RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[NSMS]

I don't know what I can say in response to this...
I also want to see what the new research is.?
...
But its a mystery box.
Anything could be inside the mystery box.
It could even be better material research.

I'm having a hard time understanding how this fits into the previous posts.
Are we just using different terms?
Is this a gamblers preference on your part that you think materials at worst is a potential dead end, but that researching the hammer is not also potentially a dead end toward breaking the rule of three?
Do you also think that the hammer research could also be sub-optimal at best or a dead end at worst, and actually the miscommunication is on me for assuming that you thought the results of the hammer research were guaranteed to be at least as short a route as materials? Which I thought you implied when you said best case for material is being sub-optimal.

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To clarify: I expect that relying on materials alone will place a hard cap on the number of runes that can be placed on an artefact. It might be four, it might be five, but I think it will exist and not be too much higher than three (seeing as adamant can still only do three). Worst case, materials alone won't let you break the rule of three at all, but I suspect that's not going to be what happens (if only because it'd suck from a dramatic/narrative standpoint).

Skill-based breaking the rule of three, meanwhile, has already been demonstrated to have higher limits than what I'd expect from using materials alone, and has also been the method of choice for both artefacts we've seen with more than three runes. Because of that I feel it's a deeper well to tap, with higher payoff if we figure out how to do it. Essentially, I think it's got the potential to be the superior option, with the complicating factor being that we're still fumbling for a starting point on how to actually do it. My hope with the hammer is that it'll provide that starting point once we get the chance to study the thing properly.

Basically, my gut instinct is saying that materials is an option with a hard limit on how far it can go, while skill either doesn't have that limit or has it much higher. That makes materials a useful stepping point, but ultimately a dead end in the very (very) long term.

(and to be clear, this is all speculation/what what we've seen suggests to me specifically, not something I'm saying is definitive fact)

 

[Gabriel_TFA]

Sounds like what Yorri told Snorri about three things that make a runesmith.

 

[Byzantine]

The real trick is how the hell Thungi kept it balanced while the runes were still being struck. Because it's clear the hammer is using some kind of balance trick that is somehow allowing it to treat itself as a single normal combo instead of the 7 runes it is.

But during part of that process it would have had that combo incomplete, yet still too many runes to withstand normally.

...Is... is it about balancing not just the final product, but even step on the path?

Basically, the path that the runes were struck had to be such that it always had some kind of combo-trick going to keep it from exploding after the first three.

 

[Gabriel_TFA]

Given how it was shown...I feel like every rune balanced each other out. Master runes balanced each other out, two runes balanced one master rune on the left, the other two balanced one on the right...and two middle ones balanced the middle master rune. It is like using the Rule of Three three times...

 

[tri2]

The real trick is how the hell Thungi kept it balanced while the runes were still being struck. Because it's clear the hammer is using some kind of balance trick that is somehow allowing it to treat itself as a single normal combo instead of the 7 runes it is.

But during part of that process it would have had that combo incomplete, yet still too many runes to withstand normally.

...Is... is it about balancing not just the final product, but even step on the path?

Basically, the path that the runes were struck had to be such that it always had some kind of combo-trick going to keep it from exploding after the first three.

Click to shrink...

maybe you have to carve all the runes at the same time
like 7 runes being made, so have to do first strike for each rune, then do second strike for each rune, and so on and so forth?

 

[Byzantine]

maybe you have to carve all the runes at the same time
like 7 runes being made, so have to do first strike for each rune, then do second strike for each rune, and so on and so forth?

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Maybe, but even then they would complete on different strokes.

My thought is that every completed rune has to itself be a viable 4+ combo in the order they are completed, on top of whatever else is needed to make the final product actually stable

 

[Gabriel_TFA]

maybe you have to carve all the runes at the same time
like 7 runes being made, so have to do first strike for each rune, then do second strike for each rune, and so on and so forth?

Click to shrink...

No, I don't it would work like that, and I think it was tried but quite possible the results were explosive. OR runes did not even activated.

