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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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The Great Giving idea:

Defiant Stone, Inner Courage, Valaya. All on a blanket. Hearthstones as reagents.

Generally, Defiant Stone and Inner Courage on a lot of the toys.
 
steampvnc1880 said:
Wait so Snorri really thought if he accepted being the heir he would have to immediately dump all his own hopes, dreams and projects and go pretend to be exactly like what he thinks Thungni is like or something? Ugh. I mean I'd understand if that was only what other (conservative) dwarfs expected us to do (and it would make them mad if we didn't) but Snorri should still have been able to forge his own path towards alchemy and wind forging or whatever. Besides, nobody knows what Thungni is really like, especially not Snorri who barely ever saw him. How would it even have worked if yes had won?
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Yes but also no.
Snorri thinks day 1 of the job an heir has to align with their masters positions and skills in a way so that you couldn't tell theres been a transition. Over a long enough period he does think its reasonable for them to drift and diverge because the world does change and they will encounter different circumstances.
This is a pretty damn heavy burden and Snorri knows it, thats why our heir isn't Snerra, who is the most talented and most likely to surpass us, its Karstah, who asked for this burden. And if Karstah hadn't asked we wouldn't have picked an heir.
This is probably a position held mostly by conservatives however its worth remembering, Snorri doesn't sit neatly in either the radical or conservative camps and there are actually a lot of dividing lines so very runesmiths are all radical or all conservative.
Evillevi said:
Don't forget the weird or outright wrong interpretations made before the 1st and unofficial 2nd clarification that never got updated or touched upon but that presumably is still active because average votes don't follow past the threadmarked posts.

  1. We can come back to the vote another time.
  2. Do what an Heir does anyway we don't need to officialize it.
  3. We lose the chance of becoming an Ancestor God
  4. There's no possible way to modify Snorri Behavior
  5. THe Heirship is not special or powerful
  6. etc
It's not a good time regardless.
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Number 2 seems valid, I'll add it. Number 5 seems like a misunderstanding, the heirship does not have any formal powers is a thing I'll stand behind, it doesn't make us a guildmaster.
soulcake has ignored vote ideas that snorri would know better than to do in the past though so I don't see why I'd collect outright wrong ones.

E: I think I have reached the final form of my any dice script. AnyDice if anyone can see improvements let me know... apart from the naming conventions
E:E: Possible bug fix AnyDice
 
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LightLan said:
Now for the real question:

Who did Thungni leave the riddle/trial for his staff for and did Vragni win the race?
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If we're lucky? Snerra got the staff, she's one of the people who were picked by Thungni to be a runelord alongside Kazador, however she might not be in the race. If she was given this choice
soulcake said:
A question, an answer or a clue, Snorri the Gift Giver, take your pick."

Choose one.
[ ] [Choice] A Question. A puzzle, to be solved.
[ ] [Choice] An Answer. A challenge, conquered.
[ ] [Choice] A Clue. A hand, pointed down a path.
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then she might have picked something other than clue which gave her MThugni rather than the riddle.

Vragni was probably not in the race, hes not a particularly outstanding runelord despite picking a grudge with Snorri.
 
tri2 said:
vragni getting the staff, gets up about to proclaim himself as heir, snorri stands up first with hammer, claims he is not heir, sits down, vragni now conflicted
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I would hope that Thungni did not make every trial for the artefacts he left behind a trial of heirship. At that point, he might as well just start the civil war/schism himself with the amount of claimants it would produce. Just imagine every Runelord in the next Grand Conclave coming out and bringing out a relic of Thungni's as proof, from a helmet to the man's thongs. And we're just there with his hammer watching it all "Further instructions? Nope, just left me with the hammer to do with it as I please"

Granted, it would be a hilarious turn of events and be the quickest way to eliminate the overly ambitious and power-hungry.
 
