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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Alratan said:
And he has a runelord accompanying him for most of that time. Detailing a runesmith to follow him on counter spell duty to a more effective use of available assets.
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I feel like there's a lot of assumptions you're making but not articulating here. Like the idea that just because he's had a runelord stuck to him recently that'll continue to be the case going forward (do you imagine Yorri will be hanging out with the king from now on instead of heading off on his own, or that Snorri will be spending actions going on journeys with him, or smth?). Or that the hold's runesmiths constitute an "asset" Snorri could order to act as personal counterspell scarecrows for a griffon instead of plying their trade. Or that the king would even be interested in carrying a set of dwarfs around in the first place.
 
Alratan said:
And he has a runelord accompanying him for most of that time. Detailing a runesmith to follow him on counter spell duty to a more effective use of available assets.


That book is also, IIRC, nearly all the evidence for gronti being in much use at all though, so if you throw that out...

Also, something directly described in a canon source without contradiction elsewhere is very much not some pejoratively described 'headcanon' as you're trying to rhetorically smear it.
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And what you describe as canon isn't canon for this quest.

You're set on applying specific sets of values and a clear OTL historical path in a history full of possibilities written by someone else.

The metaphysics of this quest are not set in stone. Nothing is. An author, or writer of anything in the Warhammeresque fandom takes and picks what they want and what fits to them.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
And what you describe as canon isn't canon for this quest.

You're set on applying specific sets of values and a clear OTL historical path in a history full of possibilities written by someone else.

The metaphysics of this quest are not set in stone. Nothing is. An author, or writer of anything in the Warhammeresque fandom takes and picks what they want and what fits to them.
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The mere fact of the Greedy One's Heart existence with the description it has very strongly suggests that what happened to the Gronti as described in their canon appearance is very much a possibility. Look at it:

- Greedy One's Heart Trait Revealed, Pulling from the Deep: Energy eternal, drawing without end from the deepest places of the earth and the oldest magics. Whatever Rune is made from this baleful thing will not only be incredibly powerful, beyond even the scope of the original rune, but also never falter, never cease, and endure until the world's ending.​

And compare it to the description on the wiki of the gronti stopping working because the old magics had sunk so deep into the earth that no runelord could extract them. Both mention old magic and the depths of the earth, and the description very strongly implies that runes can falter and cease, which is something not observed or mentioned for any runic item whatsoever save for the gronti in any source I can find.

This most certainly is canon for the quest. If the gronti can't run out of power, what's the point of the Greedy Heart at all? This is particularly important for something like a gromril (or wutroth) gronti because they are so incredibly hard to destroy and hard to lose, in contrast to the vastly more fragile banners and much easier to lose personal equipment that's less likely to survive to run out of power, even if they can.

I know that you're just making this argument because you've now decided you want to make a banner with it, but come on.

In any case, we probably want to hold off using T5 ingredients until we do more research anyway.

bird yells said:
I feel like there's a lot of assumptions you're making but not articulating here. Like the idea that just because he's had a runelord stuck to him recently that'll continue to be the case going forward (do you imagine Yorri will be hanging out with the king from now on instead of heading off on his own, or that Snorri will be spending actions going on journeys with him, or smth?). Or that the hold's runesmiths constitute an "asset" Snorri could order to act as personal counterspell scarecrows for a griffon instead of plying their trade. Or that the king would even be interested in carrying a set of dwarfs around in the first place.
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Who said anything about a runelord continuing to be stuck to him? There are lots of runesmiths, it's one of the features of Kraka Drak. And if the King doesn't think he needs dispel support, he doesn't need to take them. If that's the case, he won't think he needs anti-magic armour either.
 
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Alratan said:
The mere fact of the Greedy One's Heart existence with the description it has very strongly suggests that what happened to the Gronti as described in their canon appearance is very much a possibility. Look at it:

- Greedy One's Heart Trait Revealed, Pulling from the Deep: Energy eternal, drawing without end from the deepest places of the earth and the oldest magics. Whatever Rune is made from this baleful thing will not only be incredibly powerful, beyond even the scope of the original rune, but also never falter, never cease, and endure until the world's ending.​

And compare it to the description on the wiki of the gronti stopping working because the old magics had sunk so deep into the earth that no runelord could extract them. Both mention old magic and the depths of the earth, and the description very strongly implies that runes can falter and cease, which is something not observed or mentioned for any runic item whatsoever save for the gronti in any source I can find.

This most certainly is canon for the quest. If the gronti can't run out of power, what's the point of the Greedy Heart at all?

I know that you're just making this argument because you've now decided you want to make a banner with it, but come on.
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Oh please. I've been one of the most ardent people for anything besides a golem since the concept came up. The difference is that I've been willing to go for it.

