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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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One big problem is that until the research on voidstones is done we don't actually know what we're selling.

For example, it could be a very valuable reagent that supercharges Runes of Daemonslaying, for example, or unlocks the Master Rune of Death. Or the Master Rune of Purification could be modified to be an incredible weapon or armour rune. Or it could only be useful for making adamant. We just don't know.

Remember, this isn't our last and only chance to trade with the Brotherhood. We can exercise a modicum of patience and not hold a fire sale now, and instead make the decision when we're more fully informed and we know more about what the consequences of our decision are.

Voidstone is also only likely to get more valuable with time, not less, if more uses are found for it.

On impatience. I think we're always going to have many more things we could do than time to do them in. There are always going to be ingredients that we've been sitting on for centuries waiting to research, or personal crafting ideas waiting for just one more bit of research. I think we're just going to have to get used to actions or ingredients sitting on the character sheet or turn action list indefinitely.

This particularly applies to things like T5 ingredients, which are probably so rare that we really should try for near perfection. Particularly with soulcake's warning when asked about trading the Heart to the KoTS for another T5 ingredient, that he simply might not be able to find one anytime soon. And the KoTS is an awful lot more likely to be able to detect, travel to, and kill a mythic enemy than Snorri is. We've probably been spoiled so far with access to them, and now the Vortex is formed and magic is being sucked out of the world the chance of finding such ingredients is probably going down as well.
 
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Alratan said:
One big problem is that until the research on voidstones is done we don't actually know what we're selling.

For example, it could be a very valuable reagent that supercharges Runes of Daemonslaying, for example, or unlocks the Master Rune of Death. Or the Master Rune of Purification could be modified to be an incredible weapon or armour rune. Or it could only be useful for making adamant. We just don't know.

Remember, this isn't our last and only chance to trade with the Brotherhood. We can exercise a modicum of patience and not hold a fire sale now, and instead make the decision when we're more fully informed and we know more about what the consequences of our decision are.

Voidstone is also only likely to get more valuable with time, not less, if more uses are found for it.
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In terms of selling something we don't know much about, yeah its kinda eh. But I don't mind that much if people want to go with it anyway after the arguments I raised, and the ones raised counter to mine.

In terms of it growing more valuable, sure that's pretty obviosu, but that's honestly countered by the fact that once we research it we know its properties and what goes into making it. At which point making it becomes much easier. On top of the fact that it has demonstrably been shown as possible to find, even if only on a crit. A large part of its value will come from knowing how it works and from there being able to derive how to get more.

Or to put it another way, I seriously doubt losing 3-4 is going to massively crimp our style in the long run. If we want more, its a case of patience and luck. Patience to use what we learn to go about creating it or hunting it down, and luck to get to that point quickly.

Even if we can't outright create it, we have received demonstration that the events which created it are replicable in some respect, so as battles are fought against daemons we might be able to order or go and find them.
 
Ahh, what a wonderful update to wake up to.

It is unfortunate that Brynna stuck her foot in her mouth in the discussion, but given her conservative bend and our answer to her question, it was probably inevitable. Hopefully, she doesn't feel too bad about it.

Other than that, I am really excited about this knowledge trade with the Brotherhood. I'm not particularly interested in the ideals of allowing more Adamant production throughout the Karaz Ankor, but I love getting more runic knowledge under our belt, and in particular, beefing up our particularly anemic list of Armor Master Runes. And these are some beefy runes we are talking about here.

While we may never use the Inferno master rune, it is better to have it and not need it than to want it and not have it. Additionally, that Blizzard rune looks mighty tasty for KotS armor set, I can imagine some nice potential thematic runic combinations regarding that rune and the other elemental runes for the KotS armor set.

But the big winner I see is that Master rune of the Unyielding. Put that on some adamant armor and you have a really powerful armor set. Adamant already will take a miraculous amount of force to break, and so our prior armor runes felt like hitting diminishing returns really quickly with our good ingredients. But the Unyielding rune, that just seems like a match made in heaven for neigh unbreakable armor. Give the bearer tirelessness, steel skin, and regeneration, and you won't be taking out the dwarf anytime soon.