 

[Dark as Silver]

To clarify: I expect that relying on materials alone will place a hard cap on the number of runes that can be placed on an artefact. It might be four, it might be five, but I think it will exist and not be too much higher than three (seeing as adamant can still only do three). Worst case, materials alone won't let you break the rule of three at all, but I suspect that's not going to be what happens (if only because it'd suck from a dramatic/narrative standpoint).

Skill-based breaking the rule of three, meanwhile, has already been demonstrated to have higher limits than what I'd expect from using materials alone, and has also been the method of choice for both artefacts we've seen with more than three runes. Because of that I feel it's a deeper well to tap, with higher payoff if we figure out how to do it. Essentially, I think it's got the potential to be the superior option, with the complicating factor being that we're still fumbling for a starting point on how to actually do it. My hope with the hammer is that it'll provide that starting point once we get the chance to study the thing properly.

Basically, my gut instinct is saying that materials is an option with a hard limit on how far it can go, while skill either doesn't have that limit or has it much higher. That makes materials a useful stepping point, but ultimately a dead end in the very (very) long term.

(and to be clear, this is all speculation/what what we've seen suggests to me specifically, not something I'm saying is definitive fact)

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Yeah but again. We've always known older dwarves can do more with steel than we can with Gromril. This isn't something new with the hammer, we're just finally getting examples of something soulcake told us very early in the quest.

Until we've done the hammer research, Materials is actually the only research path we have apart from just trying shit and hoping that we find a magic way to phrase the physical description of the item to just hack it.
To say something is sub optimal is to say we have better choices, and all we have is the hope that this research will do it or unlock a better choice for us.
And we can't grind skill (there might be one way, increasing our rune library however I have never seen the source for this claim), that just happens over time. Just waiting until we're 3000 years old might do it. However maybe we'll be able to do 2000 years old with Adamant and that seems more optimal than waiting another 1000 years.

The real trick is how the hell Thungi kept it balanced while the runes were still being struck. Because it's clear the hammer is using some kind of balance trick that is somehow allowing it to treat itself as a single normal combo instead of the 7 runes it is.

But during part of that process it would have had that combo incomplete, yet still too many runes to withstand normally.

...Is... is it about balancing not just the final product, but even step on the path?

Basically, the path that the runes were struck had to be such that it always had some kind of combo-trick going to keep it from exploding after the first three.

Click to shrink...

Its not clear though. Theres no rune counter balancing the Grounding rune on the front of the hammer and its not a unique explaination.
Its possible but I don't think anyone can disprove the null hypothesis until we know far more.
Frankly keeping it balanced while forging is an argument against the balance hypothesis. Not a sign that Thungni beat something that was a proven fact.

Given how it was shown...I feel like every rune balanced each other out. Master runes balanced each other out, two runes balanced one master rune on the left, the other two balanced one on the right...and two middle ones balanced the middle master rune. It is like using the Rule of Three three times...

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He means how they balanced it out when there was one Master rune on one side. And whatever what the balance for that was applied.
Like as each rune was applied from 1 -> 2 -> 3 and so on, at some point it must have been unbalanced.

maybe you have to carve all the runes at the same time
like 7 runes being made, so have to do first strike for each rune, then do second strike for each rune, and so on and so forth?

Click to shrink...

I don't think this is the worst answer, but its not complete.
Timing matters, so it might not be possible to do that. Eventually you might have to just be hitting in two or three places at once.

 

[tri2]

I don't think this is the worst answer, but its not complete.
Timing matters, so it might not be possible to do that. Eventually you might have to just be hitting in two or three places at once.

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maybe if we advance mind rune to do multi limb prosthetics?

edit: wait didn't we talk about a runic machine before that was mentioned in canon that could create simple runes? maybe it is something related to that? thungni making a machine to create a singular rune while he made another one at the same time?

double edit: or it could be something else, we have seen grimnir carve a active rune with his fingers, whose to say thungni could not do the same? but with two runes at the same time, ambidexterity using two hands to carve two different runes on his hammer simultaneously

 

[NSMS]

Yeah but again. We've always known older dwarves can do more with steel than we can with Gromril. This isn't something new with the hammer, we're just finally getting examples of something soulcake told us very early in the quest.

