RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Weirdo]

Well, what do you think?

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I vaguely feel like it's too flowery, but it seems to hit the main points we want of good flying friends, they've helped us before, and they are trustworthy

We aren't doing it to convince, yes, but it would look good for us to back up our opinions with reasoning

 

[Red Bovine]

Putting off making the personal gear of our leaders until after a crisis hits feels like a mistake to me, no matter how strong the fortifications.

[ ] Plan Invasion Preperation
-[ ] [Simple] The Underway: 1 Action
-[ ] [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 2: 3 Actions
-[ ] [Difficult] Write In: Daemonbreak Adamant Hammer Pt. 1: 1 Action
--[ ] Choose: Master Rune of Breaking, Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Daemonslaying

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I just pointed out that the holds were literally designed to last decades of sieges and in canon lasted throughout the entire thing. There are also plans to not just finish the Dowry next turn but also finish up the Adamant armor, which we need all 3 Adamant bar for, for the King literally next turn. It's also been outright mentioned that the best option is pretty much to just bunker in anyway so it's highly likely that we have several decades before the other holds start to suffer serious damage.

Hence why people want to get another Smelter done right away since now is a sort of relative calm and getting the Smelter done means we would be getting 1 Adamant bar per turn letting us create more powerful works.

 

[Enthusiast#117]

Well, what do you think?

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I don't think the earth/sky philosophy of 1 and 3 would make a great impression.

I like "They have yet to harm a dwarf, and have in fact aided many. That alone is worth at least trying to make this work." though. It shows openmindedness while still coming from a dwarven attitude of reciprocity.

 

[Fanhunter696]

Which taking a turn to do voidstone research will answer at least in part. What we can see though is that high level metal such as adamant requires high level mats to produce so voidstone are going to have additional use beyond Helter Smelter, so we are running a definite risk of not having enough for what are likely to be better projects as stuff further down research trees tends to be better than stuff before it.

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True, but it as anyone who has played strategy games knows that it is a bad idea to wait until you have unlocked the full tech tree to build anything...

Especially if it is related to the production of resources, and that specific resource is essential...

I don't think we'd need 3 smelters for a long while. An Adamant Bar every turn would already help us with our plans for adamant armour for the king/heir and Snorri's personal gear. Making a single smelter this turn would mean we have enough adamant to make Otrek or Gloin their Adamant suit next turn.

And considering Gloin is leading the throng further North to try and stall the daemonshits Ofer a while he could probably do with his armour and cloak.

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On the other hand maximizing the producton of Adamant ASAP means that we would have much larger cuanties of an essential material, which means more armor and weapons produced...

 

[tri2]

finish dowry
make smelter
do a lot of research
upgrade ourselves
upgrade king/leaders/royal guards with adamant?
upgrade all soldiers with runic gromil armor and weapons and siege weapons

 

[Enthusiast#117]

...I just pointed out that the holds were literally designed to last decades of sieges and in canon lasted throughout the entire thing. There are also plans to not just finish the Dowry next turn but also finish up the Adamant armor, which we need all 3 Adamant bar for, for the King literally next turn. It's also been outright mentioned that the best option is pretty much to just bunker in anyway so it's highly likely that we have several decades before the other holds start to suffer serious damage.

Hence why people want to get another Smelter done right away since now is a sort of relative calm and getting the Smelter done means we would be getting 1 Adamant bar per turn letting us create more powerful works.

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I'm not super worried about the hold itself falling, for the reasons you just said. Our leaders lead from the front though, and I'm worried about their survival rates.

When Kraka Drak tells stories of these days, I don't want a lamentation for the King or Prince fallen in Defence of the Hold to feature.

In addition, the loss of someone we know can trigger a grudge that drives us to take the field again, and if that happens, Snorri should have better gear first.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. At most, we lose out on 2 Adamant Bars by waiting 2 turns to build infrastructure. At worst, we could lose a hero unit by putting off making their armor.