MagnificentMind said:
I would hope that Thungni did not make every trial for the artefacts he left behind a trial of heirship. At that point, he might as well just start the civil war/schism himself with the amount of claimants it would produce. Just imagine every Runelord in the next Grand Conclave coming out and bringing out a relic of Thungni's as proof, from a helmet to the man's thongs. And we're just there with his hammer watching it all "Further instructions? Nope, just left me with the hammer to do with it as I please"

Granted, it would be a hilarious turn of events and be the quickest way to eliminate the overly ambitious and power-hungry.
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imagine if that was why alric was not proclaimed heir, he was left with instructions to bonk everyone who tried after completing his trials
 
soulcake said:
Being the heir is leading the entire Runesmiths Guild, full stop. That puts you in a position of power beyond the Kings of several Holds, and Guilds. Its a position that even the High King must acknowledge and, if necessary, keep happy or be prepared to make mad. Your decisions in such a position will sway and affect the entirety of the Karaz Ankor.
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Dark as Silver said:
heirship does not have any formal powers is a thing I'll stand behind, it doesn't make us a guildmaster.
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Being specific I meant that there are votes that believe that the Heir thing is outright useless both formally and informally and saying that it has no power at all is outright wrong.
 
As much as I would laugh at Vragni getting the staff...I don't think Thungi would give him a riddle given Vragni's mindset is kinda skewed, mostly because of his hatred (maybe it is too strong of the word) towards Snorri and what he does. As much as we think Thungi is a troll and mysterious in his way, he won't risk Vragni being one of the possible pillars of the Dawi Society and the Runesmith Guild.
 
Gabriel_TFA said:
As much as I would laugh at Vragni getting the staff...I don't think Thungi would give him a riddle given Vragni's mindset is kinda skewed, mostly because of his hatred (maybe it is too strong of the word) towards Snorri and what he does. As much as we think Thungi is a troll and mysterious in his way, he won't risk Vragni being one of the possible pillars of the Dawi Society and the Runesmith Guild.
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Vragni is also most reactionary and unlike the other chosen doesn't have the characteristics of innovating in a vacumn.
 
MagnificentMind said:
Yeah, this frustrated me the most because while the clarification post only really talked about points already discussed and argued on, it mostly only did so on the side of the 'Not Heir' vote and ignored points by those 'For Heirship'. This skewed the results so much since people took it as QM taking sides and a lot of people just don't go through the discussions altogether and just read what was threadmarked.

It could have been handled better, but the decision is final and we just have to suck it up and deal with it.
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I think this is primarily a problem of inertia.

Ultimately refusing the hammer doesn't really change much for us. People would still have talked about the hammer either way. Refusing is ultimately an option that leaves our options open and only moves us forward in a plot that we have already chosen. So inertia.

On the other hand claiming is a massive unknown which has a lot of implied high-risk high-reward results. And lot of people were voting on it not fully understanding all it entailed. Soulcake clarified in the threadmarked post; which laid out most of the details (much of which those of us discussing it in the thread had already inferred), and when voters saw that a few response occurred I think; either a) seeing it all summed tipped them over to changing their mind, b) a misunderstanding that voter had were corrected which resulted in them realizing what they actually wanted, and c) more causal voters saw all of the unknowns and risks, and got cold feet and changed their mind. The inertia of just staying our current course was familiar and safe; and those who were uncertain chose the safe option.

Ultimately I think the vote actually accurately sums up the majority of the voters opinions. I think if Soulcake hadn't clarified, Claim would have won, and the main reason it would have won was because people misunderstood what they were voting for. That would have resulted in far more acrimony. So I think it ultimately was good thing.

Perhaps their was problem structurally in the vote from the beginning. I'm not certain either way. Because a lot of this comes down to Thungi and Snorri neurosis getting tangled up together. And perhaps Soulcake couldn't have changed how it was done without compromising who the characters are. Realistically people often have to make choices that they have absolutely no clue what the ramifications of it could be. So Snorri getting a vote like that is makes sense; and the fact that emotions got so high is a sign of Soulcakes great writing.
 
