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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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BungieONI said:
@UlseDovThur in terms of your comment that we should make proper use of the Heart's properties, its regeneration and endless constant power as described when we finished researching it, I fully agree with the concept. The particulars however differ since in my mind the Gronti can use both, but after consideration I've concluded you can also make proper use of those properties by providing Dwarfs with endless vitality so that they do not tire in battle from their wounds and the regeneration to heal those wounds.

Or to put it another way I think that saying the Gronti is the only thing that best uses the Heart is perhaps imprecise, even if a Gronti still outright benefits in its direct operation from the Heart.
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And we can't do that with a Healing Banner that doesn't use the Heart? I also disagree that the Hearts Endless energy and its regeneration are at all equal. Snorri learned of its regeneration just from a quick examination but it's the Endless energy that the research into it revealed.

The regeneration is a secondary aspect of the Heart, a byproduct, not the Primary one and using a T5 material in something that doesn't make full use of its main feature, the one that was revealed by the research we put into it, is, to me, a blatant waste.

The way I see it is that the Heart is a material tailor made for a Gronti. The Master Rune of animations normal ingredient is a Troll Heart. The Grontis main flaw is the power requirements. It just fits too well.

Something that's not a Gronti that I would consider using it on would be something like the Adamant Forge. It's main restriction is it's power requirements and is a nice fit for the Heart to me.
 
If we get the option to do things with Yorri rather we spend the turn doing research with Yorri since that would likely be able to greatly speed up our research and finally clear things off that we have been putting of for dozens of turns.
 
Okay, with the Armor combo @BungieONI suggested, the Gryphon Armor looks like this:

Weapon Slot 1(Claws): Master Rune of Currents, Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Spellbreaking
The wind that cuts through everything, magical and mundane.

Weapon Slot 2 (Wings): Master Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Dismay, Rune of Cold
Be the tireless foe that strikes a chilling fear into your enemies.

Armor Slot: Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Steel, Rune of Iron
The advancing tradition of dwarven metalcraft.

Talisman Slot 2: Master Rune of Spite, Rune of Lightning, Rune of Might
Repay each blow with a mighty bolt of lightning.

I hope to spend 1 AP next turn on the design work for this project, as well as ask the King of The Skies for ingredients sourced from himself to empower it, so we can score those 'good optics'.

I also hope to spend 1 AP on the design work of a multi-project for 2 banners that will form an Ancestral Banner Trifecta with the Ancestral Aegis:

Banner: Master Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Grungni, Rune of Battle
The sword to Ancestral Ageis's shield, empowering dwai to fight.

Banner: Master Rune of Valaya, Rune of Gazul, Rune of Sanctuary
Protecting the souls of the living and the dead, as Ancestral Ageis protects the body.

Given that the existing banner with Ancestral Ageis, the 'Silver Wyrm Banner' is dragon themed in honor of Kraka Drak, I think it'd be appropriate if one of these two were made with more traditional dwarven iconography, and the other made with a gryphon theme.

Given that Grimnir's rune has gryphon feathers for ingredients, I think it would be appropriate for that banner to have the Gryphon theme, while the banner that shields dwarven souls should be traditionally dwarven.

"Gryphons, Dragons, and the Ancestors" seems like the right theme to represent Kraka Drak to me.
 
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Red Bovine said:
If we get the option to do things with Yorri rather we spend the turn doing research with Yorri since that would likely be able to greatly speed up our research and finally clear things off that we have been putting of for dozens of turns.
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I don't think we will be able to research alongside him. That just doesn't seem like it would be something that Runelords do. I do think we could trade research we've already done with him. A Rune for a Rune. A master Rune for a master Rune.
 
June said:
How adaptive or adaptable are Gronti? Depending on the answer, if we made an eternal Gronti using the Greedy Heart, we'd still have other problems.
Our first Gronti was a miner. It had a pickaxe and it dug things, but I think I remember it killing things once, so there's definitely some amount of flexibility. After the Underway is completed, never again will we need a giant mining automaton. If we put the Greedy Heart in it, it'd be around far longer than its best use case, and we'd have it awkwardly doing things it wasn't made for until the sun goes out.
If we can make one thing that's going to be around forever, it should probably be useful forever. We don't know exactly what's coming, but I'm sure it has a lot of war. My vote's for a healing banner.
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The miner can dig, It can fight passably (it has flaming fists weighing tons) and is an Icon of Grugni.
It can fight, but it shouldn't.
It doesn't become useless when we have dug holds in every corner of the world and connected them all... not something feasible.
And if it's purpose was no longer achievable, it is still a religious icon of the ancestor gods.