The help with research also seems pretty amazing. Saving some AP on interesting tech paths is always a nice benefit to being part of a secret Brotherhood with a bent on research and development.
 
BungieONI said:
Or to put it another way, I seriously doubt losing 3-4 is going to massively crimp our style in the long run. If we want more, its a case of patience and luck. Patience to use what we learn to go about creating it or hunting it down, and luck to get to that point quickly.
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Right, but the patience argument applies just as well to Adamant, and indeed even better, because there is a certain time horizon for us to recoup our investment, as opposed to the utterly unpredictable time horizon we have to recoup the sale of Voidstones.
 
BungieONI said:
-- [] 3 progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
-- [] 3 Progress in The Secrets of Light, Cost: 6 points
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But, why? Why do only partial research progress on Voidstone, and leave it still needing 2 actions to complete? Why prioritize saving 1 turn's progress on only Secrets of Light?

[] Plan Get that Voidstone!
-[] Sell: Total 26+4 Base = 30
--[] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
--[] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
--[] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
--[] 2 Voidstone = 6 points
--[] 1 Adamant = 4 points
-[] Buy: Total 30
--[] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
--[] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
--[] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
--[] 5 progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 10 points

Voidstone's super important and mysterious! And our new friends are going to need/be interested in it just as much as we are. So why not do that collaboration we've always been talking about and just get it done, here and now and together?

[] Plan Research Action Economy Strats
-[] Sell: Total 26+4 Base = 30
--[] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
--[] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
--[] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
--[] 2 Voidstone = 6 points
--[] 1 Adamant = 4 points
-[] Buy: Total 30
--[] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
--[] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
--[] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
--[] 1 progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 2 points
--[] 1 progress in The Movement of Things Pt. 2 , Cost: 4 points
--[] 2 progress in The Rune Metal Pt. 5, Cost: 4 points

This plan cuts down on time it takes us to do three different research actions by a decade each. Specifically: For Voidstone, it cuts it down from 5 to 4 actions, therefore needing only 1 turn of 3 actions to complete. For Movement of Things, it does the same: From 5 to 4 actions leaving us with only one turn's worth of research to complete. And for The Rune Metal Pt. 5, it reduces the actions needed from 12 to 10. With our two traits giving us 5 progress for every 3 actions, this cuts down the time needed to research it from an intimidating 3 turns to a more manageable 2 turns.

While we may not do the later two research projects soon, they're both high value projects so it's still very much worth cutting them both down by an entire turn's worth of effort.

Edit: Both these plans are completely invalid, since we gained 2 progress to Voidstone Research last update that I forgot about.
 
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Horium said:
That's not what the option means. They are asking for the right of first refusal not on the entire production of gromril, but for gromril meant for export.

Meaning, surplus gromril, gromril not used by Kraka Drak and/or Snorri himself.

Meaning, if Snorri wants to make gromril armaments (or even toys) for the entire north, he still gets to do it.

Gromril that remains, the surplus, gets shipped south and that surplus is what Brotherhood wants the first claim on.

Having first right to entire production of gromril mined and smelted in Kraka Drak would be worth faaaar more than mere two points.
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Sure, Krakka Drakk would still be able to produce gromril goods for internal consumption at the same rate as previously. I've never said otherwise. It's not immediately clear to me that means Snorri could call dibs on a few carts' worth of the stuff, haul it off to another northern hold and then use it when he browbeats the local smiths into making armaments for the populace, however.

And saying the deal must be limited in scope because the bros aren't offering a lot for it is an unpersuasive argument. The bros are charging the same price for two actions' worth of research help as they are for the master rune of blizzards, so does that mean finishing up the light rune project is objectively "worth" as much as learning a new master rune? No, of course not. The bros are charging way more for the research work because it costs them more than just teaching Snorri a rune they already know. Similarly, they're willing to pay out the nose for Snorri's smelter research because he's the only source for it around, but way stingier when it comes to gromril exports because Snorri's just one out of many dwarfs who could supply them with gromril.