Until we've done the hammer research, Materials is actually the only research path we have apart from just trying shit and hoping that we find a magic way to phrase the physical description of the item to just hack it.
To say something is sub optimal is to say we have better choices, and all we have is the hope that this research will do it or unlock a better choice for us.
And we can't grind skill (there might be one way, increasing our rune library however I have never seen the source for this claim), that just happens over time. Just waiting until we're 3000 years old might do it. However maybe we'll be able to do 2000 years old with Adamant and that seems more optimal than waiting another 1000 years.

Click to shrink...

I always took the 'do more with steel' comment as meaning better results from the same rune combos, not being able to do more runes on the same material. I'm also looking at the skill route as less 'you must have X years experience to do this' and more as 'there's this set of incredibly difficult tricks that you have to learn', if that makes sense?

 

[Dark as Silver]

edit: wait didn't we talk about a runic machine before that was mentioned in canon that could create simple runes? maybe it is something related to that? thungni making a machine to create a singular rune while he made another one at the same time?

Click to shrink...

Not unless that machine was descended from the blood of Thungni.

double edit: or it could be something else, we have seen grimnir carve a active rune with his fingers, whose to sail thungni could not do the same? but with two runes at the same time, ambidexterity using two hands to carve two different runes on his hammer simultaneously

Click to shrink...

Sounds more likely. Heres the scene, he actually used his axe.

He stares at you, eyes searching for something before muttering so quietly that even you cannot hear him. Then Grimnir jabs a finger into your chest, right where your heart is.

"Remember this day lad. Not the saga, nor the glory that comes from it, but the feeling of flesh failing and armour breaking. Of spending every last piece of yourself and then spending beyond even that. Of using nothing but your Will to keep going, because the alternative means all you care about crumbles around you," he says, gaze inscrutable.

You can only nod despite your muscles' screams of protest.

"Feh," Grimnir says before pulling out his axe, and finding a stone tablet, inscribes something on its surface.

You stare, bug-eyed, as the tablet hums and flares with power before lowering to a more tolerable level of light.

"Fight and live well Snorri son of Klaus, and die for something even better than that," the Ancestor says, dusting off his pants as he gets up and walks out of the room.

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The answer here is who fucking knows, only soulcake. Ancestors may have more leeway when they are carving their own runes, ancestor runes are weird like that. And he still did it one at a time.

I always took the 'do more with steel' comment as meaning better results from the same rune combos, not being able to do more runes on the same material. I'm also looking at the skill route as less 'you must have X years experience to do this' and more as 'there's this set of incredibly difficult tricks that you have to learn', if that makes sense?

Click to shrink...

Well... I thought it was generally accepted that a master dwarvern blacksmith would just smith steel stronger than IRL because Warhammer lives in a rule of cool heightened reality.

 

[tri2]

Not unless that machine was descended from the blood of Thungni.

Sounds more likely. Heres the scene, he actually used his axe.

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maybe, but i think there was something in canon that did it? think we talked about it like at the beginning of the quest?

point still stands, thungni might have just used two hands wielding tools to carve two different runes simultaneously

 

[Dark as Silver]

maybe, but i think there was something in canon that did it? think we talked about it like at the beginning of the quest?

point still stands, thungni might have just used two hands wielding tools to carve two different runes simultaneously

Click to shrink...

On both sides? nah at the least he'd have needed on hand free to flip the hammer over like a hot pancake.
And I dunno if the ancestors do anything in a way that I would describe as goofy.