With the Warrior, well... let's say that a gate guardian won't be useless. We're at the border of the chaos wastes. There will always be some degree of fighting going on. It also serves as a religious icon of Grimnir.

With Project Ymir, it is also a fighting Golem. We will not run out of fights any time soon, so the point of becoming useless is moot.

UlseDovThur said:
I don't think we will be able to research alongside him. That just doesn't seem like it would be something that Runelords do. I do think we could trade research we've already done with him. A Rune for a Rune. A master Rune for a master Rune.
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He still said he wanted us to learn something else from him... so... maybe? We're both odd ducks anyway. No one cares if we do something a bit unconventional. Plus, we are still master/apprentice, so we can trade knowledge quite freely.
 
I wonder if it's within the realm of possibilities for us to use the Heart to make a universal magic supply that could be transferred between runic items as needed, so in times of peace you could plug it into an Adamant Array, but when things get dangerous you could transfer it over to act as a gronti's power core.

It'd be stupidly difficult to even conceive of, (modularity probably not even being a thing to Morgrim,) but I wonder if it's something that's theoretically possible within the rules of the runic system (like, if you took the "conversion" combo, made it into a master rune, and paired it with the Rune of Sorcery, and some sort of transference rune).
 
June said:
How adaptive or adaptable are Gronti? Depending on the answer, if we made an eternal Gronti using the Greedy Heart, we'd still have other problems.
Our first Gronti was a miner. It had a pickaxe and it dug things, but I think I remember it killing things once, so there's definitely some amount of flexibility. After the Underway is completed, never again will we need a giant mining automaton. If we put the Greedy Heart in it, it'd be around far longer than its best use case, and we'd have it awkwardly doing things it wasn't made for until the sun goes out.
If we can make one thing that's going to be around forever, it should probably be useful forever. We don't know exactly what's coming, but I'm sure it has a lot of war. My vote's for a healing banner.
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I mean. We have a research option on the main rune that makes Gronti function.

As for what I want out of it. I want us to create our own Warhammer Fantasy version of the Continental Siege Engine briefly shown in Keeping to the Dream.
She is mobilized once more for the Core Campaign, as the Chancellor throws the finest of man's reserves into the meatgrinder of the border worlds and the Machines gleefully reply in kind. Her treads move on worlds like Beta Colony, scorched and broken from nuclear exchange. She snipes out superheavy walkers on Sachsen, ambushes laid in the ruins of industrial plants and workers' apartments. Her armor is scarred by counterfire from a light cruiser in orbit while supporting the Federation Marines on Vega, and she shrugs it off regardless.

More than five hundred years of war pass, and she is withdrawn from the endless struggle to act as part of the Sol System mobile reserve. Her last commander before she's mothballed on Old Earth names her Avalon, an island of peace made amidst the wars.

She is awakened by a panicked scientist in the ruins of Sierra Military Depot, and she rolls forth without a crew or staff in a world changed forever by the collapse of mankind. In a world that will not know peace for another ten thousand years.

You are the last of the Mark Fives, and you will shield mankind. So said the doctor more than a thousand years ago, and so it has been. The name Avalon on her side and the scratched, scorched striking eagle of the Federation's elite on her plates, she roams the deserts of what was once America. Before her part the armies of the warlords and barbarians, their war machines and elites dead in the face of the Federation's finest weapons. In her wake are the broken fortresses of psykic warlords, rad-soaked hellholes in which nothing lives.

She'd like to think that her legacy is a little more of peace in what Old Earth has become, and for as long as she is able so it shall be.

No cost too great, no march too far, no weight too much. Not as long as the eagle flies on her armor, and as long the dream lives on in her memories.
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A Gronti that can take everything the Elves can throw at it without flinching during the War of Vengeance. A Gronti that will stalk the Underway during the Time of Woes, eradicating any Greenskin or Skaven squatting in the tunnels and providing a ray of hope for any refugees braving the depths. A Gronti that will stand ready to repay every slight a thousandfold during the Age of Reckoning.
 
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issue with the heart is is basically seems like we need to finish a bunch of research before sinking it into something. Hell we haven't even fully seen what it or similar hearts do in regen or movement runes. We might legit benefit from getting a greedy troll's heart and making some test thing to see what lesser ones do.
 