BungieONI said:
In terms of selling something we don't know much about, yeah its kinda eh. But I don't mind that much if people want to go with it anyway after the arguments I raised, and the ones raised counter to mine.

In terms of it growing more valuable, sure that's pretty obviosu, but that's honestly countered by the fact that once we research it we know its properties and what goes into making it. At which point making it becomes much easier. On top of the fact that it has demonstrably been shown as possible to find, even if only on a crit. A large part of its value will come from knowing how it works and from there being able to derive how to get more.

Or to put it another way, I seriously doubt losing 3-4 is going to massively crimp our style in the long run. If we want more, its a case of patience and luck. Patience to use what we learn to go about creating it or hunting it down, and luck to get to that point quickly.

Even if we can't outright create it, we have received demonstration that the events which created it are replicable in some respect, so as battles are fought against daemons we might be able to order or go and find them.
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I'm not married to the idea of trading away the voidstones. I'd be perfectly fine with a variant of your plan that drops the research help on the bros' side and the material trade-in on Snorri's. All the same, it's useful to keep in mind that trading voidstones will have knock-on benefits beyond just serving as barter material. It's not like Kraggi's going to grind the stones into dust and mix it with his blow; any stones the bros get their hands on is going to be put to use making adamant. If anything, you could argue the dwarf nation as a whole benefits from some voidstone being put in circulation instead of Snorri putting the whole pile next to the troll heart inside his giant cupboard full of cool shit he won't get around to make anything of for another 500 years or so.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is I think it's pretty reductive to say a voidstone trade is just sacrificing long-term value for an immediate benefit.
 
Derpmind said:
But, why? Why do only partial research progress on Voidstone, and leave it still needing 2 actions to complete? Why prioritize saving 1 turn's progress on only Secrets of Light?
...
Voidstone's super important and mysterious! And our new friends are going to need/be interested in it just as much as we are. So why not do that collaboration we've always been talking about and just get it done, here and now and together?
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Presumably because of this:
soulcake said:
Gain:
- Epiphany! Death, magic and daemons. There's something there. 1d3+ 1 =2 Progress to Voidstones, New Totals: [Cost: 5 -2 =3 actions]
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It only costs 3 actions now to get the voidstone research. This makes it much more efficient to only get 3 research help on Voidstones and work on something else as well.
 
Why not just sell more adamant, the stuff is renewable. Instead of selling voidstones sell our stock of Adamant, we can get more.
 
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Derpmind said:
But, why? Why do only partial research progress on Voidstone, and leave it still needing 2 actions to complete? Why prioritize saving 1 turn's progress on only Secrets of Light?

[] Plan Get that Voidstone!
-[] Sell: Total 26+4 Base = 30
--[] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
--[] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
--[] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
--[] 2 Voidstone = 6 points
--[] 1 Adamant = 4 points
-[] Buy: Total 30
--[] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
--[] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
--[] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
--[] 5 progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 10 points

Voidstone's super important and mysterious! And our new friends are going to need/be interested in it just as much as we are. So why not do that collaboration we've always been talking about and just get it done, here and now and together?

[] Plan Research Action Economy Strats
-[] Sell: Total 26+4 Base = 30
--[] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
--[] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
--[] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
--[] 2 Voidstone = 6 points
--[] 1 Adamant = 4 points
-[] Buy: Total 30
--[] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
--[] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
--[] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
--[] 1 progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 2 points
--[] 1 progress in The Movement of Things Pt. 2 , Cost: 4 points
--[] 2 progress in The Rune Metal Pt. 5, Cost: 4 points

This plan cuts down on time it takes us to do research by a decade each. Specifically: For Voidstone, it cuts it down from 5 to 4 actions, therefore needing only 1 turn of 3 actions to complete. For Movement of Things, it does the same: From 5 to 4 actions leaving us with only one turn's worth of 3 research actions to complete. And for The Rune Metal Pt. 5, it reduces the actions needed from 12 to 10. With our two traits giving us 5 progress for every 3 actions, this cuts down the time needed to research it from 3 turns to only 2 turns.

