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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Darkwood2027 said:
I just had a thought:

What if the Rune limit is due to the energy draw rate of magic exceeding what can be pushed out through the Runed item, thus causing the energy to curdle into dhar and cause the object to explode (Please correct me if something else happens when you put too many runes on something)
If this would be the case, then Adamant's trait of actively pushing away all magic energy would cause it to have a higher 'vent rate' than other materials, which is why is can be used to allow high draw rate Runes like the Lonely Runes.
Thungni's hammer appears to be actively converting and venting energy in the form of Deep Magic (Presumably via the function of Thungni's Master Rune of Grounding)

Theory (In desperate need of testing): A Rune Item that has a 'vent' Rune that gets rid of excess Magic Energy so that the Item doesn't explode may be able to withstand more runes
Hypothesis: Deep magic may be 'gentler' on a Rune Item's frame, thus allowing it to withstand more Runes.
Hypothesis: A Rune that converts loose Magic Energy into a particular kind of Magic Energy (Single Wind or Deep Magic, irrelevant which) may increase a Rune Item's tolerance for Runes.

Honestly I'm just aiming for: "+1 Slot, Takes 1 Slot" with this. But breaking even would still be a massive victory against the Rule of Three.
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As far as explode or if something else happens. its explode but also a lot of other strange alternate possibilities.

For your theory:
I'm stuck somewhere between "your Dhar theory is a new conceptualisation for the widely used theory of strain in the material", with some interesting differences that might be able to be tested. And "Runes (probably) convert energy into a shared non aspected form of magic, so the Dhar conversion would occur at the input of the rune which would probably create a predictable form of the explosion." so in that case since we the lack of predictability its probably wrong.
Furthermore we could probably get around making Dhar by using runes that are highly dependent on only one wind such as the Rune of Flame. While its possible nobody tested it, I'd be surprised if nobody tried "What if I put three copies of the same rune on an object?"

I think you're dragging in a couple of unspoken assumptions like the rate magic is pushed out/through the runed item. Theres no conservation of magic, its consumed in its use. If each individual rune absorbed winds faster than they used them then we'd expect this style of failure to occur to all runed items regardless of how many runes they have as each rune can absorb and consume magic independently, it would simply be a varying timeframe.
Secondly discussing the vent rate... if the cause is compounding dhar in the material object then wouldn't we expect we can change the vent rate or tolerance of dhar by changing the form of the object? Making it larger to soak up more or a larger surface area to vent more? This goes against some implicit follow ons from the rule of form.
Leolu said:
I'll just throw my tinfoil theory into the ring. I suspect the reason the Hammer works was revealed in the final trials. They make it pretty clear the combo Dawi can be produced by multiple sets of runes, and it'll have different effects while still being the Dawi combo. I think the hammer manages to act as two combos by being a Palindrome. Except the runes being in a different order when read backwards still warps the effect even if it comes out to the 'same' combo.
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I don't see how that explains there can be more than 3 runes.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I think you're dragging in a couple of unspoken assumptions like the rate magic is pushed out/through the runed item. Theres no conservation of magic, its consumed in its use. If each individual rune absorbed winds faster than they used them then we'd expect this style of failure to occur to all runed items regardless of how many runes they have as each rune can absorb and consume magic independently, it would simply be a varying timeframe.
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My evidence for including this assumption is as follows: Rune Items eventually stop working as the rune burns out.
I theorize this effect triggers in much the same manner as electricity heating up and slowly degrading a copper wire as it is used. Just as a copper wire does not achieve a perfect ratio of input power to output power (as some is lost to heat), my presumption is that most runes end up drawing slightly more power than they use, with the excess slowly building up in the material until it hits a critical point and mars the Rune, thus making it cease like a shorted wire.
This theory does presume that most if not all Runes draw more energy than they use. With most skill-based results amounting to pushing the use rate up and the draw rate down until they nearly break even.