Binge-Reader said:
issue with the heart is is basically seems like we need to finish a bunch of research before sinking it into something. Hell we haven't even fully seen what it or similar hearts do in regen or movement runes. We might legit benefit from getting a greedy troll's heart and making some test thing to see what lesser ones do.
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We've already researched the Heart itself and we know what it does. There are no other Hearts like it so we can't really test it in that manner. The only research we really need to do before we start on the Gronti is movement of things and finding a good combo which should only take a couple of turns. Assuming Movement of Things doesn't lead into yet further research we could knock the Gronti out in about 4 turns.

First turn doing half of MoT and combo searching and maybe one other thing. Second turn finishing MoT and more combo searching if we didn't find something the first time. Third turn we do part 1 of the Gronti. Fourth turn we build the thing.
 
mmm what's happened to Dragon's Spite?

Used obviously, but is its power expended, was it crushed, I dunno...
 
DarknessSmiles said:
pretty sure that it is gonezo
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Doomed Wombat said:
Pretty sure we could look for it if he just threw it away...

He's strong, but I don't think he could throw it over a mountain...
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Not exactly.
soulcake said:
A screaming shriek, and soon the King of the Skies falls from the heavens, Dragon's Spite in his claws, slamming it through Kholek's lower spine. Making the titan gurgle in pain. Hate and anger fill its gaze as it stares back at Otrek.
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Dudes. Sky King used it to impale Kholek with a dive at the end.

How did you forget one of the most epic moments of the update?

The bolt may be reduced in potency, what with the grudge satisfied, but it's still a runed adamant-tipped ballista projectile...
 
You know, at this point I will throw my wholehearted support behind any project using the greedy heart that gets approved past stage 1, Just so we can move on.
 
Nix's Warden said:
What about a Banner Of Ancestral Glories? Rune Of Valaya, Rune Of Grungni, Master Rune Of Grimnir?
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It's not so much that I'm against the idea so much that if we're not using our T5 stuff, I'd prefer to work on research over Creations of Note at the moment.
And the Rune of Valaya takes Trollblood, not a heart, if you're aiming to use it. An important distinction.
 
I wonder what a higher tier substitute for Oathgold would be. Griffon feathers and Trollblood are kinda easy, a higher tier gibby.
 
UlseDovThur said:
And we can't do that with a Healing Banner that doesn't use the Heart? I also disagree that the Hearts Endless energy and its regeneration are at all equal. Snorri learned of its regeneration just from a quick examination but it's the Endless energy that the research into it revealed.

The regeneration is a secondary aspect of the Heart, a byproduct, not the Primary one and using a T5 material in something that doesn't make full use of its main feature, the one that was revealed by the research we put into it, is, to me, a blatant waste.

The way I see it is that the Heart is a material tailor made for a Gronti. The Master Rune of animations normal ingredient is a Troll Heart. The Grontis main flaw is the power requirements. It just fits too well.

Something that's not a Gronti that I would consider using it on would be something like the Adamant Forge. It's main restriction is it's power requirements and is a nice fit for the Heart to me.
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We can provide healing and vitality to shrug off wounds with a lesser Banner, to lesser results. Slower, to less dwarves at once, and with a lower threshold of what it can save them from in terms of catastrophic injuries. We can make a lesser gronti, with less vitality and power and with a lower threshold of how long it will keep running.

To me, to adhere to your comment about using the properties of the Heart to its best potential we need to make use of all of its properties. A Gronti can benefit from the endless vitality through things like a Rune of Fortitude or perhaps Rune of Might or both. It'd keep going in the face of damage that would fell a lesser Gronti, essentially. This outright makes it better at doing Gronti-things better than other Gronti. And then it would also stay active forever, which is super important for it to do its job.

And as I said it can enhance a Banner by essentially directly giving Dwarves a portion of the Greedy One's vitality and ability to heal. This is a direct approach. The banner would never falter, its effects wouldn't weaken due to shifting Winds or the draining of magic. Being able to impart the idea of never faltering through that banner to the Dwarves of Kraka Drakk seems particularly fitting with This Far and No Further.

In terms of the Forge as a back up I honestly think that with how we found five shards of Voidstone at first that somewhere above five Smelters is the intended hard cap for production throughput. Five smelters, each effectively producing half a bar every turn, we'd get either 2 bars every turn or 3 depending on if Soulcake rounds down or rounds up. Put the Greedy Heart onto the Master Rune of Purification for one of the Smelters would probably up production by a bar at minimum I figure, since soul probably doesn't want to track "half" bars more than necessary. If it quarters the recharge time on a single Smelter, it'd produce two bars a turn. More if it does more than that, though I find that unlikely because of how 5-6 bars a turn does weird things to our production of Adamant items and thus doesn't seem to fit the concept of limited throughput.