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LysanderArgent said:
Ultimately I think the vote actually accurately sums up the majority of the voters opinions. I think if Soulcake hadn't clarified, Claim would have won, and the main reason it would have won was because people misunderstood what they were voting for. That would have resulted in far more acrimony. So I think it ultimately was good thing.
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While I think Refuse would have won on a "fair vote" I think it'll be neck and neck because the structure of this specific vote made a lot of biased inevitable. It's a big decision with too many people with too little time to adequately come to any form of nuanced decision.

Like we still have after the vote is over people who believe that getting the Heir vote had little to no power beyond going our own way (among other things). Largely as one sentence wasn't in a threadmark post and was easily missed. Would Claim have won if that were the threadmark content and the negatives in a normal post?

To be clear I don't think the outcome was bad , but clearly choices like this needs some other structure because it was a horrible feeling process.
 
@Dark as Silver Another two points for your list that come from my reading of the Primer of Durin the Lost that Soulcake gave us before the trial.
soulcake said:
EDIT: On Durin,
Durin Thungnisson, the Eldest, the Greatest, the Lost.

The firstborn son of Thungni would be claimed to be Radical and Conservative by both sides, then again he started Runesmithing well before any such sides had formed. Mighty were his deeds, and revolutionary were his works. Durin was obsessed with pushing the art of Runecraft forward, and after learning all he could from his Father and being deemed worthy of Mastery, he set about that goal with gusto. Developing many Runes that today are foundational to the art, though never as much as his father. Similarly, many of the traditions Masters follow that were not set by Thungni were set by his son. Durin travelled Northwards with his family as they forged the path northwards, settling Dwarf Holds as they went. The eldest of Thungni's children was prolific because of the number of students he personally taught, teaching promising young Kinsmen until shortly before his disappearance several hundred years ago. His was the mind that first found the Consternation that was named after him. His was one of the first hands to bend and forge Gromril, taught by his Uncle, Grandfather and Father after its discovery. During his long life, he founded two groups who are famed and remembered to this day, the Burudin, and later the Brotherhood of Dron. The first, as all know, to be a forum that fostered the development and innovation of new Runes and combinations of thereof, and the other to, unofficially, find a material that could bear more than three Runes of power. Of the many things that can be said of him, all could agree that Durin was a pioneer. A visionary who was not content to follow in his father's footsteps, but wanted to truly walk beside Him.
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1. Durin and Thungi definitely had different interpretations of being Heir than Snorri. Durin definitely didn't act in the way Snorri expects an Heir to act. He learnt from his father, and then walked his own path, doing entirely new things, unwilling to be in his shadow, and hoping to match him as an equal. Yet Durin was proclaimed Thungi's Heir. If Thungi or Durin agreed with Snorri's interpretation of Heir I don't think that could have occurred. Snorri should know all this. This is all information that is publicly known. So how is Snorri supposed to reconcile this discrepancy? And how can he take up being the Heir of Thungi if he doesn't even know what Thungi means by Heir?

2. By Snorri's definition of Heir, Snorri works as Durin's Heir, but not Thungi's Heir. Based on the quoted info we can see that Snorri went northward, helped establish a hold, taught quite a few apprentices, is on the path to figuring out the Consternation, and established an institution of learning about runes and materials. So if this was to choice to be only Durin's Heir it would have been far easier answer. YES! But Snorri doesn't have the same the similarities with Thungi that he has with Durin; which loops back around to his standards not matching Thungi's or Durin's.
 
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My personal suspicion is that Thungi treats the concept of an heir in this situation as something that can't really be put down even if Snorri never claims the title.

Thungi prioritises self knowledge, skill, combat ability, and overall being an embodiment of the Dawi. This feels like one of those situations where really being Thungis heir is more about what you do than the title, at least from his perspective.

Which imo… I think that vibes with what we've seen of him? He's very hands off, and the person he named heir first was more about finding new knowledge and pushing the boundaries of runelore than a beurecrat ensuring the guild ran smoothly. But I might also be reading my own biases into things.
 
LysanderArgent said:
@Dark as Silver Another two points for your list that come from my reading of the Primer of Durin the Lost that Soulcake gave us before the trial.