 

[Crazyone47]

I think doing research or smelters right now is a mistake; we have this turn and next turn to prepare for the demonic hordes, and we have yet to produce a single anti-daemon item, even though we've had the daemonward the entire game.

We can research and build infrastructure later.

This turn:
Get the Dowry out of the way with +2 Overflow for 3 AP.
Get the Underway finished for 1 AP.
Design something anti-daemon for 1 AP.

Next Turn:
Get both Armors done with +3 Overflow for 3 AP
Get the anti-daemon item finished with +2 Overflow for 2 AP

Hordes Arrive.

That seems like the best prep work possible, to me.

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Okay then but no one has suggested a good antidemon thing. What do we make? Armour, Healing Talisman? Banner? Weapon? Another giant Gate?
What Rune Combo to use on it? Which Master rune to use and what materials do we use for it? Adamant? Silver Wutroth? The Greedy One's Heart? The Dragonhide?
I would like to make an anti demon thing but I am a Warhammer amateur and don't have any good idea on what to make and what runes or materials to use.
Also if you can't figure out anything else the Adamant I feel is mostly to prepare for making the Griffon King's armor.

 

[hyperspacemage]

I mean if you want the most bang for your buck when it comes to demons banners seem the most useful either something to weaken the hordes or maybe one to heal and strengthen the dwarfs either way though finishing off the wood research and adding adamant to the banner I bet could make for an amazing banner based on fortitude and the healing anscestor god maybe but one that grounds or burns magic could also be pretty amazing

 

[Red Bovine]

I'm not super worried about the hold itself falling, for the reasons you just said. Our leaders lead from the front though, and I'm worried about their survival rates.

When Kraka Drak tells stories of these days, I don't want a lamentation for the King or Prince fallen in Defence of the Hold to feature.

In addition, the loss of someone we know can trigger a grudge that drives us to take the field again, and if that happens, Snorri should have better gear first.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. At most, we lose out on 2 Adamant Bars by waiting 2 turns to build infrastructure. At worst, we could lose a hero unit by putting off making their armor.

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Dude don't fear monger. I just freaking said that we are literally making him a suit of Adamant armor next turn along with finishing the Dowry. Considering that again, the Holds are literally meant to last decades don't see it as that big a problem of just getting him the Dowry and armor literally next turn.

 

[redj]

I think whatever we do we need to finish the underway this turn so troops can reinforce the north. Especially so if by the end of the decade the north will be facing a siege for the next turn/turns,

 

[Garlak]

Things I'd like to do:

*Contribute to the Underway (2 actions so we finish immediately and overflow)
*Maybe get started on that Oathgold Banner finally so we aren't hoarding the Oathgold reagent any longer? (1-2 actions)
*Maybe finish the Dowry right away, even if it gets done without over the top overflow (2 actions)

[ ] [Simple] The Underway: Otrek is in less of a rush to complete this. The Holds of the North are not waylaid by enemies and are aware that with the way the weather's been, an Underway route is the only reliable way for them to stay connected. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 21 out of 30 Progress. 7 progress a turn regardless of input.

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21/30 progress, 7 progress per turn.

If we put 2 actions into it, then it'll finish immediately. 2 actions become 3 actions; multiply by 2 and it becomes 6 progress. 21 +7 + 6 = 34. So It'll even overflow by 4 actions; which would probably mean that we'd have also filled it with defenses too, I think? So not only would the Underway be done, and immediately, it'd also be well-defended too. That would be very pleasing; I don't want to leave the Underway to finish next turn, I want it up before shit hits the fan not just as shit hits the fan.

[ ] [Simple] The Underway: 2 Actions
[ ] [Difficult] A Higher Standard Pt. 1: 1 Action
[ ] [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 2: 2 Actions

What do people think of a plan like this?

I'm most interested in getting the Underway out of the way right away. The Higher Standard is a "want" rather than a "need" because we've had that Oathgold for too long and I want to start getting it out of the way. The Dowry... either we do it this turn or wait until next turn, I dunno.

Splurging on a bunch of Adamant Smelters, though, so we immediately get 2 more built is tempting too though.

