RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Dark as Silver]

It was my understanding that it would mostly have been essentially paperwork from the ships coming into port which is mildly sad for the economics enjoyer in me but probably not a great artistic loss.

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Okay so I'm somewhat torn between stressing that it was a hypothetical question. That it doesn't actually matter what was specifically lost in the Library itself and that I am using it as a metaphor for the way that so much ancient literature has been lost over time to all sorts of causes.

And getting into niggling at specifics... Which I kinda wanna do, but I think discussing how the library functioned between two and what could have been lost between two non historians (forgive for presuming, if you actually are a historian) really isn't all that useful to the thread. PM me I guess if you wanna talk about that. Or if theres a more general thread?

 

[DragonParadox]

I think that the best way we have to guarantee communication may be right under Snori's nose, the Waystones themselves. They are all already connected, they are secure from remote tampering and you have to guard them anyway so they might as well pull double duty. We would have to figure out how to drop predetermined packets of magic into the ley line and read them on the other end.

 

[tri2]

I think that the best way we have to guarantee communication may be right under Snori's nose, the Waystones themselves. They are all already connected, they are secure from remote tampering and you have to guard them anyway so they might as well pull double duty. We would have to figure out how to drop predetermined packets of magic into the ley line and read them on the other end.

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build my telepathic dwarf/astropath dwarf thrones on them, thrones will be the terminal/antenna to connect with the leylines while the dwarves will be the dedicated input/output converters

 

[Copperscale]

build my telepathic dwarf/astropath dwarf thrones on them, thrones will be the terminal/antenna to connect with the leylines while the dwarves will be the dedicated input/output converters

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We have runes of speech and a tech tree to do mind stuff.
No need to put a dwarf there.
We have a speech to text device.
It just needs to be enhanced: speech to magic, transmit, and then magic to text.

 

[Dark as Silver]

I think that the best way we have to guarantee communication may be right under Snori's nose, the Waystones themselves. They are all already connected, they are secure from remote tampering and you have to guard them anyway so they might as well pull double duty. We would have to figure out how to drop predetermined packets of magic into the ley line and read them on the other end.

Click to shrink...

They're single directional, we don't know the speed of transportation, and the Waystones might need to be guarded, but they're a secret and using them as a messaging network would mean that everyone who is allowed to send messages through them must be brought into the secret. We currently don't have a way to make them on our own therefore only Karaks who were founded close enough to one get to use this network. Finally the leylines themselves aren't secure from tampering, messages would be visible downstream to everyone who is able to read them flowing past, and plenty of spellcasters draw from them for magic power as well which could accidentally obliterate the message even if its not intentional.

We're also faced with the issue that our packet size is probably a very small percentage of the total flow, which itself will have daily fluctuations according to the winds, so the packet size probably needs to be pretty large.
I can see usecases, however even if everything else is solved the directionality means they're more of a method for Snorri Whitebeard to receive messages from the north and send messages to the south than for a way for him to communicate with his entire realm.

 

[DragonParadox]

They're single directional, we don't know the speed of transportation, and the Waystones might need to be guarded, but they're a secret and using them as a messaging network would mean that everyone who is allowed to send messages through them must be brought into the secret. We currently don't have a way to make them on our own therefore only Karaks who were founded close enough to one get to use this network. Finally the leylines themselves aren't secure from tampering, messages would be visible downstream to everyone who is able to read them flowing past, and plenty of spellcasters draw from them for magic power as well which could accidentally obliterate the message even if its not intentional.

We're also faced with the issue that our packet size is probably a very small percentage of the total flow, which itself will have daily fluctuations according to the winds, so the packet size probably needs to be pretty large.
I can see usecases, however even if everything else is solved the directionality means they're more of a method for Snorri Whitebeard to receive messages from the north and send messages to the south than for a way for him to communicate with his entire realm.

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We do not know if they are single directional, in fact I would say there is a good chance they are not. The Vortex is where the magic has to go ultimately, but the system is built on the Old Ones transportation network and that must have had some capacity to send packets in both directions from any one note.

