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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Perfect. No reason not to keep the option open, beside character bloat, but this quest passed that point a long, long time ago.
We don't need to vote yes to keep the option open - it just exists in our General Action list as Apprentice Hunt. We can take it whenever and this vote wasn't about Snorri swearing off apprentices forever.
 
We don't need to vote yes to keep the option open - it just exists in our General Action list as Apprentice Hunt. We can take it whenever and this vote wasn't about Snorri swearing off apprentices forever.
I am somewhat curious about why this vote is being held if that is the case.
I didn't think soulcake would hold this unprompted and then if we say no we can just change our mind next turn anyway would be narratively jarring and probably bad for thread health that the pro apprentice can just relitigate this again. I thought this was going to be some kind of action pruning at least for an intermediate period before being revisited. Or is the point that this is essentially a free action and we don't need to spend an action on apprentice hunt?
 
I am somewhat curious about why this vote is being held if that is the case.
I didn't think soulcake would hold this unprompted and then if we say no we can just change our mind next turn anyway would be narratively jarring and probably bad for thread health that the pro apprentice can just relitigate this again. I thought this was going to be some kind of action pruning at least for an intermediate period before being revisited. Or is the point that this is essentially a free action and we don't need to spend an action on apprentice hunt?
Because this crop of apprentices is unusually good, and theres no guarantee they'll be there if you do an apprentice hunt next turn or something.

For you anyway. Its more relevant to Karstahs development as a character.

Its like Snerra not being an apprentice hunt discovery. Just rolls.
 
I am somewhat curious about why this vote is being held if that is the case.
I didn't think soulcake would hold this unprompted and then if we say no we can just change our mind next turn anyway would be narratively jarring and probably bad for thread health that the pro apprentice can just relitigate this again. I thought this was going to be some kind of action pruning at least for an intermediate period before being revisited. Or is the point that this is essentially a free action and we don't need to spend an action on apprentice hunt?
Its essentially a free action caused by some good RNG.
 
I mean. By sheer amount of turns we're starting to hit the life expectancy of the average dwarf born on turn 1.

Gloin for example was already an adult on turn 14.

And while Runelords are pretty stubborn, not everyone else is like that. Even among runesmiths.
 
That's a disturbing recommendation…

Well I did said It was sad.
I am pretty sure no apprentice Is going to die before Snorri, but that still leaves many runelord/retainer etc.
As I said, sad reality but I think It Is kinda inevitabile, dawi are not immortal and we had 3 death of old Age in 590 years.
And Angara Is Just very close to.
Plus you know It makes sense narrativly, Snorri Is immortal and belongs to a subgroup of longer living people, others Justs live a lot.
If the quest goes on long enough snorri Will basicaly be forced to make new connection with complety new people.
 
I think that, if we make it to the next millennial milestone, we'll have reached the point where even our apprentices succumb to time. We're the only one that soulcake has guaranteed won't die of old age.
 
Obviously we need to devise a mechanism where we can bestow immortality on our apprentices too. I have a plan.

Stone is unchanging and durable and Dawi are meant to begin from stone. Maybe there is some magical way of changing a Dawi to become like stone, yet still living, now that we have access to all this knowledge of the winds. Then, as Khazagar expands into a proper industrial center, we can place our stone-magic Dawi apprentices in positions of leadership. Once we really ramp things up in terms of productivity, we might as well swap out the runesmith underlings for servants of greater physical strength, like Orcs. Then, we force them into subservience through slavery and make them churn out material en masse under belching smoke stacks and icons of our true god, the bull.

GLORY TO ZHARR-NAGGRUND! HAIL HASHUT!
 
[X] [Snorri:] No.
[X] [Karstah:] Yes. Apprentice Vote in next Turn Results. (Taking apprentices will lock minimum 1 action per turn for 12 turns)
 
Obviously we need to devise a mechanism where we can bestow immortality on our apprentices too. I have a plan.

Stone is unchanging and durable and Dawi are meant to begin from stone. Maybe there is some magical way of changing a Dawi to become like stone, yet still living, now that we have access to all this knowledge of the winds. Then, as Khazagar expands into a proper industrial center, we can place our stone-magic Dawi apprentices in positions of leadership. Once we really ramp things up in terms of productivity, we might as well swap out the runesmith underlings for servants of greater physical strength, like Orcs. Then, we force them into subservience through slavery and make them churn out material en masse under belching smoke stacks and icons of our true god, the bull.

GLORY TO ZHARR-NAGGRUND! HAIL HASHUT!

Needs 9% less heresy. :V
 
[X] [Snorri:] Yes. Apprentice Vote in next Turn Results. (Taking apprentices will lock minimum 1 action per turn for 10 turns)
[X] [Karstah:] Yes. Apprentice Vote in next Turn Results. (Taking apprentices will lock minimum 1 action per turn for 12 turns)
 
[X] [Snorri:] Yes. Apprentice Vote in next Turn Results. (Taking apprentices will lock minimum 1 action per turn for 10 turns)
[X] [Karstah:] Yes. Apprentice Vote in next Turn Results. (Taking apprentices will lock minimum 1 action per turn for 12 turns)

Don't think Snorri should ever stop taking apprentices, tbh, I feel like by this point, after something like half a Millenium with apprentices, he'd feel weirder NOT taking one.
 
[X] [Snorri:] Yes. Apprentice Vote in next Turn Results. (Taking apprentices will lock minimum 1 action per turn for 10 turns)
[X] [Karstah:] Yes. Apprentice Vote in next Turn Results. (Taking apprentices will lock minimum 1 action per turn for 12 turns)

Don't think Snorri should ever stop taking apprentices, tbh, I feel like by this point, after something like half a Millenium with apprentices, he'd feel weirder NOT taking one.
@soulcake For clarity please, this seems to imply that voting No here means Snorri will never take on Apprentices ever again. Is that true?
@soulcake to clarify this apprentice vote, if we vote no now, are we never going to be able to take an apprentice again? Because the timing on this is really rough.

