I've genuinely spent probably far too much time on this, but that's sort of the nature of a passion project, you know? It's a creation of writing and interaction with others, born of just passion for writing and and the enjoyment thereof.

Brother, your passion project is fucking awesome, if it was ever "too much time spent" you've moved well beyond that and created art, created a thing you can be proud of for your entire life. I love reading it so much. I find myself going back and rereading the vampire war or Karak Ungor or earlier parts of the quest because ive got nostalgia for the mood. I feel so lucky to have stumbled upon it!

The current arc is excellent. It is. I respect you for taking the criticism seriously, and I won't get colorful but I very much question the people who still have hostility towards these groups you're obviously invested in.

I love the characterization, and if nothing else thank you for putting up with the assaults on your enjoyment of your project and continuing to churn it out.

If I may ask, @torroar , what parts of the dialogue have you enjoyed? What parts of the interaction is most rewarding? Any times when the forum has surprised you, pleasantly?
 
Don't we have a magic healing lady and magic healing artifact on standby? Given that, why exactly shouldn't we go for broke with the keel hauling?
 
Don't we have a magic healing lady and magic healing artifact on standby? Given that, why exactly shouldn't we go for broke with the keel hauling?
I people are afraid that Freddy would die during process before he is pulled out and allowed to heal, but as pointed out by others and GM Freddy is tough, has access to gauntlet, Matriarch is on our side, got Fate/Fortune point, and lots of advantages for us that should make baring consistent crit fails Freddy should live to get healed.
 
I people are afraid that Freddy would die during process before he is pulled out and allowed to heal, but as pointed out by others and GM Freddy is tough, has access to gauntlet, Matriarch is on our side, got Fate/Fortune point, and lots of advantages for us that should make baring consistent crit fails Freddy should live to get healed.

Watch this be the inverse of the last time we did this and we get three nat 1's in a row.
 
Tellingly Freddy seems to be the only person who did not listen, because everyone else trusted the person who was presumably chosen by the god in question to receive their position.
Kattarin's secret police(founded by Alexandra) also interrogated and hung suspected Holders a few days before the attack. It's why Kislev didn't suffer fleet damage.
It's possible that everyone else simply didn't have a secret police force dedicated to rooting out heretics headquartered within their borders.

Remas and Sartosa also managed to avoid damage. But the former is currently ruled by an Elf and the latter worships Stromfels.
This is more reasonable, but given the degree of sheer heresy that just happened I think it would have been more reasonable to assume they would have cared infinitely more dealing with the arch heretics and making reparations on their end.
The correlation between high-ranking priest and the ability to work miracles is not watertight. And we've had experience with bad priests in the past(Jung being a commonly-cited example).
I'm personally vying to give them our 4th and 5th Greatships and not our first three because giving out our youngest ships seem good enough.
I want to give them 3. It's a stronger signal, and I like the optics of giving the ships which bear Oskar's Frederick's, and Natasha's names.
I'm not enthused by the idea of sacrificing ships named after Freddy's children. Especially not the one named after a six year old that's been dead for two and a half decades and had nothing to do with the order.

As such I'll stick to what I know that being that the empire's the only nation that needs witch hunters supposedly to keep existing, everyone else can do without it.

Yes one can easily argue the Bretons do it by ensuring all the peasants are so inbred that they can't even think the words rebellion and kill all the Merchants and in some editions I'm probably right, but as I understand it that's not the majority (thank heck.)
I had assumed it was something that was pushed up the timeline because of how conveniently useful Alexandra was for it, since having secret police seems to perfectly fit magic Russia :p

But I suppose that just shows how well put together torroar's world building is!
Witch Hunters are a Hammer solution. As befitting of the God with the Hammer.

Looking at Realm of the Ice Queen... actual Witch Hunters do operate in Kislev by the time of Karl Franz. And OTL Kislev actually does have a secular equivalent of the Witch Hunters in the form of the Chekists. Because of course they have a secret police force.
The Ungol communities also have the Hags to protect them against mutation and tainted/cursed grounds. And the communities in turn protect their Hags against external threats(though Realm of the Ice Queen goes to mention that they sometimes choose to be slow in stopping a Witch Hunter from torturing the local Hag a bit "just in case she really is serving Chaos" because everybody kinda hates and fears the Hags).