While we may not do the later two research projects soon, they're both high value projects so it's still worth cutting them down by an entire turn's worth of effort.
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As Thor's Twin pointed out.

Alratan said:
On impatience. I think we're always going to have many more things we could do than time to do them in. There are always going to be ingredients that we've been sitting on for centuries waiting to research, or personal crafting ideas waiting for just one more bit of research. I think we're just going to have to get used to actions or ingredients sitting on the character sheet or turn action list indefinitely.

This particularly applies to things like T5 ingredients, which are probably so rare that we really should try for near perfection. Particularly with soulcake's warning when asked about trading the Heart to the KoTS for another T5 ingredient, that he simply might not be able to find one anytime soon. And the KoTS is an awful lot more likely to be able to detect, travel to, and kill a mythic enemy than Snorri is. We've probably been spoiled so far with access to them, and now the Vortex is formed and magic is being sucked out of the world the chance of finding such ingredients is probably going down as well.
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You know an interesting consequence of the end of the first paragraph where you describe actions that can sit indefinitely because they're waiting for just one more bit of research and T5 creations being so rare that we should really try for near perfection. Those overlap greatly and effectively result in logic which concludes with "wait on T5s indefinitely".

What's the point in that? Its a pretty silly idea tbh since it means nothing gets done at T5 level except by accident with lesser materials and an insane combo or something.

I'm not sure if you actually mean that, but its basically what your argument amounts to at its root. The more time we spend not making something, the higher the opportunity cost gets. Not only for that item, but any other items we could have been making in the time and with the effort spent on preparing for this singular thing. The reverse also applies to research. For specific items it might be best to lean into this duality and spend that time, but as a general sentiment I can't agree with all of it.

Particularly the personal crafting ideas bit. Write ins are pretty rare in this quest, unless you want to continuously come up with them to prove your point. At which result I'd be happy, since we're probably creating interesting stuff semi-regularly depending on the average time it takes to make the suggestions.

To put it in a TLDR, I don't agree with the general idea because its basically self-fulfilling because it dampens interest in ya know. Actually putting out the fires because it just goes "Ah, they'll always be there." I don't want to play that game in this game, and I know I don't have to because we have cleared out most of the Requests bin except for ignorable write ins and then done research.
Andmeuths said:
Right, but the patience argument applies just as well to Adamant, and indeed even better, because there is a patient time horizon for us to recoup our investment, as opposed to the utterly unpredictable time horizon we lose by selling Voidstones.
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Sure. This is one of the reasons I initially had the idea of selling Adamant more than Voidstone, as I explained earlier. I've put up a plan for it that sells voidstone because some interesting points were raised about "how much of this are we going to use in 300 years... really?" and other people's comments about amounts of voidstone they like to sell.


bird yells said:
I'm not married to the idea of trading away the voidstones. I'd be perfectly fine with a variant of your plan that drops the research help on the bros' side and the material trade-in on Snorri's. All the same, it's useful to keep in mind that trading voidstones will have knock-on benefits beyond just serving as barter material. It's not like Kraggi's going to grind the stones into dust and mix it with his blow; any stones the bros get their hands on is going to be put to use making adamant. If anything, you could argue the dwarf nation as a whole benefits from some voidstone being put in circulation instead of Snorri putting the whole pile next to the troll heart inside his giant cupboard full of cool shit he won't get around to make anything of for another 500 years or so.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is I think it's pretty reductive to say a voidstone trade is just sacrificing long-term value for an immediate benefit.
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Yeah, pretty much.
 
BungieONI said:
In terms of selling something we don't know much about, yeah its kinda eh. But I don't mind that much if people want to go with it anyway after the arguments I raised, and the ones raised counter to mine.

In terms of it growing more valuable, sure that's pretty obviosu, but that's honestly countered by the fact that once we research it we know its properties and what goes into making it. At which point making it becomes much easier. On top of the fact that it has demonstrably been shown as possible to find, even if only on a crit. A large part of its value will come from knowing how it works and from there being able to derive how to get more.

Or to put it another way, I seriously doubt losing 3-4 is going to massively crimp our style in the long run. If we want more, its a case of patience and luck. Patience to use what we learn to go about creating it or hunting it down, and luck to get to that point quickly.