 

[Dark as Silver]

We do not know if they are single directional, in fact I would say there is a good chance they are not. The Vortex is where the magic has to go ultimately, but the system is built on the Old Ones transportation network and that must have had some capacity to send packets in both directions from any one note.

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Dunno if agree that the chance is good they're not, they existed to get magic from the polar where theres plenty of it down to the places where theres less of it.
And even if it is bi directional then I still think its unlikely that waystones individually address each package that would mean that whenever a specific site needed more magic they'd need to go off to a bunch of different waystones and update them, and then repeat that when they were done. More likely that a place requiring magic marks itself as a sink and algorithm on a waystone level deals with attempting to balance between different places it could possibly send its magic to have equal levels of magic.
But yeah I guess we can't know for sure.

So now in order to make your plan work we also need to figure to out the delivery system to ensure the waystone sends it to the right place. So either its easy

 

[DragonParadox]

Dunno if agree that the chance is good they're not, they existed to get magic from the polar where theres plenty of it down to the places where theres less of it.
And even if it is bi directional then I still think its unlikely that waystones individually address each package that would mean that whenever a specific site needed more magic they'd need to go off to a bunch of different waystones and update them, and then repeat that when they were done. More likely that a place requiring magic marks itself as a sink and algorithm on a waystone level deals with attempting to balance between different places it could possibly send its magic to have equal levels of magic.
But yeah I guess we can't know for sure.

So now in order to make your plan work we also need to figure to out the delivery system to ensure the waystone sends it to the right place. So either its easy

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See the thing is the rocks we currently have can't have been put there by elves because we just met the elves and the stones have been there for long enough that Yori knew about them, which means these are original Old One rocks from their transport network. I do not think there is anything to update on an individual level, it is just that the Vortex is using likely several Ulthuan nodes to signal 'send power this way'.

 

[Alratan]

See the thing is the rocks we currently have can't have been put there by elves because we just met the elves and the stones have been there for long enough that Yori knew about them, which means these are original Old One rocks from their transport network. I do not think there is anything to update on an individual level, it is just that the Vortex is using likely several Ulthuan nodes to signal 'send power this way'.

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Also worth remembering is that the polar warp gates (to be precise above the poles) weren't the only warp gates, just by far the largest.

 

[Dark as Silver]

See the thing is the rocks we currently have can't have been put there by elves because we just met the elves and the stones have been there for long enough that Yori knew about them, which means these are original Old One rocks from their transport network. I do not think there is anything to update on an individual level, it is just that the Vortex is using likely several Ulthuan nodes to signal 'send power this way'.

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Nobody is disagreeing that this is an Old One Network. I'm disagreeing about their intentions and expectations using it.

Dunno if agree that the chance is good they're not, they existed to get magic from the polar where theres plenty of it down to the places where theres less of it.

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You realise how this is different from the vortex? The purpose of the vortex is to get excess magic to somewhere it can be used and destroyed.

Now setting that aside....
Okay, so I think we're both talking about this scenario, when we consider what a bi directional network might have looked like:

More likely that a place requiring magic marks itself as a sink and algorithm on a waystone level deals with attempting to balance between different places it could possibly send its magic to have equal levels of magic.

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In some form.
I think I went a step further and suggested that the signal deciding on the direction of flow between two neighbouring waystones is which one has a lower level of ambient magic. And that a specific waystone can be flipped to say send all magic to me.
I am not compelling you to agree with me on those. Just recognise that when I raise further problems, I'm raising them against concepts of a bi directional network. Please don't try to explain that this is an old one network to me again.

The thing is, even disregarding the additional assumptions I suggested, how do you make the waystone send the packet of magic to the right place without being able to individually control that on a waystone level? Which you do not believe we can do.
If it just sends it out in all directions, then you have to accept that your message can't just be read by the intended recipient, it can also be read by everyone with a waystone an equal amount of jumps away from yours (at least, theres nothing to say the message stops currently).

 

[DragonParadox]

Nobody is disagreeing that this is an Old One Network. I'm disagreeing about their intentions and expectations using it.

You realise how this is different from the vortex? The purpose of the vortex is to get excess magic to somewhere it can be used and destroyed.