Right now, I'm showing a willingness to adapt and keep an open mind. The thread has shown no inclination to agree on execution, never mind how long it might take.

You, meanwhile, are making this argument because you refuse to be swayed once you're set on something, whether it be your idea or your own "headcanon", as you said in a derogative Tone to what I called the "evidence" of a few novels.

Even when you're proven wrong. Kholek was not 40 meters tall, we didn't absolutely need armor and the bestest possible armor on the KotS to survive, and we didn't need to stay near the Retaliator.

Wording is wording, the way the Heart is described is meant to emphasize it's capabilities.

Is it too much to ask to have an open mind?
 
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Horium said:
My preference would be 3-4 turns more.

It feels like barely any time passed since we sent out our last apprentices to journey and experience the world.

I am not being facetious. I really do like apprentices and I buy into the Snorri narrative of him building a large family of apprentices (Santa's helpers cough-cough).

If in the voting a plan that gets us apprentices wins, I'll not mind.

But I think it would be more meaningful, and more practical, if at least a couple more turns have passed.

It would feel less Snorri trying to alleviate the mother hen syndrome, and more a genuine desire to again spread his craft.
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While I wouldn't mind getting more apprentices the issue is that they take up a lot of our time which is a huge problem since we still have a ton of research to do. It takes apprentices several turns before they can take any actions and even then they can only do simple stuff. While they would 'only' take one action every action is significant to us thanks to our productivity trait that can turn more than a single action into multiple ones. Example being that with 5 actions we can take 3 actions to get 5 actions and 2 actions to get 3. That's pretty huge.

And before anyone brings up the 'they pay themselves off long term' argument it should be pointed out that it literally takes decades before they become journeyman and even longer for them to become apprentices. As in literally centuries or dozens of turns.

I'd really rather we at least clear up several research projects that have been sitting since the beginning of the quest. And while we didn't have any apprentices for a while should remind people that for most of that time we were preparing and then dealing with one of the worst incursions in Warhammer history.
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Seeing as we can't afford any more casualties in the reclamation of the clanhomes and holds that have been lost, and a super special Gronti is looking to take too long for us to agree to work on, I say we find a good combo for a healing banner we can stick the Greedy Heart into. It'll be perfect for the long campaign to reclaim the north.

I mean, the casualty numbers haven't changed but the ratio to which the north has suffered has. No point in taking it back if it means we suffer so much more we can't effectively be a part or have a say in the doings of the greater Karaz Ankor. I don't want the thread to get obsessed with making up for the losses such that we don't properly take advantage of the hopeful Golden Age knowledge to come-and as a Runelord we need to be directly part of that growth in knowledge to benefit from it because unlike economics we're not going to be getting new runes and stuff from ongoing trade.

Because we all know if the north is lagging or suffering in some way people are going to want to devote attention to pushing it up. And even without all that a Greedy Heart healing banner would last for all time as an incredibly useful resource.
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First off as mentioned any campaign is likely not goign to be a thing for a long while while people prepare. Second thanks to Grimnir clearing up the Underway and the daemons being banished there really isn't as much threats that would prevent the Dwarfs from reclaiming the Holds. Third there really isn't much contentions in regards to the super gronti since the only reason we haven't made it is due to people wanting to do the waking research which is only 8 actions first. The ideas being thrown around are just stuff we are talking in between the time to make the thing to see if we can come up with something unique before then but as is we can get it done in a turn or two.

As mention while a super healing banner is nice the issue is that super combatants can and will one shot large groups of people as shown with the Greedy One one shotting entire groups of soldiers. The Super gronti idea is to create our own super combatant that can not only kill off large armies of soldiers on it's own but hold off super combatants thus saving lives. We've seen in the fight with Kholek that super combatants are really important and even with us having four against one it was still a challenge and without them our casualties would have been far worse.

That said nothing is stopping us from making a super healing banner using T4 materials. And even if we don't have any for healing we can literally just order some with all the favors we have and just wait a 2-3 turns. Less if we used favors to speed things up. We literally have hundreds of favor, might as well use them for this.
 
Regardless of whether it's true or not, it's meta knowledge.

EVEN IF it's true, Snorri has no way to know, and shouldn't make his decisions based on that. IC, Snorri knows that the Gronti would be very powerful (due to the superior quality ingredient), and would never deactivate (due to the Heart's trait).

For the regeneration banner/armor, Snorri knows how effective it would be as a catalyst. Banner heals broken bones and lesser wounds in minutes, while the focused version gives wolverine level healing factor. If we want to add some more things weighing in on this side, we just took a lot of casualties. And we ended up with a fresh set of broken limbs.

