be.
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Hmm...Yeah I just took a look at the currently made plans and I'm cool with the plans pertaining to giving up only 3 of our Greatships.
I mean it would have been better to just give them three of our oldest Greatships, but giving all of them? No way hombre.
I'm cool with giving up just 2 or even 3, but all of them? That would leave us without our heaviest hitting ships defending our coasts. That doesn't sit well with me.
I mean it would have been better to just give them three of our oldest Greatships, but giving all of them? No way hombre.
I'm cool with giving up just 2 or even 3, but all of them? That would leave us without our heaviest hitting ships defending our coasts. That doesn't sit well with me.
We had no idea they were innocent and every reason to believe that the cult was compromised. I don't see anyway to convince you that there was a legitimate threat or reason so I won't try to all I ask is that you don't claim that the cult of Maanan is utterly blameless in this fiasco.
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I remember it being us sending the witch hunters to kill the terrorists, and not sending the witch hunters specifically to kill innocents. Sadly innocents were caught up in the purge, but the order was not to kill innocents. I don't recall freddy ever meeting the Witch Hunter leader and saying "Kill all Mannan worshipers".
I'm not defending anything, but I think you're using an extreme to fight another extreme here.
So no one mentioned the gianormous lighthouse that was supposed to be a temple of Manann in the largest port of the province and under construction when the heretics sabotaged everything.
Fuck it, find another god of the sea to dedicate it to
It's not like we've been shoving gold into it forever or anything
Fuck it, find another god of the sea to dedicate it to
It's not like we've been shoving gold into it forever or anything
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Lord of Gifts
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Yes they were collateral but that doesn't make it better. It means we don't even have enough fo a leash on our own witch hunters to confident say we can control them when given orders or to guarantee they actually know what they're doing and not simply the lowest common denominator. Either way we look like a fool.
Did you not read the update in which the Matraich explicly mentions it and how it will help relations once its completed?
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Restalaan
What do you mean i am not a real cowboy?
That isn't enough and no more different than monetary solving method.
Doomed Wombat
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We did go after innocent mannanites that had nothing to do with the old world sized conspiracy that set everyone's ships on fire, that's why Magdha is pissed. Instead of letting the experts handle it we unleashed wild eyed loons, and I shouldn't have to go back to the torroar post as to why a single mess up no matter the scale suddenly makes an organisation not the best at their job.
Furthermore she herself in this last update admitted the mannanites under her predecessor fucked up! She's able to admit mistakes that are not even her fault, she wasn't even land at that point, it should not be so hard to do when you are directly responsible for it.
However yes it doesn't exonerate them, hence why she's been trying to fix this and why she's been riding herd on them to fix their fuck up.
How about the fact that the holders of the shore tried to kill all of them.
How about the fact we knew before the decision came that Magdha had taken charge, done her drowning and was begging authorities to please let her get her people there and not do anything rash.
Then please stop trying to dodge the very real blame Freddy deserves as well. Ya'll got what you want the holders were killed in a manner that only Magdha herself managed congrats. Difference is she had the experts on hand to do that and not do the collateral damage, Freddy didn't. This is the consequence, one we can turn from a punishment into a strength.
...dude the Holders of the Shore are explicitly the Witch Hunter level fanatics of the Mananites...I don't like Sigmar for example, but I wouldn't call for them all to be killed due to the actions of his most extreme loonies, especially when Mannan itself has not done something wrong for a change.
Nor am I sure what your point is? We did an action to find out who the loonies in every cult are, they've all got their bananas people.
Well it actually makes the issue worse. The only other god of the sea worth more than a brief mention in the old world being Stromfell who makes Mannan look like Shallya by comparison.