Now setting that aside....
Okay, so I think we're both talking about this scenario, when we consider what a bi directional network might have looked like:

In some form.
I think I went a step further and suggested that the signal deciding on the direction of flow between two neighbouring waystones is which one has a lower level of ambient magic. And that a specific waystone can be flipped to say send all magic to me.
I am not compelling you to agree with me on those. Just recognise that when I raise further problems, I'm raising them against concepts of a bi directional network. Please don't try to explain that this is an old one network to me again.

The thing is, even disregarding the additional assumptions I suggested, how do you make the waystone send the packet of magic to the right place without being able to individually control that on a waystone level? Which you do not believe we can do.
If it just sends it out in all directions, then you have to accept that your message can't just be read by the intended recipient, it can also be read by everyone with a waystone an equal amount of jumps away from yours (at least, theres nothing to say the message stops currently).

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Oh yeah sure I expect all of that to raise issues and probably some more we can't even anticipate, but I still think it will be easier to design than a whole system from the ground up and certainly easier to build since in the case of Waystones you don't have to.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Oh yeah sure I expect all of that to raise issues and probably some more we can't even anticipate, but I still think it will be easier to design than a whole system from the ground up and certainly easier to build since in the case of Waystones you don't have to.

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Thats a misrepresentation of what we're doing.
The Waystones are a magic distribution system. It would be easier to adapt them if the challenge was creating a new magic distribution system.
But the challenge was a communication network.

In order to do it with the waystones, we need to reverse engineer a lot of the Waystones function and then find a way to convert that into a communication method. And if certain scenarios (transmission speed is too slow, fixed single directions) that we cannot know until we do reverse engineering occur the plan falls apart. Meaning that the whole plan fails.
And even if those scenarios do not occur, it still has all of the following drawbacks. Which you haven't contested:

• Everyone who is allowed to send messages through them must be brought into the secret of the waystones, as well as everyone needed to manage and maintain it.
• We currently don't have a way to make them on our own therefore only Karaks who were founded close enough to one get to use this network
• Messages would be visible downstream to everyone who is able to read them flowing past, so secrecy cannot be assumed.
  • There may not even be a way to direct messages meaning they're visible to everyone.
• Leylines cannot be guarded, and plenty of spellcasters draw from them for magic power as well which could accidentally obliterate the message even if its not intentional

+ the other problems that we can't know until reverse engineering like how the actual directionality will affect the message delivery, such as temporal issues where one leyline might be flowing the wrong way when a message needs to pass. If too much magic gets into a leyline it might seep out into earthbound magic and the message could be lost that way.
+ the other things that I haven't brought up like the heavy action cost associated with Waystone research.

As a plan its got quite a lot of unique downsides compared to other suggestions and theres nothing there that actually looks easy.

 

[Luftwaffles27]

New idea for a ranged weapon. What if we take a bolt from bolt thrower, make it gromril/adamant, add a bunch of mechanisms such as controllable fins to it like those used in missiles, and use it like a javelin?

Possible rune combo would be:

• Master Rune of Flight
• Rune of Accuracy
• Rune of Animation

[Flight] so that the javelin is easily recoverable after being thrown with the force of a bolt thrower. [Accuracy] or some other rune to provide a "lock-on" function. And [Animation] to steer the thrown projectile using its fins to a much greater extent than with the Accuracy rune alone.

A potential add-on would be a mechanism that lets the tip of the javelin expand when its left stuck inside a hard target, so that whenever it's recalled the weapon also drags the enemy with it directly into hammer-striking range.

 

[Dark as Silver]

New idea for a ranged weapon. What if we take a bolt from bolt thrower, make it gromril/adamant, add a bunch of mechanisms such as controllable fins to it like those used in missiles, and use it like a javelin?

Possible rune combo would be:

• Master Rune of Flight
• Rune of Accuracy
• Rune of Animation

[Flight] so that the javelin is easily recoverable after being thrown with the force of a bolt thrower. [Accuracy] or some other rune to provide a "lock-on" function. And [Animation] to steer the thrown projectile using its fins to a much greater extent than with the Accuracy rune alone.