 

[rocketroland999]

The skill route for breaking the rule of three is not new. It's also unrealistic for us to achieve in a reasonable timeframe. As far as we know, nobody except an ancestor god has managed it, including several of Thungni's own students who are more accomplished runelords than we are (though we might be catching up soon, that's due to superior equipment, not superior skill). Material based rule breaking is more likely to yield results than us trying to fix our skill issue compared to literally Thungni. If I had to guess the best route we actually have to break the rule of three is wind sight based. If we manage to break Durin's consternation that would probably give us a route to break the rule of three

 

[tri2]

On both sides? nah at the least he'd have needed on hand free to flip the hammer over like a hot pancake.
And I dunno if the ancestors do anything in a way that I would describe as goofy.

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that implies the hammer was forged with it laying horizontally on something instead of say potentially being held vertically somehow, like say the glowing handle in between his knees so the head was on eye level with him for him to work on, nothing says the ancestors could not be unconventional, they are the pioneers after all, who knows maybe they did what snorri did with forging chainmail on their knees first and then refined the method after the first few links. just saying the point is, its a possible lead on how it might be done.

 

[Evillevi]

What does that mean? How do they balance against each other? What are they actually balancing?

Please elaborate I'd really like to have a solid next step to try.

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I think the first idea would be to max out windsight before we start, but for the Hammer I think what we need is to determine the magnitude and nature of the runes.

1. Currently there are 3 sets of rune. 2 standard Combos and 1 "Regular" combo of 3 similar powered Runes (Master Runes in this case)
2. We know that within the standard operation 2 MRunes cannot exist on the same item, nor can more than 4 Runes exist on an item.
3. In our current theory the Master Rune takes precedence over lesser Runes when used in a combo, so much so we use the MrRR notation or some variation there of.

From this we have some ideas .

• The first is to test the normal variant of the 3 Master Runes and specifically if the order matters. So what we're looking for is does changing which rune in the center have any effect.
• The second is to test if the Regular Runes have any relationship to the Master RUne. Specifically we're looking for if the Runes are the uncompress part of the Master Rune.

My speculation is that the stability of the 7 piece combo is crafted using a central exaust Rune to dump the energy alongside 2 Uncompressed Combos flanking either side . An uincompressed combo being a Master Rune followed by 2 constituent Rune that would have gone into creating the Master RUne. Our equivalent would be like Mr Makestrike + R Smednir and R THungni.

 

[Dark as Silver]

that implies the hammer was forged with it laying horizontally on something instead of say potentially being held vertically somehow, like say the glowing handle in between his knees so the head was on eye level with him for him to work on, nothing says the ancestors could not be unconventional, they are the pioneers after all, who knows maybe they did what snorri did with forging chainmail on their knees first and then refined the method after the first few links. just saying the point is, its a possible lead on how it might be done.

Click to shrink...

Forged vertically?
Do you know what an anvil is?
Forging it vertically raises all sorts of exciting new issues as now we need to bang an ingot of Gromril hard enough to dent Gromril.

I think the first idea would be to max out windsight before we start, but for the Hammer I think what we need is to determine the magnitude and nature of the runes.

1. Currently there are 3 sets of rune. 2 standard Combos and 1 "Regular" combo of 3 similar powered Runes (Master Runes in this case)
2. We know that within the standard operation 2 MRunes cannot exist on the same item, nor can more than 4 Runes exist on an item.
3. In our current theory the Master Rune takes precedence over lesser Runes when used in a combo, so much so we use the MrRR notation or some variation there of.

From this we have some ideas .

• The first is to test the normal variant of the 3 Master Runes and specifically if the order matters. So what we're looking for is does changing which rune in the center have any effect.
• The second is to test if the Regular Runes have any relationship to the Master RUne. Specifically we're looking for if the Runes are the uncompress part of the Master Rune.

My speculation is that the stability of the 7 piece combo is crafted using a central exaust Rune to dump the energy alongside 2 Uncompressed Combos flanking either side . An uincompressed combo being a Master Rune followed by 2 constituent Rune that would have gone into creating the Master RUne. Our equivalent would be like Mr Makestrike + R Smednir and R THungni.

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Took me a mo to realise you were responding to the next step not the balance.
Maxing windsight was a must have for Materials anyway, although elves haven't reverse engineered runecraft so I don't think the theory can be entirely explained via windsight.

