Nah, Manann laughs at the loss of life he's kind of an ass. The god wouldn't care this is all mortal politics and an echlesiary dick measuring contest i want her to admit this isn't penance to manann but to those who allowed this to happen
...again kinda did, she even told us which parts of the cult are more appeased by us doing different things (the layity are appeased by the Keerhauling, the clergy the sacrifices) however as demonstrated by her going all octopus lady, Mannan himself is in fact pissed, at us. Turns out gods do care about their more devoted followers that's why give people blessings and do things like show divine favour to the one they've chosen to lead an effective crusade against the holders.
 
OK man, imma need you to take a step back and stop drinking the protagonist morality Kool aid and actually think for a second.

Because all of that? Sounded completely fucking insane both IC and OOC so please don't quote me if you're going to go on weird conspiracy theorist rants that make you sound like a whacko extremist who burns people alive at the stake. Although that may have been what you were going for in which case, good job! You have successfully convinced me you can RP as a total psychopath.


Okay makeing sure the threat was eliminated not good enough for you ? How convenient that after it was over and done you claim the moral high ground.
 
No, he would care, becuase we killed people who were loyal and true in their service to him. He doesn't just let his followers be killed for no fucking reason. He likes being respected and being feared and in doing what we did? We proved we have none of that for him. So he's going to have his divine voice teach us that.
Nah, again he is hardcore and murdered a bunch of his own for this fuckup he might be pissed but not as much as he is with his own clergy for allowing them to show their ass while representing him, this is literally all on the cult not Manann

And Manann lets his followers die for no reason all the time, god of the sea, storms and all that jazz he tests his faithful often and alot drown
 
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Nah, again he is hardcore and murdered a bunch of his own for this fuckup he might be pissed but not as much as he is with his own clergy for allowing them to show their ass while representing him, this is literally all on the cult not Manann
No one says it's on Manann? Where the fuck did you get that? We're saying he's pissed because we openly disrespected him by overstepping our authority and infringing the authority of his chosen. He won't let that insult slide no matter what its for.
 
Okay makeing sure the threat was eliminated not good enough for you ? How convenient that after it was over and done you claim the moral high ground.
What the actual fuck are you talking about.
He's saying that they should be grateful to Freddy for eliminating the holders and that they're taking this opportunity to screw him over for...reasons.

Ignoring the fact that they out right said the one silver lining they are happy about in this mess is that the Holders are dead and that the reason they are claiming the moral high ground is that they have done the same themselves across the entire old world else where without needing to murder even more people!

Nah, again he is hardcore and murdered a bunch of his own for this fuckup he might be pissed but not as much as he is with his own clergy for allowing them to show their ass while representing him, this is literally all on the cult not Manann

And Manann lets his followers die for no reason all the time, god of the sea, storms and all that jazz he tests his faithful often and alot drown
Annatar handled the first part, but the second also makes no sense.

Its like claiming that bit about Morr binding Shallya cause otherwise she'd heal everyone is literal. They are not omnipotent even within their domains, otherwise we'd never have a chaos cult in the empire. As much as Sigmarite supremacists claim Sigmar is omnipotent Sigmar is not, the same applies to every god within the setting.
 
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Manann regularly tosses storms at his faithful to test them and some of them drown it's his thing, while other gods won't go out of their way to put their clergy in peril because the worlds kinda fucked Manann does it all the time as an aspect of himself

And yes she's his chosen but the whole octupus thing were her blessings wich she had prior to Frederick killing all those dudes and yes penance needs to be made but mortal politics are making everything worse

Like i said earlier 10% Manann is pissed

90% zealots want attention away from their failings (sanctioned and not)

Make a big enough kerfuffle about the disrespectful actions of a count while the remnants of a chaos cult melt back into the fold

To organized over such a large area in a cult that designs their holdings to be unstructured for it to be anything but coordinated and it's goal chaos in the empire
 
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Heck, wiki states how Triton hates the dark elves for what they did to sea dragons and other creatures of ocean they have enslaved, so implies that Manann likes most sea monsters.
They are a natural part of his domain, like cherished pets or even children of course he's mad some random and dwelling assholes corrupted them land turned them into mockeries of their former selves!