A potential add-on would be a mechanism that lets the tip of the javelin expand when its left stuck inside a hard target, so that whenever it's recalled the weapon also drags the enemy with it directly into hammer-striking range.

Click to shrink...

As a concept, seems like something that we'd get better use out of once we actually have some war engines for the Hearthguard.
It would probably be too unwieldy to use as a javelin given how short dwarven limbs are.
And even if the MFlight is able to pick up the slack for that wouldn't it just stack better with being launched from an actual bolt thrower?

I doubt animation on fins would really get much of a difference, certainly less than just another accuracy rune.
I think there would be better ways of getting the function to attach to enemies rather than expanding it. For example thats exactly what the Rune of Barbs does. Its currently unknown but the lore for it is that its a Rune of Locking variant which... also isn't on the Rune List??? I think thats one of the runes that we just assume Snorri knows and so no one suggested it?

Rune of Barbs: Causes weapons and projectiles to fuse to targets struck by them.
An example of how the rule of form can greatly change a rune as this derived from Runes of Locking. This is usually a hinderance on melee weapons however combined with effects like the Rune of fire is the inevitable death of the victim unless the barbed weapon is cut out first.

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[Broccoliccoli]

New idea for a ranged weapon. What if we take a bolt from bolt thrower, make it gromril/adamant, add a bunch of mechanisms such as controllable fins to it like those used in missiles, and use it like a javelin?

Possible rune combo would be:

• Master Rune of Flight
• Rune of Accuracy
• Rune of Animation

[Flight] so that the javelin is easily recoverable after being thrown with the force of a bolt thrower. [Accuracy] or some other rune to provide a "lock-on" function. And [Animation] to steer the thrown projectile using its fins to a much greater extent than with the Accuracy rune alone.

A potential add-on would be a mechanism that lets the tip of the javelin expand when its left stuck inside a hard target, so that whenever it's recalled the weapon also drags the enemy with it directly into hammer-striking range.

Click to shrink...

It's an awkward aesthetic, but a weapon like that would fit well for our big capstone gronti. Literal tons of sharpened adamant, thrown from the sky and with a rune of Flight on it, is going to solve a lot of problems very efficiently.

 

[Darkwood2027]

Possible rune combo would be:

• Master Rune of Flight
• Rune of Accuracy
• Rune of Animation

Click to shrink...

Theoretical: Could this combination of Runes make a projectile seek out new targets after impact? If so, what happens if we put it on a large saw blade?

 

[Luftwaffles27]

As a concept, seems like something that we'd get better use out of once we actually have some war engines for the Hearthguard.
It would probably be too unwieldy to use as a javelin given how short dwarven limbs are.
And even if the MFlight is able to pick up the slack for that wouldn't it just stack better with being launched from an actual bolt thrower?

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The effects description of the Master Rune of Flight is "Weapons cannot be lost, and can be thrown at the enemy as if launched from a bolt thrower", so I'm pretty confident short dwarven limbs can still throw them effectively.

I assumed that including the bolt thrower into the mix would have it require Engineering runes instead of Weapon runes, and the Master Rune of Flight is a Weapon rune. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong in this, because being wrong implies we could use up to 6 runes per bolt thrower: 3 for the machine itself, and 2 for the ammunition (with one reserved for the Flight rune so that the runic weapon is impossible to lose to the enemy).

I doubt animation on fins would really get much of a difference, certainly less than just another accuracy rune.

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One, Accuracy runes are not stacking. And two, we'll never know until we try. It also helps that I'm just trying to recreate the flight control systems of modern missiles, something that has been proven to work very effectively in real life.

I think there would be better ways of getting the function to attach to enemies rather than expanding it. For example thats exactly what the Rune of Barbs does. Its currently unknown but the lore for it is that its a Rune of Locking variant which... also isn't on the Rune List??? I think thats one of the runes that we just assume Snorri knows and so no one suggested it?

Click to shrink...

The Rune of Animation is essentially pulling double duty here, controlling the fins for better steering and controlling the tip so that it expands inside an enemy. Even assuming Snorri knows the Rune of Barbs, the weapon is already 3 for 3 on runes and the Rune of Animation is just too versatile to replace when combined with creative use of mechanisms. We could also just forget about having the javelin hook itself inside the enemy and use retractable blades that pop out and cause severe internal damage. It'll be all the more devastating when we recall the weapon back and it leaves a much larger wound than when it entered.