1) Just to clarify for my visualisation, are you moving into this interpretation of the hammer runes:

(MPrecision, MGrounding, MCraftsmanship)
/____|________________ |______ \
Breaking, Flamecraft _______ Forgecraft, MetalCrafts​

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rather than one of these?

(RRMr) Mr (MrRR)
and

RR (MrMrMr) RR

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the second option there might be the combo of 3 MRunes you mentioned but it leaves the regular runes on either side dangling.
This theory still doesn't hold well for Grimnirs axe, unless its working via a different approach

- Examined Urkdrengi [Combo, ???: Master Rune 1, Master Rune 2, Master Rune 3?, ???, ???,]

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In order for that to fit it would have to be something like:

(Master Rune 1, Master Rune 2, Master Rune 3)
/________ \
Basic Rune 1 Basic Rune2​

Which might be acceptable but loses some of the pleasing symmetry that the theory has for the Hammer. It keeps it within the three rune limit assuming that this is how its being treated, but you can't really balance 5/3 runes or have a central exhaust on an axe with only two flat areas for inscribing.

I don't think the order we typically write out combos matters, some things like Forging must be applied before the object is created according to their lore however soulcake still offers it third.

Mold the Metal

Rune of Might

Rune of Smednir

Rune of Forging

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However I'm sure @soulcake will be willing to clarify if we potentially need to invent 6 times the number of combos according to the order of runes. That seems like way too much work for anyone to do and something that would just spawn bad feeling if we lost a combo because we ordered the vote wrong.

 

[Gabriel_TFA]

I feel like we are close with how we can do multiple runes but we are missing few important pieces.

 

[Evillevi]

@Dark as Silver

I assumes that the 5 and 7 Rune comboes rely on different mechanisms to acheive what they achieve. Specifically my assumption for the 7 Rune combo is that you need a Master Rune compressed from a set of (Master+Rune +Rune)

From our Rune list we can theoretically use this set

Master Rune Ancestral Aegis combo	Master Rune of Purification	Master Rune Daemonward combo
Rune of Valaya		Rune of Sanctuary
Rune of Spellbreaking		Rune of Determination

The idea being that each complete row /columns represent a valid combo and by balancing it this way you can buff the output of the Runed item high enough to not instantly self destruct from the awesome power of 3 Master Rune.

Off course We need a testing regime to figure out which part of this hypothehtical combo matches the Thungni Hammer ones and replace the part that doesn't work alongside figuring out the correct order of operation to make something like this.

 

[Gabriel_TFA]

It is quite possible effects of the runes and master runes need synergy to create a stable chain of runes.

 

[Dark as Silver]

From our Rune list we can theoretically use this set

Click to shrink...

Just providing the known real sets so that we don't need to speculate on which combos might make a theoretical set

Grimnir's Burning Wroth	Set	Meteorfall Not Compressed	Pyrestrike Not Compressed (Banner variant of MInferno?)	Relentless Pursuit Not Compressed
Rhunkiklad	Set	Gromril-like No MRunes Compressed (MGromril)	Magic Breaker No MRunes Not Compressed???	Glittering Beacon No MRunes Compressed (MAmplification)	Amplifier Compressed (MThungni's Presense)
The World That Was	Set	Makerstrike Not Compressed (MForgecraft???)	Mountainsouled Not Compressed	Storm Mantle Not Compressed
Grungni's Challenge	Set	Rouse the Forge No MRunes Not Compressed	Heat the Metal No MRunes Not Compressed	Mold the Metal No MRunes Not Compressed

So rather than the theoretical one you offer we could do

Rune of Steel	Master Rune of Thungni's Presense	Rune of SpellBreaking
Rune of Fortitude		Rune of Spelleating
Rune of SpellEating		Rune of Thungni

We wouldn't be breaking the rule of three on MRunes but we should be certain that the runes would form a set. And breaking the rule of three by 4 regular runes would already be a hell of a shot for a first time.
Alternately we could wait to compress one of the combos in World that was or GBW and then use that.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