Even if we can't outright create it, we have received demonstration that the events which created it are replicable in some respect, so as battles are fought against daemons we might be able to order or go and find them.
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So far, from what we know, it requires, death, magic, and greater daemons (or a mortal ascending to that status). We currently can't produce magic on demand (that's probably gated behind the Rune of Sorcery or a very trustworthy elven archmage), and the incidence of greater daemons around has just had a calamitous fall. Also, daemons can voluntarily discorporate and go home if they want, unless bound with (usually dark) magic. Unless we want to invent daemonsmithing to bind them in place, or can persuade the aforementioned archmage to develop daemon summoning and containment rituals, I'd expect us to be pretty out of luck on that front once word starts getting around the (quasi/atemporal) Aethyr of what we're trying to do, as the daemons will just bugger off when they spot us coming.

As a result, I wouldn't expect us to be able to make Voidstone anything like as 'easily' as was previously possible.

Now, it's also possible that there's a battlefield strewn with the stuff to collect that we can make a detour to on the way home, but we also don't know about that.

As a side note, I expect that the research into the voidstone to be more about how to use it, not how to make it, as the Greedy One's Heart research was, although I could be wrong on that. Until we perform the research, we won't know though.

What I really don't get is the immense urgency here. We're explicitly told in the update that we will be trading with the Brotherhood in the same way in future. We very likely won't get chance to make items with all of these runes before the next opportunity to trade. We're also pretty unlikely to use the fruits of all the research we're getting, as they're probably part of long research chains. What's the point in being in such a rush and spending so much now when there's a fair chance it will be worth more in future, and there quite possibly will be more that we want to purchase from them as they complete projects based on what we tell them today? This seems to be being treated like a unique opportunity that we need to maximise what we get from it, rather than the first in a series of opportunities that we should be maximising the total return from.
 
Basically, there is a plan out there that has no Adamant nor Voidstone being sold. Oddly, it isn't being discussed, even though we don't have to purchase everything at once.
 
Alratan said:
What I really don't get is the immense urgency here. We're explicitly told in the update that we will be trading with the Brotherhood in the same way in future. We very likely won't get chance to make items with all of these runes before the next opportunity to trade. We're also pretty unlikely to use the fruits of all the research we're getting, as they're probably part of long research chains. What's the point in being in such a rush and spending so much now when there's a fair chance it will be worth more in future, and there quite possibly will be more that we want to purchase from them as they complete projects based on what we tell them today? This seems to be being treated like a unique opportunity that we need to maximise what we get from it, rather than the first in a series of opportunities that we should be maximising the total return from.
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Because frankly on my end its not immediate urgency.

Immediate urgency would look something along the lines of "Dump literally everything into Rune Metal" or something similar. I'm looking at a fun deal in the face and going "Sure" and also attempting to form a plan that appeals to people.

I mean when vote time comes around, I'm going to post all/most of my plans so far suggested and adjusted for proper pricing math, like I usually do.
 
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BungieONI said:
What's the point in that? Its a pretty silly idea tbh since it means nothing gets done at T5 level except by accident with lesser materials and an insane combo or something.

I'm not sure if you actually mean that, but its basically what your argument amounts to at its root. The more time we spend not making something, the higher the opportunity cost gets. Not only for that item, but any other items we could have been making in the time and with the effort spent on preparing for this singular thing. The reverse also applies to research. For specific items it might be best to lean into this duality and spend that time, but as a general sentiment I can't agree with all of it.

Particularly the personal crafting ideas bit. Write ins are pretty rare in this quest, unless you want to continuously come up with them to prove your point. At which result I'd be happy, since we're probably creating interesting stuff semi-regularly depending on the average time it takes to make the suggestions.

To put it in a TLDR, I don't agree with the general idea because its basically self-fulfilling because it dampens interest in ya know. Actually putting out the fires because it just goes "Ah, they'll always be there." I don't want to play that game in this game, and I know I don't have to because we have cleared out most of the Requests bin except for ignorable write ins and then done research.
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It means that mythic items only get made in mythic circumstances, which seems like a feature rather than a bug to me. They're more special if they're the result of centuries if concerted efforts building up multiple strands into one whole that's greater than the sum of its parts.