Dark as Silver said:
Secondly discussing the vent rate... if the cause is compounding dhar in the material object then wouldn't we expect we can change the vent rate or tolerance of dhar by changing the form of the object? Making it larger to soak up more or a larger surface area to vent more? This goes against some implicit follow ons from the rule of form.
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Counterpoint of 'Weakest Link Breaks', I do not believe the size of the object should matter, as all energy would be clustered around the Runes themselves as they draw energy to produce their effects, and the runes (as far as I can tell, based on descriptions) seem to require being close together in order to function, never more than a few inches apart.

That being said, this is all theory-work. I can't see what the magic's doing any more than the dwarfs can. I'm just hoping that if I find a novel enough approach I can wrangle some actual data out of it.

EDIT (Thought of this point after hitting post):
Dark as Silver said:
Furthermore we could probably get around making Dhar by using runes that are highly dependent on only one wind such as the Rune of Flame. While its possible nobody tested it, I'd be surprised if nobody tried "What if I put three copies of the same rune on an object?"
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A rune only using one Wind wouldn't necessarily stop it from grabbing any Wind that comes by. And would probably force them all together to try and make them burn anyway, being a mono-task device not designed to account for something its maker doesn't know exists.
 
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Darkwood2027 said:
My evidence for including this assumption is as follows: Rune Items eventually stop working as the rune burns out.
I theorize this effect triggers in much the same manner as electricity heating up and slowly degrading a copper wire as it is used. Just as a copper wire does not achieve a perfect ratio of input power to output power (as some is lost to heat), my presumption is that most runes end up drawing slightly more power than they use, with the excess slowly building up in the material until it hits a critical point and mars the Rune, thus making it cease like a shorted wire.
This theory does presume that most if not all Runes draw more energy than they use. With most skill-based results amounting to pushing the use rate up and the draw rate down until they nearly break even.



Counterpoint of 'Weakest Link Breaks', I do not believe the size of the object should matter, as all energy would be clustered around the Runes themselves as they draw energy to produce their effects, and the runes (as far as I can tell, based on descriptions) seem to require being close together in order to function, never more than a few inches apart.

That being said, this is all theory-work. I can't see what the magic's doing any more than the dwarfs can. I'm just hoping that if I find a novel enough approach I can wrangle some actual data out of it.

EDIT (Thought of this point after hitting post):


A rune only using one Wind wouldn't necessarily stop it from grabbing any Wind that comes by. And would probably force them all together to try and make them burn anyway, being a mono-task device not designed to account for something its maker doesn't know exists.
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I know this all theory work,
Dark as Silver said:
some interesting differences that might be able to be tested.
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however I'm critiquing the theory so that we can hopefully identify problems and improvements

Rune items stop working... but they do not explode. Thats pretty different behaviour.

I suspect Runes generally draw less power than they use because they often have recharge times or spend long periods of time inactive (You turn off the rune of flame on your axe when you hang it up for the night incase it sets fire to something in your house).

The energy would be clustered around the runes, however on a larger object the runes wouldn't be clustered around each other, giving them more space between their energy field things interact. I don't think anyone knows a reason that runes have to be close together, just usually we're working on objects small enough like a ring or hammer that theres no way to put significant distance between them.

Based on the makerstrike combo, runes generally do no pull all the winds of magic, and doing so actually improves their longevity. This suggests A) that drawing all the winds isn't contributing to a dhar build up. B) That normal runes only draw relevant winds
soulcake said:
- Combo, Makerstrike +:[Master Rune of Conduction (Elder Magma Dragon's Blood), Rune of Smednir (Pure Gromril), Rune of Thungni (Adamant)] [The weapon sends blows that sunder armour and, if charged for long enough, can melt even Gromril, the user can strike the earth and either call forth a small crack in the earth that spews lava or send out a wave of mystic flame that burns their foes. The tool follows the bearer's will, guides their blows so that imperfections are removed entirely and their work endures for as long as possible. Runes struck with this hammer draw from the ambient magic of the world in its totality, lasting far longer and recharging more quickly than standard.]
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Dark as Silver said:
I know this all theory work, however I'm critiquing the theory so that we can hopefully identify problems and improvements
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(Thumbs up of understanding)

Dark as Silver said:
Rune items stop working... but they do not explode. Thats pretty different behaviour.
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Clarification: I did not intend to imply that Rune items explode when the runes burn out, only when too many Runes are imprinted during the Runesmithing process. My intended analogy was that a burnt out rune may 'melt' after a fashion, a slow degradation of form, hence the copper wire metaphor. I apologize for this miscommunication.

