RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Japanime]

So...now that we know what the Heart of Kholek did for the Griffons, since the King of the Skies consumed it, does anyone want to finally get started on armoring up the Griffon King next turn, at least in concept? (Yes, I know we're going to be rather busy next turn, as I we'll obviously be attending the Conference, with our master likely going as well, and probably trying to unearth the Springs eventually to help heal everyone up again)

 

[BungieONI]

So...now that we know what the Heart of Kholek did for the Griffons, since the King of the Skies consumed it, does anyone want to finally get started on armoring up the Griffon King next turn, at least in concept? (Yes, I know we're going to be rather busy next turn, as I we'll obviously be attending the Conference, with our master likely going as well, and probably trying to unearth the Springs eventually to help heal everyone up again)

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We'll have four actions next turn due to the Conclave and what I want to do is hunt for apprentices, take the request, exchange more info with Yorri for more prods and do some Secrets of Light research with him to open up that chain and finish the progress we got.

Then the turn after that I want to study the Dragon Ogres, finish that, and start combo testing for the King's armor.

 

[Japanime]

We'll have four actions next turn due to the Conclave and what I want to do is hunt for apprentices, take the request, exchange more info with Yorri for more prods and do some Secrets of Light research with him to open up that chain and finish the progress we got.

Then the turn after that I want to study the Dragon Ogres, finish that, and start combo testing for the King's armor.

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That sounds about fair, I'm rather curious what new rune we will unlock with the Secrets of Light research, though I hope that we can maybe spend some time to ward the Aeries, to thank the Griffons for all that they have done and are doing.

 

[ArchAIngel]

So, late night stupid thought.

Birds. Griffons are... basically big huge weird birds.

We know they like shiny shiny gubbins.

We have shiny gubbins: YES due to being a Runelord, or at least middling grade shiny gubbins like gold, jewels, etc that the average Griffon would want.

Griffon feathers are a ingredient for a new Master Rune.

Birds naturally shed their feathers and grow new ones as they age, it's called... molting or sommat like that.

Could a simple action to get "T2 Griffon Feathers: Infinite" work out?

 

[BungieONI]

That sounds about fair, I'm rather curious what new rune we will unlock with the Secrets of Light research, though I hope that we can maybe spend some time to ward the Aeries, to thank the Griffons for all that they have done and are doing.

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Yeah my secondary plan which I'll also put up is hunting for apprentices, two actions on Aeries for overflow purposes, info exchange with Yorri.

That'd let turn 22 be all about combo testing the King's armor, doing Dragon Ogre research and maybe poking the weaponized wings thing. Or Secrets of Light. *Shrug*

Birds naturally shed their feathers and grow new ones as they age, it's called... molting or sommat like that.

Could a simple action to get "T2 Griffon Feathers: Infinite" work out?

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I don't think it necessarily even needs to be an Action? They're so close and its a pretty logical idea to occur to Snorri so I could see it happening automatically like the Troll parts stuff did.

 

[argenten]

Yeah, rather insightful questions honestly.

We know that at least the Production backlong can end because we've done it. The only reason we had things in it at one point was because I made write ins for it and apprentice work, which isn't even a Snorri action. And thank god for that, since I've been in too many quests where that flat is not possible.

Research wise with our two projects that we completed this turn it looks like stuff that has to do with poking Runes opens into chains and tech trees. And we know Secrets of Light opens into a chain from previous discussion with Soulcake. So we have five confirmed chains, Rune Metal, Diction, Movement of Things, Mind of Things, Secrets of Light.

And then we have the Understand a Master Rune which seems relatively limited. I'd hope it wouldn't be open ended into a chain, if it did open into one I can't see any reason to ever spend through an entire chain. Bluntly too much time invested for honestly limited gain in my mind.

Then we have five material science projects, but those should be relatively short since its testing what the thing does when used as an ingredient in Runes.

I think we can cut our Research category in half relatively straightforwardly, but the chains will take multiple centuries if you add all their times together. Among other things I expect Rune Metal to take up to ten parts and for Movement of Things and Mind of Things to be similar. This is because Rune Metal and Movement of Things are central features of pillars of Runecraft, Gromril and Gronti.

