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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Oh right, quick question for you, Soulcake. Is Adamant, er, conductive? Just wondering for a Rune combo I'm thinking up. Also, out of curiosity, are there Runes for all traditional metals? Or is the Rune for iron the only one we've got?
 
IronFist said:
When we make that, we should put it on the Miner's pick :)
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Grungni, Cleaving, and... either Might or Striking or Cleaving again?

Cleaving originally was a mining rune after all. Armybook has it go from Armor Piercing, to +1 Strength, to Killing Blow as you use more Runes of Cleaving.

Although... After Master Rune of Breaking and Smednir's Rune was said to share some similarities... I wonder if maybe the same might end up being the case for the Cleaving Rune and Grungni? A rune for mining and the rune of the Ancestor God Grungni.

"Smednir, Shaper of Ore, is one of the Ancestor Gods, patron of metalworking and ore refinement."
"Grungni is the Dwarf Ancestor God of Mines and Artisans and one of the three most famous of the Ancestor Gods. He is the father of the Dwarf race. He taught the first Dwarfs how to dig deep into the earth, and how to mine ore and smith metal."

Some annoying overlap there in the wiki descriptions (which are often not the most reliable, so keep that in mind) but Grungni is the one who mined.

Though... I wonder if an Armor holding the runes of Smednir, Fire, and Iron might result in anything.?
 
Garlak said:
Grungni, Cleaving, and... either Might or Striking or Cleaving again?

Cleaving originally was a mining rune after all. Armybook has it go from Armor Piercing, to +1 Strength, to Killing Blow as you use more Runes of Cleaving.

Although... After Master Rune of Breaking and Smednir's Rune was said to share some similarities... I wonder if maybe the same might end up being the case for the Cleaving Rune and Grungni? A rune for mining and the rune of the Ancestor God Grungni.

"Smednir, Shaper of Ore, is one of the Ancestor Gods, patron of metalworking and ore refinement."
"Grungni is the Dwarf Ancestor God of Mines and Artisans and one of the three most famous of the Ancestor Gods. He is the father of the Dwarf race. He taught the first Dwarfs how to dig deep into the earth, and how to mine ore and smith metal."

Some annoying overlap there in the wiki descriptions (which are often not the most reliable, so keep that in mind) but Grungni is the one who mined.

Though... I wonder if an Armor holding the runes of Smednir, Fire, and Iron might result in anything.?
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Cleaving is about breaking the strongest stone so it makes sense to put on the Miner's pick. I would also say the rune of Striking, because mining is a precise art. Just the right amount of force in just the right place to get what you want and not bring down the ceiling on your head.
 
LaggPlaguedDuke said:
Now the real trick is figuring out how to make combos with master runes into their own master rune as if unyielding wasn't good enough on its own.
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The real end goal is obviously to create THE A L L R U N E, a Master Rune containing of every single known Rune by progressively combining each Rune into a combo and then creating a new Master Rune from that combo, until the Master Rune eventually encompasses every Rune ever.
 
TheDuke said:
The real end goal is obviously to create THE A L L R U N E, a Master Rune containing of every single known Rune by progressively combining each Rune into a combo and then creating a new Master Rune from that combo, until the Master Rune eventually encompasses every Rune ever.
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Which, unfortunately, causes the Dwarven Runesmith who finally learns said rune to suffer severe mental trauma as the pure knowledge of such an intricate and complex language causes irreversible damage to their psyche, a consequence of which is that they can never again create, or teach others to create, runes.
 
I wonder if we could spend some favour with the Brotherhood to get access to some of the less restricted information they have on >3 rune runework research (Like, see if there are any bits of information widespread enough that they'd be willing to give out).

I'd really like to see if enough Runesmiths have tried "What happens if I try to put the four most minor runes I can think of on an Adamant bar" that the results would be purchasable via favour.
 