 

[Crazyone47]

Putting off making the personal gear of our leaders until after a crisis hits feels like a mistake to me, no matter how strong the fortifications.

[ ] Plan Invasion Preperation
-[ ] [Simple] The Underway: 1 Action
-[ ] [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 2: 3 Actions
-[ ] [Difficult] Write In: Daemonbreak Adamant Hammer Pt. 1: 1 Action
--[ ] Choose: Master Rune of Breaking, Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Daemonslaying

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Umm ..... We already have a pretty good hammer. Think we could make an axe as a test of adamant and daemon slaying combos?

 

[Red Bovine]

Things I'd like to do:

*Contribute to the Underway (2 actions so we finish immediately and overflow)
*Maybe get started on that Oathgold Banner finally so we aren't hoarding the Oathgold reagent any longer? (1-2 actions)
*Maybe finish the Dowry right away, even if it gets done without over the top overflow (2 actions)

21/30 progress, 7 progress per turn.

If we put 2 actions into it, then it'll finish immediately. 2 actions become 3 actions; multiply by 2 and it becomes 6 progress. 21 +7 + 6 = 34. So It'll even overflow by 4 actions; which would probably mean that we'd have also filled it with defenses too, I think? So not only would the Underway be done, and immediately, it'd also be well-defended too. That would be very pleasing; I don't want to leave the Underway to finish next turn, I want it up before shit hits the fan not just as shit hits the fan.

[ ] [Simple] The Underway: 2 Actions
[ ] [Difficult] A Higher Standard Pt. 1: 1 Action
[ ] [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 2: 2 Actions

What do people think of a plan like this?

I'm most interested in getting the Underway out of the way right away. The Higher Standard is a "want" rather than a "need" because we've had that Oathgold for too long and I want to start getting it out of the way. The Dowry... either we do it this turn or wait until next turn, I dunno.

Splurging on a bunch of Adamant Smelters, though, so we immediately get 2 more built is tempting too though.

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The QM outright stated that we don't really need to put that much effort into the tunnels since the people on the other side are working especially hard. Not to mention that logically it would make sense that with the Dwarfs holding up would be working on the Tunnel defenses and again, the Holds are going to hold for literally decades.

 

[Kaboomatic]

Well, what do you think?

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bit too prosaic for my tastes
it seems like a speech that a politician would give, not something we'd come up with on the spot
i'd also prefer if you took out the metaphors, they're kinda forced and don't add anything

 

[kobo]

I'm not interested in spending anything more than 1 action on the underway which will make it autocomplete on this turn, 2 actions is not necessary for it to finish this turn. I don't buy the argument that we need to wait on using the voidstones I'd prefer to get another smelter up immediately since I think it is basically immediately applicable. So my preferred turn is 1 on the underway 2 on the smelter and 2 on the dowry.

 

[Walliseatscheese]

[] Plan: It's My Adamant And I Need It Now
-[ ] Helter Smelter: You're sure there's a way to more efficiently produce more Adamant, but as it is you can create at least one more smelter to increase your overall throughput. Having one work while the other recharges for instance. You can at least make one or two more before you start feeling as if you're running afoul of the Rule of Pride. [Cost: 3 actions, 1 Voidstone] Productivity Like No Other will proc. +1 Bar of Adamant every Turn instead of every other Turn. (Will count the turn it was done on) Overflow will only add progress to the next smelter and cost another Voidstone. 2 Actions
--[ ] Use the Greedy Heart
-[ ] [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 2: Two cloaks and an amulet to be ready for the wedding of Prince Durabarr Stonehammer and Princess Orra Ironarm. All that needs to be done nowA multiwork project. [Cost: 3 actions] Due in 2 Turns. 1 Action
-[ ] Voidstones: You have four shards of the material left. You aren't sure what it is, or if there's even more of it out there in the world, getting gobbled up by other Runelords inconspicuously. You'll have to do a bit of investigation as well as your more normal battery of tests. [Cost: 5 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
-[ ] [Simple] The Underway: Otrek is in less of a rush to complete this. The Holds of the North are not waylaid by enemies and are aware that with the way the weather's been, an Underway route is the only reliable way for them to stay connected. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 21 out of 30 Progress. 7 progress a turn regardless of input. 1 action

So this is @EVA-Saiyajin 's plan with the sole exception that we use the Greedy Heart to massively increase Adamant production to better let us spread its benefits sooner.