For example, something like a super-gronti based on the complete Mind of Things and Movement of Things research as well as deep investment into adamant production seems like a much better monument to our achievements than bashing out a gromril gronti now without finishing those research chains, and knowing for sure it's using runes that are flawed compared to those we could make in a couple of decades of effort.

I see crafting a mythic object as a major milestone in Snorri's life, the marker that he's hit the big (Ok, medium sized) leagues. I want that moment to be the culmination of as much of what came before as possible.

The same would be true, to a lesser extent, of the subsequent mythic objects he makes. They're, ideally, the culmination of an arc in his development of a runesmith and indeed, a person.
 
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Alratan said:
It means that mythic items only get made in mythic circumstances, which seems like a feature rather than a bug to me. They're more special if they're the result of centuries if concerted efforts building up multiple strands into one whole that's greater than the sum of its parts.

For example, something like a super-gronti based on the complete Mind of Things and Movement of Things research as well as deep investment into adamant production seems like a much better monument to our achievements than bashing out a gromril gronti now without finishing those research chains, and knowing for sure it could

I see crafting a mythic object as a major milestone in Snorri's life, the marker that he's hit the big (Ok, medium sized) leagues. I want that moment to be the culmination of as much of what came before as possible.

The same would be true, to a lesser extent, of the subsequent mythic objects he makes. They're, ideally, the culmination of an arc in his development of a runesmith and indeed, a person.
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Okay? I want the same thing, I just have a different standard than you do.

We already did the first step of that in my mind with Trollslayer, made another with Wyrmguard, made another with Dragon's Spite and the Retaliator, and so on and so forth. I think that the action of making lesser items as touchstones along the way can lead into further mythos. Obviously people are going to use them and build stories around them, and that's how a mythos develops. This is included with research to, because Snorri's skills must grow in order to make better things and move on to better realms of skill.
 
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Beyond the point about long term efficiency/effectiveness, it seems somewhat dissatisfying to me to enlist their assistance in unrelated research. Getting the Brotherhood to help with voidstone research and the next tier of runemetal seems much more narratively appropriate. Particularly as it's possible that Snorri's particular insight into the pure white third form of gromril might be something they don't share, but they may have their own different insights into it that would be valuable to share, possibly producing more than the sum of its parts, or potentially producing something interesting to trade for at the next opportunity.

If we buy ten points of research, I think I'd prefer six on voidstone and four on runemetal, if only for this reason. I can also see a long shot bet on narrative benefits where we go all in on the research and don't get all the master runes and instead complete Voidstone and the next level of Runemetal. Having the Brotherhood collaborate rather than work independently to develop tier three gromril would be a pretty good precedent. Probably too much of a risk though.

bird yells said:
I'm not married to the idea of trading away the voidstones. I'd be perfectly fine with a variant of your plan that drops the research help on the bros' side and the material trade-in on Snorri's. All the same, it's useful to keep in mind that trading voidstones will have knock-on benefits beyond just serving as barter material. It's not like Kraggi's going to grind the stones into dust and mix it with his blow; any stones the bros get their hands on is going to be put to use making adamant. If anything, you could argue the dwarf nation as a whole benefits from some voidstone being put in circulation instead of Snorri putting the whole pile next to the troll heart inside his giant cupboard full of cool shit he won't get around to make anything of for another 500 years or so.
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Snorri is demonstrating this turn that dwarf runelords have few if any compunctions about grinding down non-renewable ingredients for immediate term research bonuses, so that's not something we can completely rely on, although it does seem likely they'll make smelters.
 
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If we just wanted to max out how much we can get out of them we would only give bars and keep the process for making them to ourselves. I mean right now they are willing to trade masterrune for just one bar. I expect that might change when adminte becomes more common. Might even become the standard unit of exchange between rune smiths.
 
I am a bit leery about selling all the adamant bars, since stockpiling it is very difficult and time-consuming at the moment.