Now holding off apprentices until Yorri leaves is a reasonable argument for basically the reasons you lay out in my mind. I still plan on getting some next turn if I can pass it through the thread, but it absolutely makes sense to just focus on Yorri research.

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This has been my reasoning for having a system set up, we are never going to run out of things to do and we won't always have time to take apprentices, nor should we. But having a reasonable on again off again set up will allow us to get apprentices while leaving us room for major projects or events.

 

[Fezzes]

Snorri should try and pick up Yorri's habit of taking breaks. Breaks in work are useful as fuck to let your mental energy recharge, and it'd help ease some of the "but what about character interaction" questions around apprentices.

..I feel like such a Nu-Age hippie talking about mental energy. Something something open your psychic eye, maaaaan.


Not taking apprentices while we do some research in a calmer period isn't a slippery slope to never taking an apprentice again. For the time we've not had an apprentice, we've been more or less jumping from dowry to commissioned armour to the siege. We've not actually had some good research time, and I find the research bits interesting. I think "let's do some research for a few turns before we pick up an apprentice again" is a fair request, and the vast majority of people here are reasonable people who can understand that other people in the thread want things that aren't what they want, and they can cooperate to make everyone happy.

my secondary plan

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If you go ahead with putting multiple plans in one post, please curtail the actions so that it's easier to read. The last round of voting when that happened was very difficult to parse.

 

[argenten]

Yeah my secondary plan which I'll also put up is hunting for apprentices, two actions on Aeries for overflow purposes, info exchange with Yorri.

That'd let turn 22 be all about combo testing the King's armor, doing Dragon Ogre research and maybe poking the weaponized wings thing. Or Secrets of Light. *Shrug*

Click to shrink...

That sounds like a good plan

 

[BungieONI]

If you go ahead with putting multiple plans in one post, please curtail the actions so that it's easier to read. The last round of voting when that happened was very difficult to parse.

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I usually do cut out the descriptions for that very reason, though blanked on doing that for that vote cycle. It makes it way easier to handle plan manipulations usually.

 

[argenten]

Snorri should try and pick up Yorri's habit of taking breaks. Breaks in work are useful as fuck to let your mental energy recharge, and it'd help ease some of the "but what about character interaction" questions around apprentices.

..I feel like such a Nu-Age hippie talking about mental energy. Something something open your psychic eye, maaaaan.


Not taking apprentices while we do some research in a calmer period isn't a slippery slope to never taking an apprentice again. For the time we've not had an apprentice, we've been more or less jumping from dowry to commissioned armour to the siege. We've not actually had some good research time, and I find the research bits interesting. I think "let's do some research for a few turns before we pick up an apprentice again" is a fair request, and the vast majority of people here are reasonable people who can understand that other people in the thread want things that aren't what they want, and they can cooperate to make everyone happy.

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Exactly! We're a dwarf entering the Golden Age, we have time to switch between as situations allow.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

Any argument that we can just get apprentices later has the natural rebuttal that we can do research later. Only thats not true either whats really being said is that you want to devote 100% of our time to research instead and that those of us wanting a single action a turn on apprentices should get nothing.

 

[argenten]

Any argument that we can just get apprentices later has the natural rebuttal that we can do research later. Only thats not true either whats really being said is that you want to devote 100% of our time to research instead and that those of us wanting a single action a turn on apprentices should get nothing.

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I would say there are some that aren't interested in it and have stated so and that's fine, I respect that and those that expressed that whilst being polite and open. But there's been at least a couple of people that go out of their way to patronize, dismiss, talk down, or even outright swear when trying to poo-poo the idea of getting apprentices and whilst I have no time or desire to interact with those people and have already ignored them, we shouldn't just smear anyone not interested with apprenticeships with this broad brush if that makes sense.

 

[DragonParadox]

Any argument that we can just get apprentices later has the natural rebuttal that we can do research later. Only thats not true either whats really being said is that you want to devote 100% of our time to research instead and that those of us wanting a single action a turn on apprentices should get nothing.

Click to shrink...

There are such things as limited time opportunities like Yore's presence, is an apprentice action worth more than one more action of Yori synergy, keeping in mind that he will not pass this way for centuries?

That does not seem to be an open ended question.

 

[Japanime]

Yeah my secondary plan which I'll also put up is hunting for apprentices, two actions on Aeries for overflow purposes, info exchange with Yorri.