It is my personal opinion that however much additional Adamant this will give us will be worth it.

 

[Enthusiast#117]

Okay then but no one has suggested a good antidemon thing. What do we make? Armour, Healing Talisman? Banner? Weapon? Another giant Gate?

Click to shrink...

Pick one:

3	Daemon Breaker - Weapon: Master Rune of Breaking, Rune of Spellbreaking, Rune of Daemonslaying
4	Daemon Shield - Armor: Master Rune of Gromril, Spelleater Rune, Rune of Sanctuary
7	Daemon Guard - Armor: Master Rune of Gromril, Spelleater Rune, Rune of Valaya
8	Daemon Fear - Talisman: Master Rune of Dismay, Rune of Valaya, Rune of Spellbreaking
10	Daemon Trap - Talisman: Master Rune of Spite, Rune of Daemonslaying, Spelleater Rune

Dude don't fear monger. I just freaking said that we are literally making him a suit of Adamant armor next turn along with finishing the Dowry. Considering that again, the Holds are literally meant to last decades don't see it as that big a problem of just getting him the Dowry and armor literally next turn.

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Yes, I did miss that part of your post, where you mentioned making the armor and dowry next turn.

So is it the armor or the dowry that gets 3 AP next turn, while the other gets 2?
Or do they both get 2 AP next turn?
We've been planning to invest in these for a while. We abandoning those plans for 2 Bars of Adamant?

 

[BungieONI]

*Contribute to the Underway (2 actions so we finish immediately and overflow)

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We'd finish immediately with one action, given we make 2 progress per action. Not saying overflowing on it is bad, it by definition isn't, but if we put any effort at all in it will finish by decade end.

But you raise a good point about overflow on it. I would instead suggest a measure like this:

3 actions on Dowry so we get five and each item gets 1.5 effective actions into each item is like I think more fitting? These are what we are going to be able to give our King and Prince for protection for now until we can come up with the time and resources to make the Adamant armor. I'd like to do four but you raise a good point about defenses, though I'm concerned even 34 isn't enough to do all of them.

But a 2 and 3 split is something I'd vote for.

My personal plan is 1 into Underway, 4 into Dowry for "Overflow for more defense++" as I said above.

Write in wise @EVA-Saiyajin I like your middle point, though the other two I don't have much interest in.


[] Plan Underway and Sew Those Cloaks
-[] [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 2: Two cloaks and an amulet to be ready for the wedding of Prince Durabarr Stonehammer and Princess Orra Ironarm. All that needs to be done nowA multiwork project. [Cost: 3 actions] Due in 2 Turns. 4 Actions
-[] [Simple] The Underway: Otrek is in less of a rush to complete this. The Holds of the North are not waylaid by enemies and are aware that with the way the weather's been, an Underway route is the only reliable way for them to stay connected. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 21 out of 30 Progress. 7 progress a turn regardless of input. 1 action

@Garlak I think the other holds if they have an underway connection for supplies and security can deal with most of the defenses on their end, and Otrek can handle our end.


In terms of the Update!

"I have too much pride to bring my death upon me in such a way. My death will come on my own terms, glorious and for the sake of my flock," the creature replies calmly.

"Alright," the prince says, hefting the beating heart in hand while offering the other, "let's shake on it."

The King of the Skies offers his clean claw and daintily shakes the Adamant clad fist of Snorri Whitebeard.

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Rather like a dwarf that thought.