Dark as Silver said:
I suspect Runes generally draw less power than they use because they often have recharge times or spend long periods of time inactive (You turn off the rune of flame on your axe when you hang it up for the night incase it sets fire to something in your house).
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Tangent: I forgot capacitors were a thing. I keep thinking of Runes like magic power cables, where not having enough fuel means the light bulb flickers in an annoying fashion. Hence my presumption that Runes had to draw more power than they used.

Dark as Silver said:
Based on the makerstrike combo, runes generally do no pull all the winds of magic, and doing so actually improves their longevity. This suggests A) that drawing all the winds isn't contributing to a dhar build up. B) That normal runes only draw relevant winds
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Well that's kind of a hole in my dhar overload theory then...and seemingly the start of a pattern, where runes that manipulate the Winds of Magic in more advanced ways tend to last longer.

To my understanding, Runes appear to draw in Winds appropriate to the materials used to create them, eg Magma Dragon Blood gives heavy Fire Magic, but also some Beast Magic because its a big monster. I would presume the Rune of Conduction doesn't need the Beast Wind, hence the buildup. But if Makerstrike increases the efficiency by drawing in all the winds then...
Possibilities/Implications: (Take or combine in any order. Implications written with the presumption that the Dhar theory is at least partially accurate.)
Possibility 1: The act of holding on to all the winds might somehow be preventing them from merging.
Possibility 2: The Makerstrike Combo may be creating High magic to fuel the rune. Combining Thungni's Ancestor domain of Magic with Smednir's domain of refinement through the lens of the Rune of Conduction's 'build-up energy and transfer to target' mechanism.
Possibility 3: The Runes might not care what wind you feed them, but can normally only draw upon certain winds related to their materials.
Any experiment ideas on how to test any of this for accuracy?
 
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Darkwood2027 said:
(Thumbs up of understanding)


Clarification: I did not intend to imply that Rune items explode when the runes burn out, only when too many Runes are imprinted during the Runesmithing process. My intended analogy was that a burnt out rune may 'melt' after a fashion, a slow degradation of form, hence the copper wire metaphor. I apologize for this miscommunication.


Tangent: I forgot capacitors were a thing. I keep thinking of Runes like magic power cables, where not having enough fuel means the light bulb flickers in an annoying fashion. Hence my presumption that Runes had to draw more power than they used.


Well that's kind of a hole in my dhar overload theory then...and seemingly the start of a pattern, where runes that manipulate the Winds of Magic in more advanced ways tend to last longer.

To my understanding, Runes appear to draw in Winds appropriate to the materials used to create them, eg Magma Dragon Blood gives heavy Fire Magic, but also some Beast Magic because its a big monster. I would presume the Rune of Conduction doesn't need the Beast Wind, hence the buildup. But if Makerstrike increases the efficiency by drawing in all the winds then...
Possibilities/Implications: (Take or combine in any order. Implications written with the presumption that the Dhar theory is at least partially accurate.)
Possibility 1: The act of holding on to all the winds is somehow preventing them from merging.
Possibility 2: The Makerstrike Combo is creating High magic to fuel the rune. Combining Thungni's Ancestor domain of Magic with Smednir's domain of refinement through the lens of the Rune of Conduction's 'build-up energy and transfer to target' mechanism.
Possibility 3: The Runes genuinely don't care what wind you feed them. (Note: This does maintain the line of reasoning that certain winds are more efficent at certain tasks, and the resources imput determine the base Winds drawn, thus forming the observed material 'requirement' pattern.)
Any experiment ideas on how to test any of this for accuracy?
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The difference between burning out over time and exploding due to the rule of three I think is a pretty significant difference which indicates that they aren't actually reflections of the same process.

I think you've put the cart before the horse concerning reagents, rune ingredients are optional.
Instead I think we should say Runes are enhanced by materials that are appropriate to the winds they already use.
However otherwise I do agree.