Remember as the sea god, he probably cares more about sea life than humans, maybe not by a lot, but you never know when he might take the sea monsters side in the conflict, especially if you were a dick about not paying him his dues...
You know, that makes me think... there's probably sea dragons/merwyrms older than Manann. Even if we assume that Manann is the same as Mathlann, we know that there are dragons alive that predate the arrival of the Old Ones and the very creation of the elven species. Sea Dragons are just mutated Caledorian dragons and Merwyrms are closely related cousins who just adapted to living in the water, so I don't think it's that much of a reach to think the most ancient of them can remember a time before Manann.

And that's just fascinating to me. What does a creature older than the god who holds domain over them think of such a god? Disdain for a usurper? Indifference? Pragmatic cooperation? Or is Manann simply so powerful that all sea creatures must submit to him?
 
Manann regularly tosses storms at his faithful to test them and some of them drown it's his thing, while other gods won't go out of their way to put their clergy in peril because the worlds kinda fucked Manann does it all the time as an aspect of himself

And yes she's his chosen but the whole octupus thing were her blessings wich she had prior to Frederick killing all those dudes and yes penance needs to be made but mortal politics are making everything worse

Like i said earlier 10% Manann is pissed

90% zealots want attention away from their failings (sanctioned and not)

Make a big enough kerfuffle about the disrespectful actions of a count while the remnants of a chaos cult melt back into the fold
Or you know...that's more because its the sea.

Which Manann is but does not have complete control over, otherwise he'd likely just sink all the Druchhii.

Manann has influence and power, over the sea for certain, but the fact remains seperating the god being pissed from the ocean doing its ocean thing is another matter entirely, what Manann allows is for someone to potentially intercede on our behalf, either to make it better or worse.

Of course that has encouraged a cult who believes that "a thousand and one things can anger the god" hence their elaborate pennace rituals.

Like again the politics defo ain't helping, but as far as the cult is concerned this kinda stuff is the norm. Its why their immidiate response was to tie themselves to their masts to both ask for punishment and guidance. Cult of Manann

Or is Manann simply so powerful that all sea creatures must submit to him?
Or you know Manann is no where near that powerful...

The Mannanite cult believes he commands all waters in the world the same way Shallyans believe that she could heal everybody if Morr wasn't stopping her...but those are myths and legends created by true believers, the reality of it is far different. They're not omnipotent within their domains.
 
Well, looking at the positive side of this mess, we might actually build a closer connection with the head of the cult of Manann than we would otherwise. Now we might be able to mollify her with a show of penance and then establish ties that would give us another level for Marienburg politics. Even slightly positive ties with the head of the most important church in the city can play an important role, and we do have the same enemies, at least in part.
Yes we rolled a big number and big numbers are good. But that big number was explicly tacked on to having raving lunatics ransack the priesthood of a separate cult not beholden to them.
I am sorry, but when did we roll a big number on Witch Hunters against the cultists? I don't remember it in the turn itself.
 
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I am sorry, but when did we roll a big number on Witch Hunters against the cultists? I don't remember in in the turn itself.
Turn 19
Fuck You Nurgle: Hey. You know what you have? Witch Hunters. You know what none of them, at least in Ostland, have had a chance to do in a really, really long time? Kill, purge, and destroy cultists. Now, normally, unleashing the Witch Hunters onto your populace would cause people to be rather concerned and confused, also fearful and distrustful of you personally, but these are Nurglites. A special place of hatred resides in the province for what Gruber did to your neighbor. Also, you enjoy an incredible amount of support from your citizenry. So really, the fact that you are happy to exterminate a full chunk of your populace is going to be all right. So long, of course, that the Witch Hunters are going to be successful. Captain Liesdotte is eager, and says that she will personally ensure that the Hunters check over every public works project that the cultists were involved in. All you need to do is…let them off the leash. Cost: 750. Time: 2 Years. Reward: Nurgle Cultists dead. Check for what they may or may not have messed with. Chance of Success: 65% Required: 35. Rolled: 93+DD(20)=113