1. Durin and Thungi definitely had different interpretations of being Heir than Snorri. Durin definitely didn't act in the way Snorri expects an Heir to act. He learnt from his father, and then walked his own path, doing entirely new things, unwilling to be in his shadow, and hoping to match him as an equal. Yet Durin was proclaimed Thungi's Heir. If Thungi or Durin agreed with Snorri's interpretation of Heir I don't think that could have occurred. Snorri should know all this. This is all information that is publicly known. So how is Snorri supposed to reconcile this discrepancy? And how can he take up being the Heir of Thungi if he doesn't even know what Thungi means by Heir?

2. By Snorri's definition of Heir, Snorri works as Durin's Heir, but not Thungi's Heir. Based on the quoted info we can see that Snorri went northward, helped establish a hold, taught quite a few apprentices, is on the path to figuring out the Consternation, and established an institution of learning about runes and materials. So if this was to choice to be only Durin's Heir it would have been far easier answer. YES! But Snorri doesn't have the same the similarities with Thungi that he has with Durin; which loops back around to his standards not matching Thungi's or Durin's.
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So I think point one is elaborating on the reasons that we ended up in this mess, but I'm not sure its a seperate issue to other reasons given.
That he can't match it due to the different expectations that are suggested or that he doesn't want it because he doesn't want to adapt his own expectations of what should be required. I can add a clarification in the doesn't want to compromise bit, however otherwise I think the reasons would fall into one or more of these other categories.
Dark as Silver said:
  • Snorri feels inadequate to the position of heir and thus cannot accept it:
    • Due to insufficient skill.
    • Due to being too politically divisive.
    • Due to having no clue what Thungni wants from him.
  • Snorri doesn't want the position of heir because:
    • He feels he cannot accept without compromising either the spirit of his ambitions or Thungni's spirit of allowing others to find the ideal path.
    • He's going heresy mode and rejecting this due to feeling Thungni let him down. Unlikely IC but I think thread opinion does bleed through.
      • No heir would be the most appropriate legacy to Thungni who never presented himself as more than the first of equals.
      • Thungni should have prepared him better (at all) if he actually wanted him to do this.
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2 doesn't seem relevant? Snorri might have been a better pick for Durins legacy, however the dudes known as the lost, that option will probably never be available and I don't think we turned down this specific offer because we'd be better suited for something that is an almost certain impossibility.

Or am I misunderstanding you?
 
in this episode of kill Hammer seven Six billion Khornate demons, Snorri takes the next step to royalty by rejecting ultimate temporal power.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
So I think point one is elaborating on the reasons that we ended up in this mess, but I'm not sure its a seperate issue to other reasons given.
That he can't match it due to the different expectations that are suggested or that he doesn't want it because he doesn't want to adapt his own expectations of what should be required. I can add a clarification in the doesn't want to compromise bit, however otherwise I think the reasons would fall into one or more of these other categories.

2 doesn't seem relevant? Snorri might have been a better pick for Durins legacy, however the dudes known as the lost, that option will probably never be available and I don't think we turned down this specific offer because we'd be better suited for something that is an almost certain impossibility.

Or am I misunderstanding you?
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Naah, looking at what you wrote I can see how you'd say point 1 is already represented. I read "Due to having no clue what Thungni wants from him." and it felt too vague. Adding "as Heir" to the end would sum up my point, but you could add "as Heir" to to the other points too... meh just forget it if you didn't think you need to change it.

As for point 2 that was more something that came about as a part of an ever expanding part of point 1. And it feels like a point that would be part of Snorri's thoughts even if it wouldn't be a deciding factor. Feel free to ignore it.

I'll be honest that post was me organizing my thoughts on those points more than anything, and throwing them out there to see if you felt they would contribute to your list at all.
 
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So if the idea is to leave behind the super controversial vote, it may be better to stop relitigating it.

Whatever one thinks about the outcome of the vote, there is at this point no need for further arguments about whether the better option won/lost.
 
If you wish to move on, suggest a new topic, don't tell people who are politely discussing and reflecting to stop talking.

I'm pretty sure most people who are upset about the vote aren't actively watching the thread and are waiting for soulcake posts.
 
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