When it comes to other Old World nations? Bretonnia has Damsels, worse technology and is mostly held together because they manage to pump out divinely blessed supersoldiers with unusual regularity.
Meanwhile Tome of Salvation mentions that the Cult of Myrmidia is second only to the Cult of Sigmar when it comes to rooting out deviants from within. And that Verenans frequently accuse the Myrmidian court system of conducting sham trials that convict regardless of how flimsy the evidence is.
Tilea also has the local assassins guild helping maintain law and order and conflicts settled by hiring mercenaries against one's rivals(and people betraying said mercenaries for profit).
Estalia on the other hand? Duels. Duels everywhere and little to no unity to be found. It's a miracle that they even function.

For all its flaws, the Empire is actually one of the less awful places to be in the Old World.
Unless you're a merchant in Bretonnia. No VAT or property taxes in Bretonnia according to Knights of the Grail. Only taxes on production(and merchants don't produce anything).
 
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As I've said before on this quest, and I'll no doubt say again - he who fears his fate too much, and whose deserts are small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.

We are Frederick von Hohenzollern. We've cheated death more times than can be counted and already have left no end of impact on the world, enough that if we died here (which, given the list of emergency oh-shit buttons we have is pretty slim) we'd still have one helluva remembrance from our friends and loved ones.

And besides, we can basically pants the Marienburg families in doing this with a display of strength and piety they literally cannot match. And the Matriarch seems like the sort of cast-iron bitch of a badass I want on our side. :D
 
I say give one great ship burn the DE ship (unless we plan on reverse engineering them somehow) and then do the full keel hauling.
 
I don't understand why everyone wants to burn ships. Give some up? Sure. But why burning? It's not exactly called out as being especially better and it just ends with more coasts sacked as raiders make it to shore. It's all negative.
 
-[] Triton's Fury: A traveling temple-ship of Manann, practically the size of a Greatship, but its structure has been given far less over to battle than to making a mobile living space for its crew of Sea-Born. [Most Dangerous/Extreme Appeasement/Approval Gain]

Honestly I'd say take this, it isn't a patch on the pain and damage Fred dealt with before this. We not only have our healing toy, we also have a high level magical healer as well. At worst the wife can freeze the worst of the wounds shut to deal with them one at a time as needed.

The idea we could die before one or the other heals us is insane.

This does remind me after this up close look at fouled ship hulls Fred should come up with the idea of Copper sheathing. It isn't complex or hard to do, the Greeks did it with lead. It would also be hilarious that Fred comes up with the idea after this because he never wants to see another fouled hull in his fucking life. :D
 
I don't understand why everyone wants to burn ships. Give some up? Sure. But why burning? It's not exactly called out as being especially better and it just ends with more coasts sacked as raiders make it to shore. It's all negative.
Not to mention that the reason we killed the Holders of the Shore(and suspected members) was because the Holders tried to burn ships.
 
Personally I'm all for giving 3 Greatships and either level 3 or 4 of the punishment thing. Don't feel we need to go maximum over drive for this but going beyond the bare minimum will probably pay off in the long run.
 
[]Plan Reaper
-[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
-[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
--[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time. (Write-In How Many If Any/Which Greatships) [Major Appeasement/Approval For Each Ship]
---[] 1 Ostland Greatship 'Oskar's Omen'
-[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry.
--[] Five-Tined Hunter: A wolf ship of the Cult of Manann that sails regularly against corsairs, pirates, worshippers of Stromfels, Druchii, and so on. [Dangerous/Appeasement/Approval Gain]
-[] Donate 3000 gold to Mannan.

The Raven ships aren't really a loss. let's get some use from them. Oskar was destined to serve Mannan and he is lost to us. The symbology seems appropriate to the situation. A sacrifice of blood is appropriate given the situation and she seemed to be pushing us in that direction. The Wolfship, used to hunt the enemies of mannan and also the empire, holds a lot of symbology since we are tasked with the defense of the empire as commander of the Third Fleet. The gold can't hurt, and will help with the full spread of the different factions. We are also the Goldgiver.