 

[Chimeraguard]

Thoughts for how Snorri might talk about the Gryphons:
-While we've known them only for a short time, they haven't shown themselves to be untrustworthy.
-When Brokk and Snorri first encountered one, said Gryphon specifically only attacked the trolls, and not them, so even when neither side had any real clue what the other was like, there wasn't any outright hostility.
-A gryphon saved Dolgi's life. That's a really big thing for me, and goes a long way for my approval. And apparently Dolgi's even been talking to that specific gryphon.
-The argument could be made that all of those acts were enlightened self-interest (hunting trolls to empower themselves, not hunting Dwarfs because they don't gain anything and have to get into another fight and risk dying), but even with that, Dwarfs who would have died are still alive because of their actions.

 

[Garlak]

I don't think the earth/sky philosophy of 1 and 3 would make a great impression.

I like "They have yet to harm a dwarf, and have in fact aided many. That alone is worth at least trying to make this work." though. It shows openmindedness while still coming from a dwarven attitude of reciprocity.

Click to shrink...

What do you think of adding something like: "They fly; we can't. So they can go where we can't, and are very fast." Drawing attention not just to the fact that they've been helpful and haven't been harmful, but also the way in which they can be helpful; namely, that they can do things, provide us a service, that Dwarfs can't.

I don't know about riders or chariots. (I really like Warcraft too, but I fear Gryphon Riders are not going to happen. I could see Rangers being willing to do so, maybe. But not Dwarfs in general.) But you know what Griffons can do? They can be very fast messengers. A letter or parcel carried by a Griffon postmaster would cut communication times between Norscan holds a lot. Heck, carrying battlefield messages very quickly -- and as-the-crow-flies, thus ignoring terrain -- would also be very useful!

It's... it's just great.

It'd mean moving to do more than just trading with each other and hunting Trolls. But if we can interest Griffons in paying them to be couriers... that would be so very useful.

Hmm... Thinking about it, I'm wondering whether we can/ought to make more than reliability and 'how useful are they?' arguments. i.e. Arguing altruism or charity or something. Or just that... It's dangerous in the north, and there are Daemons. Any non-evil people should be allied against Chaos. Losing friendly or neutral people or civilizations/races to Chaos, no matter who they are, is a loss.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

[] Plan: It's My Adamant And I Need It Now
-[ ] Helter Smelter: You're sure there's a way to more efficiently produce more Adamant, but as it is you can create at least one more smelter to increase your overall throughput. Having one work while the other recharges for instance. You can at least make one or two more before you start feeling as if you're running afoul of the Rule of Pride. [Cost: 3 actions, 1 Voidstone] Productivity Like No Other will proc. +1 Bar of Adamant every Turn instead of every other Turn. (Will count the turn it was done on) Overflow will only add progress to the next smelter and cost another Voidstone. 2 Actions
--[ ] Use the Greedy Heart
-[ ] [Difficult] Dowry Pt. 2: Two cloaks and an amulet to be ready for the wedding of Prince Durabarr Stonehammer and Princess Orra Ironarm. All that needs to be done nowA multiwork project. [Cost: 3 actions] Due in 2 Turns. 1 Action
-[ ] Voidstones: You have four shards of the material left. You aren't sure what it is, or if there's even more of it out there in the world, getting gobbled up by other Runelords inconspicuously. You'll have to do a bit of investigation as well as your more normal battery of tests. [Cost: 5 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. 1 action
-[ ] [Simple] The Underway: Otrek is in less of a rush to complete this. The Holds of the North are not waylaid by enemies and are aware that with the way the weather's been, an Underway route is the only reliable way for them to stay connected. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 21 out of 30 Progress. 7 progress a turn regardless of input. 1 action

So this is @EVA-Saiyajin 's plan with the sole exception that we use the Greedy Heart to massively increase Adamant production to better let us spread its benefits sooner.

It is my personal opinion that however much additional Adamant this will give us will be worth it.

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Interesting idea. Given that it's explicitly a source of energy, and this thing is an energy guzzler, one could argue it's very fitting.

And there is something to be said about using the Heart to CREATE for all time rather than destroy. Plus, the first of our great successes with the first and greatest of our research trees combined. A worthwhile combination.