 

[catDreaming]

The effects description of the Master Rune of Flight is "Weapons cannot be lost, and can be thrown at the enemy as if launched from a bolt thrower", so I'm pretty confident short dwarven limbs can still throw them effectively.

I assumed that including the bolt thrower into the mix would have it require Engineering runes instead of Weapon runes, and the Master Rune of Flight is a Weapon rune. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong in this, because being wrong implies we could use up to 6 runes per bolt thrower: 3 for the machine itself, and 2 for the ammunition (with one reserved for the Flight rune so that the runic weapon is impossible to lose to the enemy).

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We have seen that you can make a Bolt with Runes on it, way back during the Incursion. It's the Dragon's Spite in the Creations Of Note informational post, list as a weapon that has Weapon Runes on it. Used to deadly effect against Kholek Suneater both as ammunition for a Bolt Thrower and then later by the King Of The Skies literally impaling Kholek Suneater with it multiple times through the fight.

 

[Luftwaffles27]

We have seen that you can make a Bolt with Runes on it, way back during the Incursion. It's the Dragon's Spite in the Creations Of Note informational post, list as a weapon that has Weapon Runes on it. Used to deadly effect against Kholek Suneater both as ammunition for a Bolt Thrower and then later by the King Of The Skies literally impaling Kholek Suneater with it multiple times through the fight.

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So what you're telling me is that it's possible to turn Skaudardrengi into a draconic AC-130 gunship if we manage to attach a bunch of 6-rune bolt throwers on it?

 

[catDreaming]

So what you're telling me is that it's possible to turn Skaudardrengi into a draconic AC-130 gunship if we manage to attach a bunch of 6-rune bolt throwers on it?

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I guess? But you'd also need every single bolt be individually runed. And a fair amount of what made the Dragon's Spite so powerful was the fact that it had a Grudge Rune with Kholek Suneater as the target.

Kind of surprised we haven't done more with Grudge runes, tbh. Powerful things, those.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

So what you're telling me is that it's possible to turn Skaudardrengi into a draconic AC-130 gunship if we manage to attach a bunch of 6-rune bolt throwers on it?

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Skip the bolt throwers. It's 130 tons of indestructible metal that can choose to be 13 tons of metal and fly miles up into the atmosphere. It can literally act as a kinetic impactor if it goes up high enough. And that's before all the MWandering gear that'll make it go faster on the way back down by giving it pure speed and reducing friction/drag. The question is how high up can it get before the airs too thin to let it fly.

 

[Luftwaffles27]

Skip the bolt throwers. It's 130 tons of indestructible metal that can choose to be 13 tons of metal and fly miles up into the atmosphere. It can literally act as a kinetic impactor if it goes up high enough. And that's before all the MWandering gear that'll make it go faster on the way back down by giving it pure speed and reducing friction/drag.

Click to shrink...

We could also try to find a way to combine the effects of MWandering and MPassage (Two separate talismans? Simplify one of them for a rune combo?) to hopefully make Skaudardrengi able to "swim" through the earth. Imagine having it divebomb an enemy champion so hard it traps them in a pit many kilometers deep, and then it fires Zon-Dum at the champion as it flies back up, cooking it in a pool of melted magma.

The question is how high up can it get before the airs too thin to let it fly.

Click to shrink...

Rune of Breezes. DAWI SPACE PROGRAM HERE WE COME!

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

We could also try to find a way to combine the effects of MWandering and MPassage (Two separate talismans? Simply one of them for a rune combo?) to hopefully make Skaudardrengi able to "swim" through the earth. Imagine having it divebomb an enemy champion so hard it traps them in a pit many kilometers deep, and then it fires Zon-Dum at the champion as it flies back up, cooking it in a pool of melted magma.


Rune of Breezes. DAWI SPACE PROGRAM HERE WE COME!