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My response is that the punishment shouldn't be as severe when he was betrayed by a clergy who's god he was honouring, if you're building a cathedral for a god and his preists start destroying everything the cult should take their deaths as penance for stopping the creation of a monument to Manann those uncorrupted as well because it was not stopped
Manann is hardcore like that
Hell if you had soldiers kill them instead of sigmarite cultists Manann would've blessed you most likely
This is 10% actual penance to Manann 90% mortal politics
And 100% bullshit
Frederick is the focus of this event instead of the cults failings because they don't want them addressed the cult is pulling a woe is me card after having pissed in everyone's cereal
And the heretic cult was to coordinated to be happenstance no matter what she says, yes it wasn't druchi but chaos most likely and if she has yet to find the cause it's still there
Mention the whole fiasco with dickface who tried to light us on fire and ended up being a demon we killed later so she can get off her ass and keep looking
And laugh in her face if she says she got them all
Manann is hardcore like that
Hell if you had soldiers kill them instead of sigmarite cultists Manann would've blessed you most likely
This is 10% actual penance to Manann 90% mortal politics
And 100% bullshit
Frederick is the focus of this event instead of the cults failings because they don't want them addressed the cult is pulling a woe is me card after having pissed in everyone's cereal
And the heretic cult was to coordinated to be happenstance no matter what she says, yes it wasn't druchi but chaos most likely and if she has yet to find the cause it's still there
Mention the whole fiasco with dickface who tried to light us on fire and ended up being a demon we killed later so she can get off her ass and keep looking
And laugh in her face if she says she got them all
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Lord of Gifts
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No, they shouldn't, becuase no pissdick fucking lighthouse is worth actual human lives. Especially not useful highly skilled highly trained and extremely expensive lives.
Doomed Wombat
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...holy shit are you advocating that the entire cult of mannan should commit ritual suicide or just the Ostland branch?
Mother of mercy
Whatever you are you're just damn wrong
We only started building it two years after the holders of the shore happened, they didn't interrupt anything beyond the normal sacrilege they committed by burning the ships, killing the sailors and slaughtering the actual priests of Mannan.
So I don't know what you're misremembering, but perhaps go back and have another read.
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Restalaan
What do you mean i am not a real cowboy?
It doesn't work that way when they themselves requested that we wait for them to handle the issue and the head already going out to drown the cults responsible personally.
Then we unleashed the witch hunters (To myself, I also didn't expect them to just straight up murder everyone and expected them to investigate them properly like what they did last time to the nurgle plot.) and wiped all Manaan holders themselves. It would be no different if we had ordered normal soldiers to do it because at the end, if the rolls are to be kept, we would've wiped them all out to a man. Only with worse repurcussion and hit to our rep.
We basically solved the problem by burning the whole house down in order to kill a flea and people are pissed because some of the people in that house was actually innocent as well which we'll never find out now.
A temple dedicated to Manaan, in turn for all of his piety and faithful that are dead, isn't enough for what we did.
Innocent? Did you say innocent or am I imagining it? How can you be sure that they were innocent priests and not hidden terrorists, that they didn't support terrorists or at least didn't sympathize with them or weren't hidden Chaos cultists at all? And as I said earlier, the influence of Chaos in this story is obvious.
Did our witch hunters come and report that they were killing innocent people? No, they were killing crazy cultists protecting innocent people and the opposite is not provable. So, as a faithful Sigmarite who does his duty to God and men, we must wonder, in response to such accusations, if the filth has spread further? What if the hidden cultists are the highest ecclesiastical ranks of Maan, that in preparation for a new invasion of Chaos, first leaving the coasts of many countries virtually defenseless, and then actively trying to destroy Count , a well-known hero of the Empire, the faithful Sigmarite, do I alone find this suspicious?
Yes and this whole cult fight with its radicals seems suspicious, I'm sure they are actually killing innocent people while the terrorists lay low waiting for another opportunity to strike. Can they prove that the people they kill are really cultists? I believe that before it's too late we should ask the Great Theogonist for support before it goes too far.)
I'm especially surprised that in order to get forgiveness from Maan, whose anger I never saw any sign of, we have to undermine our defenses by giving them our ships. If that's not sabotage, I don't know what is.