One of the issues with testing is that we're pretty limited, I reckon creating a magically isolated box and putting an exhausted rune of fire axe inside is something that Snorri is capable of doing to test. And then repeating that experiment but with different sources of the winds inside the box. However its something that doesn't fit inside the concepts of Research actions and to get the answers we'd probably have to actually @ soulcake.
My guess for that experiment would be that it refuels at 70-80% of its normal recharge speed in an Ashqy rich environment and like 5-10% for other winds. So it recharges from all winds but most efficiently from ones that are appropriate to the rune.
An additional experiment would probably be can we observe any winds at all in Adamant items that have been runed for a long time such as BA, as Adamant naturally repels the winds (from entering) leakage from the runes is the most likely way we could see it getting inside.
Unfortunately I can't see a test for the Dhar theory that we could use a request action on to test.

I personally dislike discords for quests on the principle that it excludes people who are only following the thread, however undeniably it may be a faster way to get answers.

soulcake said:
The roadblock with Adamant? Fizzles away as direct proof of your theory is there plain as day. You learn that the metal, for all that it glows so brightly with Aqshy, Chamon and Hysh, is itself as inert as obsidian. For all the the Winds attempt to enter, to suffuse the metal as surely as Chamon does Gromril, they cannot. Something stops them, and only through the application of Runecraft, though you cannot actually see the Winds beyond the point that they enter the Rune, does any amount of magic suffuse the metal. Now more than ever you know for certain that magic required, and with the Rune you have a strong idea about how it needs to be applied.

After all, if Adamant was the absence of the Winds in metal, then that may well have been why it takes to Runes so well. Simply put, you believe that Adamant takes to Runes so well is because the energy of Runecraft, demonstrably the Winds yet almost certainly changed in some fashion, flows through Adamant uncontested. Where even Gromril is touched by Chamon, the same cannot be said for Adamant, and with nothing to compete against the expression of Runecraft can simply exert itself all the more perfectly.
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So following your theory, what would happen if we inscribed a rune in a place without the winds of magic? Would it not work, would it work once reintroduced to magic, or would it explode when reintroduced to magic? All outcomes here are interesting, but I think number 2 would be most useful to us
 
rocketroland999 said:
So following your theory, what would happen if we inscribed a rune in a place without the winds of magic? Would it not work, would it work once reintroduced to magic, or would it explode when reintroduced to magic? All outcomes here are interesting, but I think number 2 would be most useful to us
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I suspect scribing a rune requires a base presence of the Winds of Magic to work, otherwise it's just an etching. However, the use of an item like Thungni's hammer, which carries is own magic with it, may allow that requirement to be circumvented. And once exposed to the Winds again the item would function normally (Explosion optional, should the item have too much Draw with insufficient wind management, like from having too many Runes.)
 
85 ratings notifications overnight, glad you're caught up @Talon TigerDino
rocketroland999 said:
So following your theory, what would happen if we inscribed a rune in a place without the winds of magic? Would it not work, would it work once reintroduced to magic, or would it explode when reintroduced to magic? All outcomes here are interesting, but I think number 2 would be most useful to us
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Runes aren't made of magic, they're little machine that turn winds into desired effects.
A rune made in a wind absent environment would be a normal rune however lacking the reserve of power they're usually created with.

If it turns out that the little machines are made of wind twisted up into shape then it would fail as Darkwood2027 described, however I consider this an unlikely scenario as rune secrets probably would have been stolen if they could be observed by species with natural windsight.
What a rune actually is, is part of the greater Durin's Consternation, however my favourite theory at the moment is that they're portals to the Glittering Realm, based on the SB update
soulcake said:
One looks where it not ought to have and is blinded by the Glittering One's work for its trouble.
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This is not a 100% certain reading, if Snorri was poetically being described as the Glittering One at one point this could just be innate anti magic of runes affecting a creature of pure magic.