- You and the Witch Hunters have never been that close. But, you know for a fact that it has been ages since they have gotten to do...anything. They weren't tapped to be part of the Witch Hunter Army, they got beaten up pretty badly during the Vampire War, and other than that they've been sitting on eggshells ever since Magnus burned down their former leader for killing thousands. So, really, perhaps you should have expected this. When you gave them funding, and pointed them, unhooked the leash, and said 'Burn them' they did just that. The whole of the Witch Hunters of Ostland sprinted from their barracks, carrying whole bags of pistols and torches and stakes of metal and wood. All around the province, cultists were burnt alive, shot at every hour, and all the while the Witch Hunters managed to conclusively prove that they were cultists. Which, more often than not, was the problem with their order. Probably a lot more than most people think, they are correct in their assessments. The problem comes about when they don't prove it to anyone else, when they just say 'it's true' and they can't prove it. But the boils, the diseases, the plague cauldrons they left in their basements, the bricks that they laid as part of the construction work revealed to be contaminated with plagued fungus of supernatural nature...yeah. The Witch Hunters burned, and purged, and stabbed, and shot, and proved themselves to the people. For the first time in a long time, the Witch Hunters of Ostland enjoy a lot of support, from just about everyone even the Ulricans. It's like a mini version of the Army of Sigmar. Captain Liesdotte personally thanks you while covered in the ashes of a hundred burnt cultists before diving into a pool of holy and purified water that was blessed by a Priest of Sigmar and swiped in a ritual by an Ulrican to get rid of anything else. Reconstruction efforts were sabotaged, bricks full of plague, cauldrons left in rebuilt villages, buried corpses that were green and yellowed and had to be burnt to ash, all sorts of things. In the end, their leader transformed into a daemon, or was one all along, or something like that. A blast from the past, that was, for it was one of the last Plaguebearers - the daemon type - who served the long dead Gruber. It had been working for years to subvert and target you, but in one year by letting the Witch Hunters ruin everything, they ruined, well, all of its plans. The Witch Hunters are pleased, and the people are pleased, even though a statistically significant part of your populace was just killed in a variety of ways. The projects they worked on, will be repaired and refurbished quite well thanks to the money that you are still pouring into reconstruction. Reward: Nurgle Cultists dead to a man. Projects damaged repaired. No public approval loss. Witch Hunter Approval Gain.
Not a nat 100 as I recalled, but over 100, with their actions being explicitly out of character for them
 
I imagine a lot of what Manaan does is making sure disasters don't happen when they are supposed to happen.
 
I'm not going to comment on acts and reactions deserving or not an appellation of 'thin-skinned', because honest to god I'm just getting worn down to an unmotivated nub at this point.

Well that saddens me, what you've written is great, people that underestimated the importance of Mannan were not putting any thought into it. This entire arc so far has been a treat to read because it involves at least at the high levels every one operating and doing the best they can and mistakes and fuck ups happening in spite of it, it feels like something I could absolutely see happening in setting. Freddy is a smart man, but he's also bullheaded and can be quite rash at times and he unleashed the witchhunters in one of those moments.

If anything the only thing I would say is that the Matriarch of the Mannanites feels like she's being to reasonable, I can only imagine it's because she's read up so extensively on Fredrick that she does actually respect his deeds and accomplishments even as she's disgusted with what the witch hunters did.

What I'm saying is that this has been fun and interesting and I really hope you don't get to down at people complaining.
 
Think it was a narrative thing or some other factions roll *cough*chaos*cough* maybe the witch hunters are just that good (flash back to heart taker and giant fustercluck)

Who knows?

Seriously though it's a great story torroar and i enjoy every moment even if it frustrates me, its because I've become invested in the characters and story to such an amazing extent that i worry about the characters as if they were real.

And that is a testament to the quality of what you do, your work is awesome.
 