That'd let turn 22 be all about combo testing the King's armor, doing Dragon Ogre research and maybe poking the weaponized wings thing. Or Secrets of Light. *Shrug*

Click to shrink...

That sounds like a good secondary plan, as long as we do something for the Griffons I'll feel happy. Though I do think with us travelling to the Conclave, we will likely increase the chances for Yorri leaving again as his wanderlust takes hold, so we should keep that in mind.

 

[Fezzes]

Any argument that we can just get apprentices later has the natural rebuttal that we can do research later. Only thats not true either whats really being said is that you want to devote 100% of our time to research instead and that those of us wanting a single action a turn on apprentices should get nothing.

Click to shrink...

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree and I hope I can convince you of my perspective. There are people who dislike the apprentices, for varying reasons. I can equally say that they get nothing if we always have an apprentice. But that's not my main thrust.

All or nothing is just the way this quest's optimisation goes. Splitting and lessening actions just means an objectively less effective turn. And while I like narrative over mechanics, that has limits. Therefore, yeah, I want to devote 100% of our actions to research for a couple of turns before going back to apprentices. You're not even just getting outright nothing. You're getting nothing for a few turns, after which you get everything for a dozenish turns, after which you get nothing for a few turns, and so on. On balance, it can be said that you're getting more than the other side of this debate, that in general wants maximum freedom without apprentices locking up our actions, is.

 

[argenten]

There are such things as limited time opportunities like Yore's presence, is an apprentice action worth more than one more action of Yori synergy, keeping in mind that he will not pass this way for centuries?

That does not seem to be an open ended question.

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Which is valid, we shouldn't ignore time sensitive things like having Snorri here or other things like that, we didn't for the Demon invasion and it paid off with the defenses for example and the trees. But i think the issue is with people that aren't willing to give a definitive time frame for when the time sensitive stuff is done what will be done after that or how we approach the situation in general so we dont have these exhaustive and quite frankly tail chasing arguments every time we've finished training apprentices and may possibly take more.

 

[Alratan]

The current argument I see for holding off on apprentices, for now, is based on the fact that Yorri is around, which represents a unique opportunity for Snorri to advance his craft further, working together with the wisdom of his master to master many topics that would otherwise take him longer by himself, without a teacher to work with. I buy this particular argument, but I am very uncomfortable with open-ended "we'd do it later" arguments, since color me skeptical if our research backlog ever disappears, or even shrinks.

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The current period of being the Last Runesmith of the North and so having a particular responsibility (and opportunity) to set a good example about training apprentices into runesmith culture is hopefully actually unique.

Master Yorri doesn't seem in any danger of dying, so even if he goes he can come back. He can come back multiple times. We shouldn't be dealing with the consequences of an apocalypse multiple times.

Just look at the section of the update talking about how many runesmiths must have died. Snorri is their only surviving high priest and guiodmaster. When presented with that disaster, how can he not feel that something must be done, and he's in the best position to start it?

I'd also hope that taking an apprentice will be meaningful for the conclave. It indicates something of Snorri's stance, which may be relevant given his mythic deed and refining of adamant. He may be young, but I doubt the Last Runesmith of the North is insignificant.

 

[Sieje]

Does Snorri know, or have any way of finding out, how his brother and the rest of his clan have fared through all of this? Pretty concerned about Jorri given the casualties the dwarfs suffered and his job as a travelling merchant.

 

[kinglugia]

I'm pretty sure trying to do that to a dwarf would be grounds for justifiable homicide for anyone short of an Ancestor Gods (it's 20 years for them).

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Poor Grimnir. He's not gonna know the taste of real Dawi brew for the rest of his life, so long as he is busy going Rip n' Tear on the daemons.

And then we have the Understand a Master Rune which seems relatively limited. I'd hope it wouldn't be open ended into a chain, if it did open into one I can't see any reason to ever spend through an entire chain. Bluntly too much time invested for honestly limited gain in my mind.

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Do you think the sheer number of research chains being completed was why the Burudin and the Brotherhood of Dron are composed of really skilled Runesmiths?

 

[argenten]

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree and I hope I can convince you of my perspective. There are people who dislike the apprentices, for varying reasons. I can equally say that they get nothing if we always have an apprentice. But that's not my main thrust.