Reposting this as a proposal. it's a spread of different things that is likely to bot appease Mannan, and satisfy the different factions of the cult. We can't learn anything from the Ravenships, and burning them will help with both Mannan and the cult. Giving them 1 greatship, and my choice is the one named after our lost child that would have most likely served mannan, for the sacrifice related to the sea. We are responsible for the innocents that died. a mid-level keelhauling should satisfy those that want blood. and finally, toss them some gold to the cult. it might help with Mannan and will appease some of those that just want us to "pay". We should survive it and can weather the losses fairly easily, but it IS a sacrifice. hopefully it will help finally end this clusterfuck we've gotten ourselves into.
 
Goddamnit, the spite is tempting me towards going maximum overdrive on the keelhauling despite my reservations... just to fucking flex on marienburg.

And then we go fucking kill some sharks with our own bare hands.
 
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Reposting this as a proposal. it's a spread of different things that is likely to bot appease Mannan, and satisfy the different factions of the cult. We can't learn anything from the Ravenships, and burning them will help with both Mannan and the cult. Giving them 1 greatship, and my choice is the one named after our lost child that would have most likely served mannan, for the sacrifice related to the sea. We are responsible for the innocents that died. a mid-level keelhauling should satisfy those that want blood. and finally, toss them some gold to the cult. it might help with Mannan and will appease some of those that just want us to "pay". We should survive it and can weather the losses fairly easily, but it IS a sacrifice. hopefully it will help finally end this clusterfuck we've gotten ourselves into.
So your response is to throw shit at a wall and hope something sticks? We don't want to satisfy the money grubbers. Firstly, because we just can't and it was called out in text. Secondly, because they are responsible for the erosion of Manaan's apolitical stance. We do not want that to change.
 
And why I've characterized Maghda as caring deeply for the Faithful of Manann explicitly in these past two updates, focusing explicitly on 'how can we make things better for them/reassure them'. Because she really cares about them! And, like, yes, the Greatships would not be under Ostland control, but my god, why would you think she would want to explicitly harm the Faithful of Ostland. The point is for Frederick to make the sacrifice because of the pride and money put in them, not anyone else. Otherwise, she would have been like 'hey, yeah, let's do some penance for the wife and the ogre and all the Greatswords and so on and so forth'. The punishment is for Frederick, no one else's. She also sneered on the tendency for there to be collateral damage when the Sigmarites go a-bashing. So why...why...why...would you think she'd accept causing collateral damage to Manann's Faithful in Ostland in the course of this?

It was supposed to come up organically next update, as the levels of appeasement could improve Maghda's level of authority amongst the Cult, meaning she could allocate more funds and effort to protecting the holy site of Salkalten's temple or things like that, but I didn't want to explicitly spell that out here, because its supposed to be a personal vote of thought not something that metagames on the potential offerings afterwards.

She would never, ever, ever countenance an act that would cause more harm to Ostland's faithful to the Cult, especially when she's made it clear how this is supposed to help them spiritually and mentally so that they can go out and do stuff physically.
... Well that kind of makes me lean a lot more heavily on the "Dedicate all 5 Greatships to Manann" action, then...

Because. This sounded a lot like a confirmation that Maghda would not screw over Ostland's naval defenses against the Druchii and Norscans!

Because it's meant to be a sacrifice of pride and status/stature from Frederick (and Ostland's wealth/status/prestige)!

It is not meant to actually hurt or put Ostland in threat...

... Yessss, in fact...

This is looking like a huge opportunity!

Guys, if we give all 5 -- or maybe just 4? -- Greatships to Maghda this also hugely shores up her support in Marienburg and among the faithful and against the Rutgers and pro-Haendryk types!

This is not just an opportunity to avoid Manann's displeasure and to win his favor, this is also an opportunity to achieve some of our political goals/thoughts/desires in Marienburg! ((The update even says this, and I even quote this and comment on it once, but I then kind of zoned out about it, but. Yeah.))


Wouldn't it be extremely worth it to get the Matriarch of the Cult of Manann resoundingly on our side, from this?

Think of it like this guys: this is snatching victory from the jaws of defeat.

So I say, go for it.

I say, let's go all the way. Level 4+ Greatships, and level 4+ Keelhauling. Ideally max levels on both.
And that's something people seem to be forgetting. Mannan's so powerful in this city and Its almost like the GM is hinting that the cult leader who dislikes mercantile asshats might be a potential ally against the mercantine dick heads we area dealing with.