@BungieONI
Not really fond of overflow on the dowry, especially 4 actions. Diminishing returns and all that, plus we have other things to do. Besides, ya probably realize that I really want Adamant. Sorry...

@Chimeraguard
Thank you for contributing more to the Whitebeard Response. I encourage others to do the same.

 

[Chimeraguard]

Well, keep in mind, we're not trying to convince Whitebeard of this. This is to show what kind of Dwarf we are, what Snorri Klausson thinks about this whole thing, and as such, a look into his mindset in general.

Do we want him to be a full-scale pragmatist, focused on "They're useful, and having them with us will help my Hold and our People"?
Do we want one of his main points to be "They saved the life of one of my Apprentices."?

Or some other series of points/ideas that get across a certain mindset that Snorri's taking with all of this.

 

[BungieONI]

Thoughts for how Snorri might talk about the Gryphons:
-While we've known them only for a short time, they haven't shown themselves to be untrustworthy.
-When Brokk and Snorri first encountered one, said Gryphon specifically only attacked the trolls, and not them, so even when neither side had any real clue what the other was like, there wasn't any outright hostility.
-A gryphon saved Dolgi's life. That's a really big thing for me, and goes a long way for my approval. And apparently Dolgi's even been talking to that specific gryphon.
-The argument could be made that all of those acts were enlightened self-interest (hunting trolls to empower themselves, not hunting Dwarfs because they don't gain anything and have to get into another fight and risk dying), but even with that, Dwarfs who would have died are still alive because of their actions.

Click to shrink...

Personally I agree with this pretty much. My thoughts on the write in are:


[] Write in:
-[] They have not killed or harmed any dwarves, and they saved the life of my apprentice. (Shows Snorri is a dwarf who cares about dwarf lives in particular)
-[] They need more time and testing, but what has been revealed so far shows they have enough reliability to not bungle using my craft. (Shows he cares about his craft) (Not really happy with this one)
-[] They hunt trolls and other dark things, which is a mark of good sense. (Shows he puts special attention on what has been done so far)

Simple and straightforward. I am not really seeing or feeling much impetus for commenting on their military abilities in comparison to dwarfs, it's pretty obvious if you give it thought and I also don't really want to have Snorri focused on that since in my mind he cares a lot about those closest to him and other dwarfs and his craft being used well.

 

[Garlak]

3 actions on Dowry so we get five and each item gets 1.5 effective actions into each item is like I think more fitting?

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Oh right, I forgot about the +2 bonus to 3 actions on Requests thing. That'd be neat.

Uh, what about something like:

Underway: 1 action
Dowry: 3 actions
Oathgold Banner: 1 action

Because I'm grumpily unhappy about having the Oathgold sit around for so long.

Especially as we now have a second reagent that we won't be using any time soon. None of our runes even use Obsidian. So basically, ordering it was a mistake, because the guess that it was the key to the Master Rune of Purification was just a guess and turned out to be wrong. ... A mistake that we even used Favor on, at that. Argh.

@soulcake is there anything we can even use Obsidian on? None of the Runes on our list use it, so... Since we ordered it by accident, assuming that our research needed it, can we use it up when we take the Voidstone Research actions? (I know you said that Research won't require mats. So this'd be a onetime thing and only happening because we kind of made a mistake on orders.)

 

[BungieONI]

@BungieONI
Not really fond of overflow on the dowry, especially 4 actions. Diminishing returns and all that, plus we have other things to do. Besides, ya probably realize that I really want Adamant. Sorry...

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That's fine. In my mind it's going to be post turn 18 that we're going to be able to make the Armors at all, and I want Otrek and Gloin to be as well protected as possible until we can make the Armors and 1.5 actions on each item of the Dowry doesn't sound like enough to hit diminishing returns. Largely because if we were making a cloak by itself, overflowing it by one action wouldn't reasonably be expected to hit diminishing returns.

Underway: 1 action
Dowry: 3 actions
Oathgold Banner: 1 action

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That works too.