I'd caution about picking interpretations based on whats best for us, unless it comes time to follow through in the game, however while theorising we should keep our minds open.
I think theory 2 is a little incorrect, as saying high magic forces this into the Qhaysh framework and High magic has its own set of effects its not do all of the winds at super strength. Additionally Qhaysh is a specific blend of all winds in equal power, so I guess in this case we would see the makerstrike combo fail to work in limited winds where there isn't enough of a specific kind of wind or winds in order to make the Qhaysh blend.
However since before wind sight theories have existed that runes convert their actual sources of power into some undifferentiated rune power so that sits somewhere between 2 and 3. More akin to grounded magic than to High Magic.
All runes can work with any wind however with preferences, and the makerstrike combo provides additional conversion function to more effectively convert the non-prefered wind into rune power.
This resolves no.1 because the runes stop holding winds they need to be worried about merging. And behaves different to theory no.2 because it wouldn't require specific blends of power.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
Runes aren't made of magic, they're little machine that turn winds into desired effects.
A rune made in a wind absent environment would be a normal rune however lacking the reserve of power they're usually created with.
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If that were the case then crafting runes at an arcane fulcrum during a storm of magic wouldn't have mattered, we could have just made the runes then left them to charge there. The fact that the most common ancestor text we see when crafting is "power flows" also suggests that creating runes directly requires power for more than just charging.
 
thamuzz said:
If that were the case then crafting runes at an arcane fulcrum during a storm of magic wouldn't have mattered, we could have just made the runes then left them to charge there. The fact that the most common ancestor text we see when crafting is "power flows" also suggests that creating runes directly requires power for more than just charging.
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I don't have a good answer for the fulcrum, but does anyone have a good explanation for what did change?
Just it being a bigger machine might work for why its more powerful,? but wouldn't it also rely on consuming more winds to produce the effect of the size it does, partially works as an explaination as its more powerful when used with BA which is a deep magic pump, however that doesn't explain its higher base power or why it buffs BA. Is it actually just sitting on a larger reservoir of power left over from the storm,? possible but it creates the implication it might dwindle over the centuries which I'm not sure I believe.
It might need to move past the rune machine conceptualisation.

Power flows, could also be describing the behaviour of runes, power flows and the rune makes something happen with that power. It doesn't need to mean its describing the construction process.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I don't have a good answer for the fulcrum, but does anyone have a good explanation for what did change?
Just it being a bigger machine might work for why its more powerful,? but wouldn't it also rely on consuming more winds to produce the effect of the size it does, partially works as an explaination as its more powerful when used with BA which is a deep magic pump, however that doesn't explain its higher base power or why it buffs BA. Is it actually just sitting on a larger reservoir of power left over from the storm,? possible but it creates the implication it might dwindle over the centuries which I'm not sure I believe.
It might need to move past the rune machine conceptualisation.

Power flows, could also be describing the behaviour of runes, power flows and the rune makes something happen with that power. It doesn't need to mean its describing the construction process.
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We do know that the soul of a runesmith has veins to channel magic, that the magical characteristics of reagents used impacts the runes struck, and that wind elementals who got too close to the forging got sucked in. It seems pretty clear that magic is actually used in the process of creating runes.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Runes aren't made of magic, they're little machine that turn winds into desired effects.
A rune made in a wind absent environment would be a normal rune however lacking the reserve of power they're usually created with.
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Yeah, but if that's the case, then that's a very real lead on breaking the rule of three. One of the major problems we have with replicating the multiple runes of KKR (of which there are many) is that the process of making it (we think) requires having runes balance each other out even during their creation. If we have all the runes off until the very end of the process, we wouldn't need to worry about balancing them during the creation, and would just have to balance them while turning them on, which should be orders of magnitude easier
 
thamuzz said:
We do know that the soul of a runesmith has veins to channel magic, that the magical characteristics of reagents used impacts the runes struck, and that wind elementals who got too close to the forging got sucked in. It seems pretty clear that magic is actually used in the process of creating runes.
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How magic is used matters is the important thing in this question.
rocketroland999 said:
Yeah, but if that's the case, then that's a very real lead on breaking the rule of three. One of the major problems we have with replicating the multiple runes of KKR (of which there are many) is that the process of making it (we think) requires having runes balance each other out even during their creation. If we have all the runes off until the very end of the process, we wouldn't need to worry about balancing them during the creation, and would just have to balance them while turning them on, which should be orders of magnitude easier
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Eeeeeeehhhh.