HINT HINT!
Yeah, definitely. I am now more excited about this whole thing. Rather than just cautiously optimistic in the veins of 'Well, maybe we'll be able to keep this from being horrible and blowing up in our faces?' I feel energized/excited about this! :D

... Plus. I want to see more of Manann and Maghda.
Yes but it's something we then no longer have control over and I would like to keep at least half
I am not opposed to giving her the third once we made new ones but I find that losing 3 is too big of a sudden drop in power
That's true. That's absolutely true that we lose total control over that.

But.

You know what makes it?

That makes it, an act of faith.

And a hella powerful one too.

It is saying, that we trust in Manann and the Cult of Manann to defend us.

That we trust almost utterly in Maghda's position and benevolence, and that Manann's faithful will protest us and serve us.

And also, at the same time, Frederick demonstrates the greatest amount of remorse for his actions by the greatest keelhauling? Well. That's a hell of a kicker.

Think of how all that will look to people and to Manann's faithful.

Both the act of Frederick doing an extreme penance, and then Frederick going "Manann, take the wheel!"

Heh, in fact, that could be a neat plan name -- "Manann, take the wheel!" or "We put our faith in Manann" or the like. If anybody wants to use that name.
 
I think we could sacrifice the Druuchi when we finish that lighthouse, Go Keelhauling in the 3rd ship, and Offer up our oldest Greatship to the Cult, maybe have it be Maghda's new flagship?
 
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I shudder to imagine the thread inferno that would have happened if we had went and killed half the witch hunters in our province and the Sigmarites are Upset (TM)
Likely for patrolling the Sea of Claws still, as Marienburg lets out into the westernmost portion of that. Possible as mobile temple ships. Or could be sent elsewhere. If they're under the command of Maghda, she can basically send them wherever she wants. Like, hell, I dunno, patrolling the Ostland segment of the Sea of Claws but under the flag of the Cult of Manann rather than any one province. After all, the Temple of Salkalten is a confirmed sight of Manann's holy wrath protecting his faithful.

The Cult of Manann definitely has the support and equipment to do that sort of thing, though. It's...kind of their thing.
So we could actually sort of avoid most of the worst consequences of giving away the Greatships? Fascinating.

[] Sacrifice Them To Manann: Set the things aflame, get some dockspace back, and offer a minor but appreciated appeasement to Manann. [Minor Appeasement/Maghda Approval]
[] The Greatships of Ostland: Sacrifice requires actual sacrifice. Wolfships are common vessels, and war galleys are meant for close coastal patrolling. You can rebuild later. Perhaps even with actual blessings and aid from the Cathedral, if you accept a bit of loss beforehand.
-[] Give Them: It stings, yes, but you'll know that the Cult of Manann will not misuse them. It would literally be sacrilege to do so. They will be honored vessels, surely, given what they are they'll not just sit in dock doing nothing. It could, even, show them off to the rest of the Empire in a positive light given time.
--[] All of them

[] Accept the Keelhauling: It will hurt. That's rather the point. The only thing to think about is how sever you want to be about it. This is less about appeasing the priests, and more about quieting the mob, the fury of the common flock....and some of the priests who are especially angry. Who wish punishment, regardless of the fact that very, very technically, you were legally in the right. (Choose Ship Choice From Below)
-[] The Rambler: An average trading ship, regularly barnacled. [Somewhat Dangerous/Minor Appeasement/Approval Gain]

This actually comes with a risk of dying or spending a fate point. That can't be good!
 
So your response is to throw shit at a wall and hope something sticks? We don't want to satisfy the money grubbers. Firstly, because we just can't and it was called out in text. Secondly, because they are responsible for the erosion of Manaan's apolitical stance. We do not want that to change.

No. The plan is to appease Mannan, and a secondary priority is to satisfy enough of the cult that we can get back to business as usual instead of having factions of the cult that aren't radical but just have a problem with us specifically. The money grubbers are part of that, and the gold goes to the cult, not the council. while not always rational, most people understand that negoation usually doesn't give them everything they want but does get them something. The different factions want blood, gold, and revenge/justice. this plan gives each faction something. It will get all but the hardliners from each faction to start working with us again. and having said all that, taken as a whole, it is a substantial sacrifice to Mannan. Hopefully, he will stop being pissed off at us. If we give just enough to appease Maghda, but don't bring around the different factions, which she has told us is a possibility, We will continue to have problems. and if it's not enough for Mannan none of it will matter.
 
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