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And this? This is exactly why I tend to keep the heck out of discussions.
This forum (and it's siblings) is chock-full of very intelligent people. So, 9 times out of 10, when it comes up to debate, we descend to that most basic and regrettable tendency of nerdom - trying to prove you are the smartest, which in due course provides polarisation, and shortly thereafter the issues descend into factional ism only tangentially related to the actual issues that had originally sparked the debate.
For those feeling personally attacked by this statement: I explicitly include myself in the abovementioned category. I am self aware enough to not want to be that kind of person, but I am also self aware enough to know that if wishes were fishes, there would be no place for anything but fishes on this good glorious earth, and I already am guilty on all charges I've personally laid out above. Thus me trying (and failing) to keep out.

And now, to live down to my own lowest expectations, here are my 0.02$ and some actual personal atacks:
Both sides perpetuating this infernal debate are equally wrong headed and culpable in making Tor even more exausted.
What has happened has happened, and for the most part is a result of rolls.
Rolls caused keepers of the shore to act quite as successfully and unexpectedly as they did, and for the foamborne to drop the ball quite so spectacularly.
Rolls caused the result of letting Witch hunters of the leash to cause quite as much collateral. Mind, yes, letting them of the leash was always going to cause some friction with the cult of Maanan.
But, here's the thing, waiting for the foamborne to get here and deall with it would have caused a comparably bad outcome with that same bad roll.
As Freddy himself said in the update: none are without sin. Everyone fucks up, and RNG are far more perverse and fickle than all the gods of Mallus combined.

So, for the love of all that is Holly, profane and in between, can we please put it to rest?
Please?
 
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I don't really get why there are so many people that want to both give all the Greatships and take the worst Kneelhauling option...

Yeah, I understand that we have to do something to make up for the Cult of Manaan but each of those options is by itself enough to appease the fanatics and reinforce the position of Maghda, so let´s make either one or the other, and not both stupidly risk Freddy´s life and lose all our best naval assets is a single vote.
 
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Really the only thing that concerns me about the trial is that we might straight up drown and suffer a rather inglorious end after all we went through...is there a water breathing spell in Warhammer? Cause we might need it.
 
Honestly, I don't get people's salt over this? I feel that it fits within the narrative of the Warhammer world that the cults are quite fractious. Of course, we also saw that a branch of the Manaanites is controlled, if not heavily influenced by an enemy of ours so it makes sense that there'd be an extra undercurrent of hostility. The chain of events is also quite logical, we've known from personal experience that the Witch Hunters are overzealous, to say the least. What group wouldn't be angry that some of its members were killed in a witch hunt when a clear and safe alternative does exist?
 
Really the only thing that concerns me about the trial is that we might straight up drown and suffer a rather inglorious end after all we went through...is there a water breathing spell in Warhammer? Cause we might need it.
I mean if this was happening IRL it would totally be an inglorious end, Kneelhauling wasn´t theoretically meant to be an execution, but in practice, it was basically the naval equivalent of being hang, drawn, and quartered...

But apparently, survival is the rule of Kneelhauling in this setting so let´s roll with it...
 
Honestly, I don't get people's salt over this? I feel that it fits within the narrative of the Warhammer world that the cults are quite fractious. Of course, we also saw that a branch of the Manaanites is controlled, if not heavily influenced by an enemy of ours so it makes sense that there'd be an extra undercurrent of hostility. The chain of events is also quite logical, we've known from personal experience that the Witch Hunters are overzealous, to say the least. What group wouldn't be angry that some of its members were killed in a witch hunt when a clear and safe alternative does exist?
I know right?!! This doesn't deserve salt, there's like a million things that deserve more salt than this of all things.

Like, this isn't a lose lose, this isn't a permanent loss of our rep, this can be fixed, we can move on, fuck up the beastmen, badda bing badda boom. Like Christ, can we all just relax.
 
Kinda, many of the empire's problems are the result of having far too many freaking trees. Sustained effort over the course of its history would have made a rather considerable dent in them, indeed have around Reikland. The other half of the empire's bigger issues I attribute to the Black Death causing a huge backslide politically and culturally. ****ing Skaven.
There actually were less trees, or at least, i think argument could be made that there were. And you named it. Black death claimed 3/4ths of Empire population and then the Skaven wars happened. Its entirely probable that the forests were cut down back then, but quite simply grew back after and mankind just didn't have the numbers to take them back.
 
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