So, maybe...
Assuming that A the balance theory is correct, B the reason any attempts to use this theory prior failed due to the presence of wind reservoirs inside runes during the smithing process, C that I'm correct about what happens when a rune is made in a magical vacuum. Then yes unless something else goes wrong.
I'm pretty sceptical about that, I really don't like the balance theory but I'm willing to try for the sake that its our most testable theory. However C is being actively disputed in the post above you.
I don't think we're getting closer to the answer, I think we're just building up a tower of increasingly unsupported speculation towards a maybe.

The balance theory was always assuming flows of magic cancelling out each other somehow while in functioning, this is a separate theory about the pools of magic in storage while under construction. While there could be a nice smooth transition between the two different domains, it feels to me theres a bit of a leap connecting the two of them.
 
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Oh yeah don't get me wrong, this is very much speculation and I'd like to at least test what happens in this case. If, and only if runes work when carved without any magic would this be even theoretically useful, and I'd doubt it would be useful at all even if it were true
 
It wasn't that I thought you weren't speculation, I just thought it was worth keeping in mind how many things we needed to assume for this speculation.

At the very least I think we're building a good stock of "Does Snorri know _____" questions for soulcake.
  1. Assuming a rune of fire as an example:
    1. How do runes recharge in a magical vacuum? Is it able to recharge from non magical sources.
    2. How do they recharge in monowind environments?
  2. What happens when a rune is created in a magical vacuum?
    1. If they are inert on creation, does Snorri know of any attempts to use this to create multi rune items?
  3. What does it look like magic is doing when a rune is created? ( in a non vacuum of course)
  4. Can Snorri ever see Dhar or any other wind leaking out of runes?
    1. Can Snorri see any wind inclusions that in the Adamant of BA, after centuries of use?
  5. Do runes have components which are visible to windsight but not mundane senses?
what else am I forgetting?
 
A rune made in a magicalless place must be nothing more than a scratch on a surface, because we know the rituals and Songs matters for a rune. But a magicalles place must work only with natural law by definition.
And in such and environment if i dance and sing but I make the same scratch that a non singing guy makes then there Is no difference to the scratch.

So either you can make runes stupidly easy without any magic around you (or in you like the gift).

Or you must be in a magical place to do it.

Given that all the world Is at least soffused with some magic this theory seems to work.

Making a rune in a magicless place would like tryng to drink water in a void.
Water Is not just air and rune are not just magic but in a void water eavorates and without magic you can noy build the machine that Is a rune
 
Franksson said:
A rune made in a magicalless place must be nothing more than a scratch on a surface, because we know the rituals and Songs matters for a rune. But a magicalles place must work only with natural law by definition.
And in such and environment if i dance and sing but I make the same scratch that a non singing guy makes then there Is no difference to the scratch.

So either you can make runes stupidly easy without any magic around you (or in you like the gift).

Or you must be in a magical place to do it.

Given that all the world Is at least soffused with some magic this theory seems to work.

Making a rune in a magicless place would like tryng to drink water in a void.
Water Is not just air and rune are not just magic but in a void water eavorates and without magic you can noy build the machine that Is a rune
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Dunno what you're including in the ritual, however the song at least does not matter, its a mnemonic to help Runesmiths remember the correct process.

Even if making a rune is an inherently magical process, I don't think Divine magic typically requires winds to be present, therefore a priest of Thungni is reasonably likely to not be doing a wind based form of magic in the creation process.
 
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_The_Bomb said:
I see this was a universal experience.
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Talon and Kinglugia are at least two of the people who like every post.
This was unusual in how much Talon fell behind to need to catch up this much, rather than any behaviour.
Actually, where is Kinglugia?
BungiONI's not a liker but thats another of the threads regulars whos conspicuously missing.
I hope everyones well, theres not a computer virus going around.
 
I do not know if it has been proposed before, but is it possible for us to construct an Aerie for the Branakroki on Khazagar for added defense? I imagine that the extra protection provided by flight-capable, magic seeing and wielding griffons would make it a worthwhile endeavour.

Granted, I do see it as possibly being rejected due to it putting them too close to a massive repository of runic knowledge. And though they are trusted allies to us and the Hold, many more from beyond would not like their presence so close to such knowledge.
 
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