Hypothetically, what if we made a replacement cloak, and put the banner on it. I'm hoping the Ruby cloak didn't take any more of a beating (given we were only knocked about, and not directly hit), but we've been floating about the idea of retiring the cloak since it's gotten slightly ripped.
If we manage to find a combo that works like Pyrestrike, i.e. focused on the user with a weaker effect that can be applied to the formations nearby (Valaya/Healing/Sanctuary?) we would get a mid-way route between the two options.
Though if we did that we'd find it hard to justify not going to war with the Throng...
@soulcake: Is something like this possible? I'm guessing we'd need to spend actions testing combos to get a straight answer though
 
Red Bovine said:
While I wouldn't mind getting more apprentices the issue is that they take up a lot of our time which is a huge problem since we still have a ton of research to do. It takes apprentices several turns before they can take any actions and even then they can only do simple stuff. While they would 'only' take one action every action is significant to us thanks to our productivity trait that can turn more than a single action into multiple ones. Example being that with 5 actions we can take 3 actions to get 5 actions and 2 actions to get 3. That's pretty huge.

And before anyone brings up the 'they pay themselves off long term' argument it should be pointed out that it literally takes decades before they become journeyman and even longer for them to become apprentices. As in literally centuries or dozens of turns.

I'd really rather we at least clear up several research projects that have been sitting since the beginning of the quest. And while we didn't have any apprentices for a while should remind people that for most of that time we were preparing and then dealing with one of the worst incursions in Warhammer history.

First off as mentioned any campaign is likely not goign to be a thing for a long while while people prepare. Second thanks to Grimnir clearing up the Underway and the daemons being banished there really isn't as much threats that would prevent the Dwarfs from reclaiming the Holds. Third there really isn't much contentions in regards to the super gronti since the only reason we haven't made it is due to people wanting to do the waking research which is only 8 actions first. The ideas being thrown around are just stuff we are talking in between the time to make the thing to see if we can come up with something unique before then but as is we can get it done in a turn or two.

As mention while a super healing banner is nice the issue is that super combatants can and will one shot large groups of people as shown with the Greedy One one shotting entire groups of soldiers. The Super gronti idea is to create our own super combatant that can not only kill off large armies of soldiers on it's own but hold off super combatants thus saving lives. We've seen in the fight with Kholek that super combatants are really important and even with us having four against one it was still a challenge and without them our casualties would have been far worse.

That said nothing is stopping us from making a super healing banner using T4 materials. And even if we don't have any for healing we can literally just order some with all the favors we have and just wait a 2-3 turns. Less if we used favors to speed things up. We literally have hundreds of favor, might as well use them for this.
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No agreement on size, no agreement on materials, no agreement on runes...there has been little argument recently to even research the Movement of Things. People aren't even making motions to make the Warrior, never mind that.

There is no going forward with this as things are.
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
No agreement on size, no agreement on materials, no agreement on runes...there has been little argument recently to even research the Movement of Things. People aren't even making motions to make the Warrior, never mind that.

There is no going forward with this as things are.
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In Red bovine's defence, there have been more interesting(adamant) / important(king and prince armor) / immediate (dowry/grudge/invasion) things happening recently. And there's the KoS' armor coming up.
But now we have Yorri around, so I expect some actions will go to him, given his wandering nature. We wouldn't want him to vanish, especially if the potential payoff is an upgrade for the Student of the Odd trait.
After that, I'm guessing the push will be the other research branches. Probably voidstone first, and then Movement of Things, if my read on the thread is good.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
No agreement on size, no agreement on materials, no agreement on runes...there has been little argument recently to even research the Movement of Things. People aren't even making motions to make the Warrior, never mind that.

There is no going forward with this as things are.
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Because we've been busy with more immediate stuff. We haven't had the time. Once we start doing the research and testing combos we'll be able to start narrowing down those disagreements. Any other disagreements that remain can be decided by vote.
 
IronFist said:
In Red bovine's defence, there have been more interesting(adamant) / important(king and prince armor) / immediate (dowry/grudge/invasion) things happening recently. And there's the KoS' armor coming up.
But now we have Yorri around, so I expect some actions will go to him, given his wandering nature. We wouldn't want him to vanish, especially if the potential payoff is an upgrade for the Student of the Odd trait.
After that, I'm guessing the push will be the other research branches. Probably voidstone first, and then Movement of Things, if my read on the thread is good.
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Yep, the issue for us not doing super projects was due to us being really, really busy thanks to the then coming chaos incursions and us preparing for it. We literally spent 2-3 turns on the dowry and Kings armor, which considering how they both ended up seriously helping was more than worth it. Then we had to spend a great deal of time on creating things specifically to kill Kholek. So yeah, been really busy for the last few turns.

In fact us being so busy is the main reason we have such a large list of research that we still haven't gotten to. Which again was not helped by the chaos incursions.
 