@Dark as Silver

I assumes that the 5 and 7 Rune comboes rely on different mechanisms to acheive what they achieve. Specifically my assumption for the 7 Rune combo is that you need a Master Rune compressed from a set of (Master+Rune +Rune)

From our Rune list we can theoretically use this set

Master Rune Ancestral Aegis combo	Master Rune of Purification	Master Rune Daemonward combo
Rune of Valaya		Rune of Sanctuary
Rune of Spellbreaking		Rune of Determination

The idea being that each complete row /columns represent a valid combo and by balancing it this way you can buff the output of the Runed item high enough to not instantly self destruct from the awesome power of 3 Master Rune.

Off course We need a testing regime to figure out which part of this hypothehtical combo matches the Thungni Hammer ones and replace the part that doesn't work alongside figuring out the correct order of operation to make something like this.

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I think this becomes even trickier because you need two combos that don't have too similar effects but can still link into the third MRune. Basically, I think KKR is Thungni's best attempt at a set combo on one item and he got stuck at 7 runes. Let's take KKR's runes and try to piece the combos together. I like the idea of needing to balance row/column to keep the item from exploding.
Rune of Flamecraft, Rune of Breaking, Master Rune of Precision,Thungni's Master Rune of Grounding, Master Rune of Craftsmanship, Rune of Forgecraft, Rune of Metalcraft

Master Rune of Precision	Master Rune of Grounding	Master Rune of Craftsmanship
Rune of Metalcraft		Rune of Flamecraft
Rune of Breaking		Rune of Forgecraft

The problem here is while MCraftsmanship can easily come from a MRune/2 rune combo of 3/4 of the normal runes, I'm not sure you can Make MGrounding or MPrecision from a combo of 2/4 of the normal runes.

Now in terms of piecing the combos together and figuring out why it works later, here's my best guess: MGrounding is the connector rune. The hammer lets you strike with perfect thermal and kinetic control, we know MMakerstrike will get you most of that and I'm willing to bet MMakerstrike is part of MCraftsmanship so I'm giving that property to the craftsmanship column and throwing flame/forgecraft in there. Metalcraft and breaking could be responsible for the knowledge of critical properties and flaws, so those two go with precision.

If you do it this way, the normal runes look like they can form a potential combo between metal/flamecraft and breaking/forgecraft. To reach the set combo, you'd have to find a third normal rune that can successfully pull a combo in the row and column it's in. What combos with MGrounding? It feels like it's a MRune derived from dispelling runes and siphoning, so it's an energy regulator rune. Could try fiting in other energy manipulating runes that we know of. The middle row is a pure crafting combo imo. Maybe flamedrinking if it isn't already covered by flamecraft? The bottom row needs a rune to connect breaking and crafting that also fits an energy regulator combo.

Master Rune of Precision	Master Rune of Grounding	Master Rune of Craftsmanship
Rune of Metalcraft	Rune of Flamedrinking	Rune of Flamecraft
Rune of Breaking	???	Rune of Forgecraft

 

[Dark as Silver]

???

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I hate that I'm the one proposing this because I usually complain about our tendandcy to stick ancestor runes on things as a first resort, but if you wanted something with both magical effects for the column and craft effects for the row: Rune of Thungni.

Although you'd need to explain why left and right combos can't be too similar?

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

I hate that I'm the one proposing this because I usually complain about our tendandcy to stick ancestor runes on things as a first resort, but if you wanted something with both magical effects for the column and craft effects for the row: Rune of Thungni.

Although you'd need to explain why left and right combos can't be too similar?

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Hmm, when I said that I was mostly thinking about combos that are both antimagic or something where if we had two dispelling combos like Deep gate and ancestral aegis you might get antisynergy from taking up each other's fuel so to speak. Probably not an issue on a talisman/banner set combo but on one item maybe?

 

[tri2]

question...grungni stated he could feel our banner and called it a foci right? hence it is actively channeling the ancestor gods....does this mean a upgraded eye could see the direction from which the banner is drawing power from the ancestor gods and find them, potentially?