BelligerentGnu said:
What do you think the Master Rune of Unyielding is? Tireless is also a Master Rune.
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I wouldn't be 100% sure on that. First, because the description of the Master Rune of Tireless also included Tireless itself. Which I took to mean that "Tireless" was a normal rune too -- or rather, there was an effect that provided 'tirelessness' and when combined with 'regen' had good results -- and which ended up going into both the Master Rune of the Tireless and the Master Rune of Unyielding.

Master Rune of the Tireless: Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen
Master Rune of Unyielding: Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin

Probably the Runesmith was experimenting around with toughness and regeneration, and wound up coming across two closely related Master Runes. The Tireless, and the Unyielding.

And secondly, because when the topic came up... Well, soulcake's "pretty much, yeah" isn't exactly the ultimate of affirmations to IronFist's question, but.
Garlak said:
Actually, is that a reasonable assumption @soulcake? Can we assume that we have, say, a "Rune of Smiting" and "Rune of Conduction" and the like? Can we use a non-Master version of any Master Rune we know? (Though the Rune version of the Master Rune of Conduction one may just be the Rune of Fire.)
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soulcake said:
Tough question, because Master Runes are recreating the effect of multiple Runes in just one Rune usually. Hence the "Master" part of their name, they are basically Runic Combos in one Rune. Like the Master Rune of Conduction is basically Fire, Transference and Force into one Rune as per the narrative mechanics of Runelore I posted a while ago. Arguably you could know a Master Rune and not its constituent parts if its one you learned or made like the Master Rune of Purification but you may have the Runes in your repertoire by virtue of age, but never have known they were the constituent elements of that Master Rune.
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IronFist said:
Does that mean that for combos not involving master runes, we can create a single master rune that does the same thing as the combo? Cos that would be really cool.
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soulcake said:
Pretty much yeah, at least theoretically.
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Also, looking back through that made me come across this bit: "Arguably you could know a Master Rune and not its constituent parts if its one you learned or made like the Master Rune of Purification but you may have the Runes in your repertoire by virtue of age, but never have known they were the constituent elements of that Master Rune."

The Master Rune of Purification might have constituent parts.

And, annoyingly, I dunno if the 'parts' would consist of the Spellbreaking/Eating/Warding/etc line of runes we use for stuff like that. >< Because the Adamant Maker combo itself combines MPurification with Warding and Spellbreaking. So, just... it'd feel a bit weird to come up with a combo and then re-use the Master Rune with those very same runes again to make another combo, you know? But then again, maybe not.

After all, for all we know, maybe MPurification is actually the Conversion (Eating/Breaking/Warding) combo. That would be ironic.

Or maybe it used Valaya's rune somewhere.
 
Thor's Twin said:
Which, unfortunately, causes the Dwarven Runesmith who finally learns said rune to suffer severe mental trauma as the pure knowledge of such an intricate and complex language causes irreversible damage to their psyche, a consequence of which is that they can never again create, or teach others to create, runes.
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Nah. That is not the nature of runecraft.

If anything, the dwarf would gain such understanding of the glittering realm, that they would inevitably find a way to enter it, and invariably never be seen again.

That's actually lore friendly too :)
 
IronFist said:
As a minimum, it would require a higher Tier ingredient, and a long series of research actions :/

But ... it's probably how Runes like Azamar get created. Wonder what went into that monstrosity :V
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The rune of eternity sounds like the sort of thing that requires the runesmith to be really really old to even start making. Prob took a bit of Grugni's beard or something from the beginning of dwarven history.

But yes, if we could get
mountainsouled
into a new master rune that'd be amazing. Imagine that thing with might and impact on it. Course then gotta condense that into a new rune as well. Actually that might just end up being the Master Rune of Grimnir at the end.
 
Garlak said:
Also, looking back through that made me come across this bit: "Arguably you could know a Master Rune and not its constituent parts if its one you learned or made like the Master Rune of Purification but you may have the Runes in your repertoire by virtue of age, but never have known they were the constituent elements of that Master Rune."

The Master Rune of Purification might have constituent parts.