1 bar of adamant per decade is somewhat of a mean supply when a single dwarf armour requires 3 bars.

Even if we disregard the coming turn that will likely be consumed by the griffin king armor, most of the new important weapons, talismans, armors we make in future (for Snorri, for the Griffin Princes, a suitable weapon for Prince Gloin, etc.) we will presumably want at least partly made out of adamant.
 
Horium said:
I am a bit leery about selling all the adamant bars, since stockpiling it is very difficult and time-consuming at the moment.
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Right, but it is certain in terms of both consumption and income, unlike Voidstones, for which we don't even know how much we need down the line.

Either way you are paying for time with resources that cannot be replenished as far as we know, by trading Voidstones. All options of selling items almost certainly has a trade-off in time, the problem is that we don't know:

1. What is our future consumption of Voidstone. The "would we use our stockpile in 300 years" argument for selling Voidstones is built on suppositions over unknowables right now.
2. How likely is it that we are able to replenish Voidstones with time investments, and if so, what kinds of time investments, as we proceed down the Voidstone tree.

Basically, the Voidstone trade could be a good deal, or it could be a terrible deal that is a massive tax on impatience. We don't know either way, but if there isn't a need to buy everything right now, why rush to buy everything?
 
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BungieONI said:
[] Plan Void and Adamant Research
- [] Sell: Total 29+4 Base = 33
-- [] Take on [Simple] Request: A Better Smelter = 6 Points
-- [] Adamant Smelter Blueprint = 6 Points
-- [] The Master Rune of Snorri Gift Giver/Purification = 4 Points
-- [] 3 Voidstone = 9 points
-- [] 1 Adamant = 4 points
- [] Buy: Total 32
-- [] Master Rune of Infernos [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Pyrestrike), Cost 4 points
-- [] Master Rune of Blizzards [Armour](More potent, but unshareable Hailmantle), Cost 4 points
-- [] Master Rune of the Tireless [Armour](Bearer is Tireless and Minor Regen), Cost: 4 points
-- [] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour](Bearer has Regeneration, Tireless and Steelskin), Cost: 6 points
-- [] Rune of the Tireless/ Strollaz's Rune (Increases endurance of formation), Cost: 2 points
-- [] 3 progress in Voidstone Research, Cost: 6 points
-- [] 3 Progress in The Secrets of Light, Cost: 6 points
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This seems like a good idea. Giving out our knowledge means it is less likely to be lost and also increasing adamant production without needing continuous dragon blood (a rare component) can only do good things for the rest of the dwarves. Also getting all the runes is a big time save as well as expanding our repertoire. I have seen some suggestions already for getting Adamant armor for ourselves using Unyielding, I am mixed, I do want to see what Rune Metal Pt5 gets us and how that material is because if it is enough of an upgrade than waiting for the metal above adamant + rune of the unyielding + 2 more seems like fun times.

Though I did notice they are calling Adamant True Gromil, I wonder if they do not realize there is another tier. If they do not than Rune Metal Pt 5 just became a very important piece of research as it might be up to us to get that knowledge out there.

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Hmm, well for next turn we could do 3 actions on KotS armor + 2 on Rune Metal Pt 5, then 3 and 3 the following 2 turns to finish that off (and likely unlock 1 bar of the next tier of metal and a pt 6 project), then again with it likely being a pt 6 project going 3 turns of 3 actions means the overflow will go into reduction of pt 6 and that would be 15 actions from 9 instead of 12 actions from 8 so 3 overflow to make pt 6 quicker.
 
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I'm down with selling them one bar of Adamant, mainly because I expect one of their first priorities to be comparing the Adamant our method makes with their supply. I don't expect there to be much difference, if any, but I can't see them not doing said research, and it's better if they can make a start on it without having to make their own smelter and wait for it to start production.

EDIT: And giving them some voidstone also makes sense if we want them to help out with our research into it.
 
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What I'm getting more excited about is working with the Brotherhood on getting research help with some of our longer research chains, in particular the Rune Metal tree. With the Brotherhood's help, we can reduce the amount of time it takes to go up the next level considerably.
 
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