All or nothing is just the way this quest's optimisation goes. Splitting and lessening actions just means an objectively less effective turn. And while I like narrative over mechanics, that has limits. Therefore, yeah, I want to devote 100% of our actions to research for a couple of turns before going back to apprentices. You're not even just getting outright nothing. You're getting nothing for a few turns, after which you get everything for a dozenish turns, after which you get nothing for a few turns, and so on. On balance, it can be said that you're getting more than the other side of this debate, that in general wants maximum freedom without apprentices locking up our actions, is.

Click to shrink...

Right, because Snorri had a couple times with the first batch we got to see where he'd get lost in his work and the apprentices basically had to teach themselves. As good a teacher as Snorri is...that's not a good thing, hence why he took the hits with rep and monies for the times he got lost in his projects.

We should arguably separate big projects and apprentice training to focus on either, which is why (apologies for repeating) that a system of switching focus would be best.

 

[argenten]

The current period of being the Last Runesmith of the North and so having a particular responsibility (and opportunity) to set a good example about training apprentices into runesmith culture is hopefully actually unique.

Master Yorri doesn't seem in any danger of dying, so even if he goes he can come back. He can come back multiple times. We shouldn't be dealing with the consequences of an apocalypse multiple times.

Just look at the section of the update talking about how many runesmiths must have died. Snorri is their only surviving high priest and guiodmaster. When presented with that disaster, how can he not feel that something must be done, and he's in the best position to start it?

I'd also hope that taking an apprentice will be meaningful for the conclave. It indicates something of Snorri's stance, which may be relevant given his mythic deed and refining of adamant. He may be young, but I doubt the Last Runesmith of the North is insignificant.

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With all due respect, while I can agree that taking apprentices can help...I feel like your take is due to a lot of assumptions and personal projections. We already got to see how he feels about being the only Runelord left for example and we have no evidence that the conclave will see the training of apprentices in either a good or bad light. Heck, they might say he should hold off till the other Runelords are chosen so they can organize how masterless apprentices might be given new teachers or other possibilities like that.

We have too much that we don't know about to assume stuff like that or anything else really.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

There are such things as limited time opportunities like Yore's presence, is an apprentice action worth more than one more action of Yori synergy, keeping in mind that he will not pass this way for centuries?

That does not seem to be an open ended question.

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I can accept that Yorris presence does raise a question regarding that but personally I view taking an apprentice right now as similar to the idea of rebuilding the outer walls of our hold.

 

[argenten]

I can accept that Yorris presence does raise a question regarding that but personally I view taking an apprentice right now as similar to the idea of rebuilding the outer walls of our hold.

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True...but we didn't need to be involved with the walls and in fact not only did Snorri prove superfluous to the walls...the Ancestor i think used them as either examples or inspiration for his book (probably the former), so they don't exactly fit for a comparison.

 

[BungieONI]

Right, because Snorri had a couple times with the first batch we got to see where he'd get lost in his work and the apprentices basically had to teach themselves. As good a teacher as Snorri is...that's not a good thing, hence why he took the hits with rep and monies for the times he got lost in his projects.

We should arguably separate big projects and apprentice training to focus on either, which is why (apologies for repeating) that a system of switching focus would be best.

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Technically there was no actual loss except in Snorri's own personal opinion of himself. Its worth it to be specific in instances like this I think.

I haven't read the parts of the thread where you talked about a switching system, so what are your thoughts?

Do you think the sheer number of research chains being completed was why the Burudin and the Brotherhood of Dron are composed of really skilled Runesmiths?

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Quite possibly yeah, they've gone down a bunch of chains and come out of it really skilled at things.

Also, millennia of combo testing I expect.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

True...but we didn't need to be involved with the walls and in fact not only did Snorri prove superfluous to the walls...the Ancestor i think used them as either examples or inspiration for his book (probably the former), so they don't exactly fit for a comparison.

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Sure but I'm not talking about us rebuilding the walls, but the only people that can take runesmith apprentices are Master runesmiths and Runelords. I'm highly skeptical that there exists sufficient capacity in the north to train all the potential candidates and I don't want them to have to travel south as it's likely they will stay there.