Alratan said:
Who said anything about a runelord continuing to be stuck to him? There are lots of runesmiths, it's one of the features of Kraka Drak. And if the King doesn't think he needs dispel support, he doesn't need to take them. If that's the case, he won't think he needs anti-magic armour either.
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Uh, you. That's what the post bird yells quoted reads as.

And if he thinks he doesn't need anti-magic armor or some other defense of that nature, I'm not inclined to agree with him on that notion given how icky the possibility of long term corruption is. Or getting injured to a Tzeentchian or a Nurglite.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Seeing as we can't afford any more casualties in the reclamation of the clanhomes and holds that have been lost, and a super special Gronti is looking to take too long for us to agree to work on, I say we find a good combo for a healing banner we can stick the Greedy Heart into. It'll be perfect for the long campaign to reclaim the north.
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BungieONI said:
If we can find powerful Troll Blood we could also boost the Master Rune of Valaya.
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
we could probably get T4 tier troll blood via an order (@soulcake ?) or ask the King of the Skies to hunt down the most powerful, unique troll he can find as the deal for his armor
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I'm very much in favour of this plan, although it might not hurt to finish the greedy heart research and see if there are any unexpected use-cases.
 
Alratan said:
Who said anything about a runelord continuing to be stuck to him? There are lots of runesmiths, it's one of the features of Kraka Drak. And if the King doesn't think he needs dispel support, he doesn't need to take them. If that's the case, he won't think he needs anti-magic armour either.
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You did, m8. I said he has a proclivity for going off on his own (note nonpast tense) and you said "he has a runelord accompanying him for most of that time" in response.

Runesmiths are not rts units, nor are they professional soldiers in a standing army; they have work of their own to deal with. The fact they turn out when the throng calls should not be taken to imply it's socially acceptable for the great and the good of the hold to order them around at their pleasure, imo. Snorri certainly could tell Otrek to order a few smiths to put their business and research on hold indefinitely so they can shake dispel sticks at the griffonking's problems instead, and accept the consequences of being seen to treat the junior smiths as his personal gophers... or he could make a portable spell defence for the griffonking instead, in the form of some cool armour with sick antimagic runes on it. That way the king can have his protection on hand when he's out killing trolls by the wagonload or whatever, without having to haul around a hot air balloon full of irritable magic linebackers wherever he goes.
 
@UlseDovThur in terms of your comment that we should make proper use of the Heart's properties, its regeneration and endless constant power as described when we finished researching it, I fully agree with the concept. The particulars however differ since in my mind the Gronti can use both, but after consideration I've concluded you can also make proper use of those properties by providing Dwarfs with endless vitality so that they do not tire in battle from their wounds and the regeneration to heal those wounds.

Or to put it another way I think that saying the Gronti is the only thing that best uses the Heart is perhaps imprecise, even if a Gronti still outright benefits in its direct operation from the Heart.
 
Can the adamant or its next stage, the crystal like metal, take the Rune of Ages ?
Alaric the Mad carved it on Warpstone because no other material was tough enough. Would the next stage of Gromril metal be strong enough for it ?
 
How adaptive or adaptable are Gronti? Depending on the answer, if we made an eternal Gronti using the Greedy Heart, we'd still have other problems.
Our first Gronti was a miner. It had a pickaxe and it dug things, but I think I remember it killing things once, so there's definitely some amount of flexibility. After the Underway is completed, never again will we need a giant mining automaton. If we put the Greedy Heart in it, it'd be around far longer than its best use case, and we'd have it awkwardly doing things it wasn't made for until the sun goes out.
If we can make one thing that's going to be around forever, it should probably be useful forever. We don't know exactly what's coming, but I'm sure it has a lot of war. My vote's for a healing banner.
 
June said:
How adaptive or adaptable are Gronti? Depending on the answer, if we made an eternal Gronti using the Greedy Heart, we'd still have other problems.
Our first Gronti was a miner. It had a pickaxe and it dug things, but I think I remember it killing things once, so there's definitely some amount of flexibility. After the Underway is completed, never again will we need a giant mining automaton. If we put the Greedy Heart in it, it'd be around far longer than its best use case, and we'd have it awkwardly doing things it wasn't made for until the sun goes out.
If we can make one thing that's going to be around forever, it should probably be useful forever. We don't know exactly what's coming, but I'm sure it has a lot of war. My vote's for a healing banner.
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The problem with this logic is that it also applies to making a Gronti that fights forever and ever to fight things, though. Not just not making a Gronti. A good, solid Monstrous Creature can wreak havoc.

Though my personal goal is to do Voidstone research so we can make or find more. Its a limited supply, and heavily so.

Comes after the Odd Places, however.
 
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