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Well...I can actually understand why a lot of people are not satisfied with what we have to do, but is is absolutely necessary if we don't want to get metaphorically fucked over in the ass by a metaphorical rusty steel bar wrapped in barbed wire.
I mean yeah it's a damn shame that Freddy has to give up most of his Greatships and do an extreme act of penance where a normal human would die, but meh. We can take it anyways. It's not like we haven't done this sort of thing before. I think most questers are angry at this because Frederick doesn't deserve to be treated this way. He is a Hero of the Empire after all.
But...Well it's a shame that the Holders of the Shore event happened. Even if the event was not our fault, we still acted accordingly to our title. The Mad Steel Bull. That doesn't sit well with the Mannan lads we got in here, because they would have eventually tracked down all their traitors one way or another.
This is just us metaphorically giving up our ass to be plunged with a Mutated Narwhal Horn, but we need to do it. We can't risk further angering and souring our relations with one of the biggest Religious organizations in the Old World. And you know what guys? We bended Frederick's ass to worse people anyways so this is nothing special.
Although I am against giving up all of our Greatships. We can just give three or two of them in my opinion.
I mean yeah it's a damn shame that Freddy has to give up most of his Greatships and do an extreme act of penance where a normal human would die, but meh. We can take it anyways. It's not like we haven't done this sort of thing before. I think most questers are angry at this because Frederick doesn't deserve to be treated this way. He is a Hero of the Empire after all.
But...Well it's a shame that the Holders of the Shore event happened. Even if the event was not our fault, we still acted accordingly to our title. The Mad Steel Bull. That doesn't sit well with the Mannan lads we got in here, because they would have eventually tracked down all their traitors one way or another.
This is just us metaphorically giving up our ass to be plunged with a Mutated Narwhal Horn, but we need to do it. We can't risk further angering and souring our relations with one of the biggest Religious organizations in the Old World. And you know what guys? We bended Frederick's ass to worse people anyways so this is nothing special.
Although I am against giving up all of our Greatships. We can just give three or two of them in my opinion.
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Lord of Gifts
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OK man, imma need you to take a step back and stop drinking the protagonist morality Kool aid and actually think for a second.
Because all of that? Sounded completely fucking insane both IC and OOC so please don't quote me if you're going to go on weird conspiracy theorist rants that make you sound like a whacko extremist who burns people alive at the stake. Although that may have been what you were going for in which case, good job! You have successfully convinced me you can RP as a total psychopath.
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
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Remember that nurgle plot was the result of a nat 100 and the Witch Hunters (Heavens begad) actually proving that they were killing cultists is neigh unheard of.
...well most of them were traumatised from having been attacked by holders of the shore who were trying to kill them so that's a start.
As for the rest of that justification rant...I mean there's just nothing I can do here, that's just conspiracy theory level nonsense. There is no level of evidence I can offer from chaos not being that sort of omni present threat in WHF, to the fact that yes the world got to see Mannan's anger when he elected a new Matriarch to lead a crusade against them and more and more and more.
...I mean you'd certainly make for a good witch hunter I'll give you that, you have the paranoia, the unsettling levels of devotion, the unquestioning beliefs and reflexive self justification and the capacity to see conspiracy everywhere when there is no evidence.
Its almost like the GM made sure to point out Freddy sounded practically unhinged talking about the Black Ark threat to justify why he ordered the witch hunters to do their thing and that its an unreasonable argument to any sane minded person even in warhammer!
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Nah, Manann laughs at the loss of life he's kind of an ass. The god wouldn't care this is all mortal politics and an echlesiary dick measuring contest i want her to admit this isn't penance to manann but to those who allowed this to happen
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Lord of Gifts
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No, he would care, because we killed people who were loyal and true in their service to him. He doesn't just let his followers be killed for no fucking reason. He likes being respected and being feared and in doing what we did? We proved we have none of that for him. So he's going to have his divine voice teach us that.
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