And, annoyingly, I dunno if the 'parts' would consist of the Spellbreaking/Eating/Warding/etc line of runes we use for stuff like that. >< Because the Adamant Maker combo itself combines MPurification with Warding and Spellbreaking. So, just... it'd feel a bit weird to come up with a combo and then re-use the Master Rune with those very same runes again to make another combo, you know? But then again, maybe not.

After all, for all we know, maybe MPurification is actually the Conversion (Eating/Breaking/Warding) combo. That would be ironic.

Or maybe it used Valaya's rune somewhere.
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That is pretty much how its worked with Master Rune of Purification, Adamant Maker, and Ancestral Aegis. They're all connected to the Conversion combo and Warding, Spelleating, and Spellbreaking. Snorri when describing the Master Rune of Purification to the Brotherhood called it a derivative of Spelleating and another rune which he didn't know. E: Possibly two runes to do with a transformation he didn't understand, he wasn't very specific.

Also, one of the easiest ways to make more combos is probably going to be finding ways to seek out related families of Combos since we've kind of done it by accident with Conversion, Adamant Maker and Ancestral Aegis.
 
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Again, I'm not sure MUnyielding was made from MTireless -- it might have, it might not. We don't know for sure, because "Tireless and Regen" versus "Tireless, Regen, Steelskin" sounds like somebody was playing around with similar runes and stumbled upon 2 rune combos.

You could of course be right.

I'm... also not sure that "tiers" are a thing in that way. It's a matter of language and meaning. That is to say, rune combos and Master Runes. Discovering new combos and new Master Runes, might be a matter of being able to come up with new meanings and 'phrases' and 'sentences' in the language. Hence, "a matter of language and meaning."

Even for the only actual usage of the word "Tier" that we actually have, the Tier of Ingredient that a Master Rune requires, does not necessarily have to correspond to how many recursive/layered rune combos happened? Sometimes it's because a Rune is more powerful, or more esoteric, and so just needs a rarer or stronger ingredient.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Master Runes have Tiers now?
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BelligerentGnu said:
Only in my head. You could also call it MMountainsouled a cube rune, maybe? and MUnyielding a square rune.
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Officially, there's no tiers. But Unyielding is speculated to be dervied from a combo involving the Master Rune of Tireless, was worth 6 trade value compared to the other master runes' 4 when we dealing with the brotherhood, and has a higher tier ingredient requirement. So while there's not a formalised tier system, some master runes are certainly more potent and valuable than others.
 
BelligerentGnu said:
Only in my head. You could also call it MMountainsouled a cube rune, maybe? and MUnyielding a square rune.
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NSMS said:
Officially, there's no tiers. But Unyielding is speculated to be dervied from a combo involving the Master Rune of Tireless, was worth 6 trade value compared to the other master runes' 4 when we dealing with the brotherhood, and has a higher tier ingredient requirement. So while there's not a formalised tier system, some master runes are certainly more potent and valuable than others.
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Oh that I was aware of, I just wondered if it had been made official.
 
NSMS said:
Officially, there's no tiers. But Unyielding is speculated to be dervied from a combo involving the Master Rune of Tireless, was worth 6 trade value compared to the other master runes' 4 when we dealing with the brotherhood, and has a higher tier ingredient requirement. So while there's not a formalised tier system, some master runes are certainly more potent and valuable than others.
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Ingredients might also be part of tiers as well? To continue using the Unyielding as an example, it uses a T3 material, but Tireless uses T2. Of course that might just be circumstantial since the rare ingredient in question maybe required for the specificity of the effect and then you get into a chicken and egg scenario.
 
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LaggPlaguedDuke said:
The rune of eternity sounds like the sort of thing that requires the runesmith to be really really old to even start making. Prob took a bit of Grugni's beard or something from the beginning of dwarven history.
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Azamar was created by Grungni, so it's possible he didn't need any ingredients. Although the description of Azamar on the wiki is interesting "Bound within that single rune was all the craftsmanship, all the tenacity and all the iron will of the greatest of the Ancestor Gods of the dwarfs." which could be a neat indicator as to the constituent parts that make the thing up.
 
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