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I think MWandering is just a straight up better version of MPassage that was created via a MPassage combo. I don't remember if @BungieONI has posted the current plans for the loadout somewhere but to summarize it's currently slated for MFeatherweight/speed/breezes on the wings make it fly good, and then has the relentless pursuit combo with MWandering/impact/Grimnir.

This is relentless pursuit: The user can run at incredible speeds and jump the height of three average dwarfs with ease. Running towards the enemy further improves the user's speed. The user's first blow at the end of their charge deals a far greater amount of damage.

That may or may not include the dragon impacting whatever we want erased depending on what is considered the first blow. Add to all that the compressed version of Deepgate boosting both MFeatherweight and MWandering and it's going to be accelerating downwards a lot faster than gravity alone.

 

[BungieONI]

I think MWandering is just a straight up better version of MPassage that was created via a MPassage combo. I don't remember if @BungieONI has posted the current plans for the loadout somewhere but to summarize it's currently slated for MFeatherweight/speed/breezes on the wings make it fly good, and then has the relentless pursuit combo with MWandering/impact/Grimnir.

This is relentless pursuit: The user can run at incredible speeds and jump the height of three average dwarfs with ease. Running towards the enemy further improves the user's speed. The user's first blow at the end of their charge deals a far greater amount of damage.

That may or may not include the dragon impacting whatever we want erased depending on what is considered the first blow. Add to all that the compressed version of Deepgate boosting both MFeatherweight and MWandering and it's going to be accelerating downwards a lot faster than gravity alone.

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Mmm, I think the terrain swimming might actually be in Passage. Let me check her work. Ohp no, I was just wrong, Stonestrider had Wandering. Tunneling Charge swaps Grimnir for Cleaving.

I haven't posted the loadout since its not relevant till like, post turn 60 at least and don't want to clutter the thread. Its pinned in the discord's #the-rhun-room channel if people want to go look at it though. the Tl;dr is that its meant to give Skaud abilities like a magic greedy Storm Wyrm; the physical prowess, the elemental manipulations, and all the magic of the world pulled into it by the Heart talisman.

E: If people want to see it in the current form I'll post it.

 

[Darkwood2027]

(I have a proposal)
Darkwood's Backburner Workshop:
Objective: Burudin Challenge, Snorri's (Provide a rune or rune combo that has the possibility of true killing daemons, with said rune or combo being teachable to master runesmiths.)
Datapoint: Most effects that 'kill' daemons do so by disrupting the energies that a comprise a daemon's body forcing them to retreat to the Warp to reform.
Datapoint: Applying True Death to a daemon is really, really hard. But produces Voidstone when successful.
Datapoint: According to the testimony of Fingrod Fingrodsson [Circa 113 AP, Grand Conclave part 1], Daemons have been killed by hostile magic affecting them when they were halfway banished back to the Warp
Hypothesis: If the energies that compose a Daemon can be altered or destroyed, the Daemon will suffer True Death.
Proposed Method: Reduce a Daemon's body to its base energies and feed those energies to a Hysh-infused fire. (ANNIHILATE THEIR COMPONENT ENERGIES! Leave nothing but Hysh and Void behind!)

Proposed Rune Combo:
Master Rune of Purification: Burns the target from the inside out, especially effective against magical entities. Actively uses nearby magic to increase the effect's potency.
Rune of Gazul's Flame: Generates a magical flame that is especially effective against Daemons.
Rune of Calcination [Create Weapon Variant]: Alters flame to burn away all physical matter, leaving only ash single component wind.

Desired Result: The innermost core of the target is lit with black fire, and all the rest of the energy that comprises the target's body is pulled in to feed it. Until all that's left is a hysh-touched flame.

Notes: From what I know the fire made by [Gazul's Flame] is hysh aligned, and I'm hoping that affinity can be transferred to the rest of the set. If some kind of Hysh-infused reagent can be added to [M.Purification] or [Calcination] then the [Gazul's Flame] rune can be replaced with another. [Daemonslaying] may be suitable as replacement but disrupting the energies that compose a daemon's body may either render it more vulnerable to Hysh-burning or alternatively it might be detrimental by allowing the daemon a chance to escape incorporeally. [Cooking] might also be applicable for directing the outcome, though in a more roundabout method.