Not forever if you pick no.

Just a good crop this year, and depending on who you pick you may not even start training em for a bit. Svina is literally 13 turning 22 by end of this turn so you wouldn't even start training her til she was 30 if you wanted Snorri or Karstah to do it. Which is in 2-ish turns.

Picking no does not mean Snorri will stop taking apprentices according to Soul here. It just means he doesn't call dibs on any of the unusually good crop this year.

I actually have a plan for Snorri to pick up an apprentice manually with the Apprentice Hunt option in the General action list once Snorri has figured out how to share windsight without maiming.



To everybody, getting Snorri an apprentice right now (even Svina) would make going to war on turn 61 and 62 harder - whether that's defeating the Fimir in bulk with Skaudardrengi instead of using Malekith's Ritual, or cleansing the rest of the peninsula of the dark forces left after the explosion and scouting out the waystone sites that need repair. Makes research and building things harder as well.

Legitimately it makes everything y'all want to do inside the next three months IRL harder.

If you want apprentice fluff and maximum flexibility, do Snorri No and Karstah Yes, and have Karstah choose Svina (Us players are in control of who she picks, it'll be fluffed as her decision). Karstah gets a lot of screen time, so would her apprentice since the little girl will be attached like a limpet, and we'll get to see them pranking Snorri together - like they did with the hammers and the chisel in storage this past update, and other more direct funny stuff I imagine.
 
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Picking no does not mean Snorri will stop taking apprentices according to Soul here. It just means he doesn't call dibs on any of the unusually good crop this year.

I actually have a plan for Snorri to pick up an apprentice manually with the Apprentice Hunt option in the General action list once Snorri has figured out how to share windsight without maiming.



To everybody, getting Snorri an apprentice right now (even Svina) would make going to war on turn 61 and 62 harder - whether that's defeating the Fimir in bulk with Skaudardrengi instead of using Malekith's Ritual, or cleansing the rest of the peninsula of the dark forces left after the explosion and scouting out the waystone sites that need repair. Makes research and building things harder as well.

Legitimately it makes everything y'all want to do inside the next three months IRL harder.

If you want apprentice fluff and maximum flexibility, do Snorri No and Karstah Yes, and have Karstah choose Svina (Us players are in control of who she picks, it'll be fluffed as her decision). Karstah gets a lot of screen time, so would her apprentice since the little girl will be attached like a limpet, and we'll get to see them pranking Snorri together - like they did with the hammers and the chisel in storage this past update, and other more direct funny stuff I imagine.

I think people understand that AP is limited, it's just that many are fine with sacrificing some of that stuff to get an apprentice. For instance we have a tendency to overpay for crafting in AP, we have done that has far back as Trollslayer unless I miss my guess and now with KKR to improve our productivity even more not to mention the advancement of the trait that would be even more the case. At the end of the day I do not think AP cost is that ruinous to deal with.
 
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I think people understand that AP is limited, it's just that many are fine with sacrificing some of that stuff to get an apprentice. For instance we have a tendency to overpay for crafting in AP, we have done that has far back as Trollslayer unless I miss my guest and now with KKR to improve our productivity even more not to mention the advancement of the trait that would be even more the case. At the end of the day I do not think AP cost is that ruinous to deal with.
AP cost is a thing, but I also mean straight up screen time.

As for the other statement. I do think we've overpayed on some stuff, but there's another tendency in parallel to that. Do you recognize that the quality and scale of a craft both determine how much overflow it can take in an intuitive manner based on what Soul has said? And that the quality of our potential crafts has been increasing?

Additionally, another tendency is that we're generally not going above three with the stuff we make, after getting KKR. Discussions around the Ungor Gronti haven't risen above 2 ap in the pt 2 where we actually build it IIRC.

The only exception to that, the Dragon, is because when it was first conceived of years prior to KKR it was treated as so huge and significant that many people (myself included) think we should full dive it. And now after Khaz, there's a further impetus because the other time we've full dived something we popped out a T5 Wonder with Khazagar.

So no, its not even more the case that we'll overpay. KKR has given greater flexibility, letting us grab low hanging fruit that's been out to dry for so long - see this very turn. And in my case, I don't really want to give that up actually. I like satisfying our other projects that have lain dormant for some time.

A third tendency in this thread is people speaking up about their particular project not getting attention: Happening of Things, Light, Albion Gear, Mind of Things, Fixing of Things etc. Voik's Giant Siege Gronti, Azrilzhufgotten (which started life as a design from Belligerent Gnu at least a year ago), Menlinwen's stuff, the Brotherhood Calls request about the last Storm of Magic, War.

The combination of Heir Actions, KKR, and the innovation of Simple Research and a pool of autoprogress into Simple Research every turn has given us far more flexibility - enough to make actual progress on stuff we've been leaving fallow. So I wrap around back to my initial point. Snorri taking an apprentice reduces our flexibility and does make it meaningfully harder to do stuff or give people's projects of interest attention. Everyone's projects of interest.

And if someone wants Svina as an apprentice and doesn't care about plan particulars, then there's Karstah, who is basically a second protagonist at this point so screen time is a much smaller concern. (Karstah and Snorri are not interchangeable) If folks want specifically Snorri teaching Svina or another apprentice scenes I accept that, even though I don't think that's a good idea right now for a multitude of reasons. Most of which I've already laid out.

And for the folks who both want an apprentice and want maximum flexibility to do their projects and do care about plan particulars those incentives point towards Snorri No and Karstah Yes.
 
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