UlseDovThur said:
First turn doing half of MoT and combo searching and maybe one other thing. Second turn finishing MoT and more combo searching if we didn't find something the first time. Third turn we do part 1 of the Gronti. Fourth turn we build the thing.
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In terms of this, what is your proposal for what to do with the Gronti in terms of materials and size? That's the stumbling block here is getting people to go with the design on turn 3, of whatever it is you propose.

And one advantage the Healing Banner has over the Gronti is that it isn't a generalist thing. It does one purpose and its design intent is there in how we describe it.
 
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BungieONI said:
And one advantage the Healing Banner has over the Gronti is that it isn't a generalist thing. It does one purpose and its design intent is there in how we describe it.
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Even better, it does one thing no matter the situation or the enemy. Facing daemons? You get healed. Fighting in a mudslide? You get healed. Fighting in a arrow underground passage? You get healed.
 
First hello to all, usually i don´t write too much, but i had a idea with the possible Gronti that doesn´t go off my head. But before that, Soulcake, we are not worthy, awesome work, i love this quest.

So i have to ask, it´s possible to make and put runic armor in a Gronti? Or it does interfere with the runes of the Gronti? Because i think a Pure gromril (to use less adamant) Gronti with the heart, in the form of longbeard Grimnir. And then, to go all in, individual pieces of runic armor and weapons of adamant, with runic cape and talisman, because if we want a op Gronti to protect our bois, we are going to make a good sustitute of our OP god.
 
BungieONI said:
We can provide healing and vitality to shrug off wounds with a lesser Banner, to lesser results. Slower, to less dwarves at once, and with a lower threshold of what it can save them from in terms of catastrophic injuries. We can make a lesser gronti, with less vitality and power and with a lower threshold of how long it will keep running.

To me, to adhere to your comment about using the properties of the Heart to its best potential we need to make use of all of its properties. A Gronti can benefit from the endless vitality through things like a Rune of Fortitude or perhaps Rune of Might or both. It'd keep going in the face of damage that would fell a lesser Gronti, essentially. This outright makes it better at doing Gronti-things better than other Gronti. And then it would also stay active forever, which is super important for it to do its job.

And as I said it can enhance a Banner by essentially directly giving Dwarves a portion of the Greedy One's vitality and ability to heal. This is a direct approach. The banner would never falter, its effects wouldn't weaken due to shifting Winds or the draining of magic. Being able to impart the idea of never faltering through that banner to the Dwarves of Kraka Drakk seems particularly fitting with This Far and No Further.

In terms of the Forge as a back up I honestly think that with how we found five shards of Voidstone at first that somewhere above five Smelters is the intended hard cap for production throughput. Five smelters, each effectively producing half a bar every turn, we'd get either 2 bars every turn or 3 depending on if Soulcake rounds down or rounds up. Put the Greedy Heart onto the Master Rune of Purification for one of the Smelters would probably up production by a bar at minimum I figure, since soul probably doesn't want to track "half" bars more than necessary. If it quarters the recharge time on a single Smelter, it'd produce two bars a turn. More if it does more than that, though I find that unlikely because of how 5-6 bars a turn does weird things to our production of Adamant items and thus doesn't seem to fit the concept of limited throughput.


In terms of this, what is your proposal for what to do with the Gronti in terms of materials and size? That's the stumbling block here is getting people to go with the design on turn 3, of whatever it is you propose.

And one advantage the Healing Banner has over the Gronti is that it isn't a generalist thing. It does one purpose and its design intent is there in how we describe it.
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If you want a banner that makes it so dwarfs never falter make one using the Master Rune of Grimnir. That's literally what it does.

Gromril. 10 meters. As both of you and others are showing you're losing your patience in regards to using the Heart so Adamant is out. Wuroth for the same reason as it would take a long time to make a Gronti from living Silver Wuroth.

An advantage the Gronti has over the Banner is that it is useful against almost any kind of enemy. The Banner is fine when facing swarms or peers as our dwarfs would be getting injured but not immediately dying. It's worthless against a Super combatant though. It doesn't matter how much you invigorate normal dwarves they simply won't be able to handle a super combatant. It might let them survive the experience I suppose.

A Gronti however is highly useful against swarms, peers, and supercombatants.
 
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