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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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'Pioneering an entire field of study is going to be easier than achieving a single problem with a concrete goal and pathway, that will significantly help said study anyway' is honestly madness.
What the hell are you talking about? Yes making baby steps on a new problem is going to be easier than the final goal that all runesmiths have been working towards since Thungni taught his first apprentice.
Thats the whole reason people think Windsight will be a major step forward right? Because as far as we know no dwarf has ever had it before. If Windsight was a known solved problem we wouldn't be expecting that we can make significant steps from it. Hell, your entire statement is reversible,
'Pioneering an entire field of study (Windsight) is going to be easier than achieving a single problem with a concrete goal and pathway (Rune Metal), that will significantly help said study anyway' is honestly madness.
You're better than this Xeph. Think.
As for the eventual gating:
Get back to me when Rune metal and Akazit have hit walls take so much effort windsight is easier and I'll change my mind.
We ain't there yet.
 
We are quite possibly one step away from windsight. It is entirely possible that Snerra's new X-ray rune plus Meargh's eye would do it. And we want to research Meargh's eye anyway, since progress on some MatSci leads to gains in Akazit. So, like, why not do it? It's not even a major AP sink for us.
 
Er... I'm still in the middle of catching up since I just started reading this, but what would be an example of an 'odd' or 'esoteric' rune? How are they different from normal runes?
 
We are quite possibly one step away from windsight. It is entirely possible that Snerra's new X-ray rune plus Meargh's eye would do it. And we want to research Meargh's eye anyway, since progress on some MatSci leads to gains in Akazit. So, like, why not do it? It's not even a major AP sink for us.
We aren't one step away.
Bungie was just talking about runes that we don't have that he thinks if we get in the rune trade, we might be one step away. I assume, I don't remember any specific combo, so there might also be some pre req research? If we get that (and the combo works which we won't know until we attempt it) then we're one step away. As for being a major AP sink. How many actions do you think people want to invest? because I kinda expect the thread to go for the max of 5. Do the long term plans have free actions available we can fit this into?
We are however guaranteed that we can start and begin making progress on Rune Metal and Akazit, because those actions are available and unlocked.
Er... I'm still in the middle of catching up since I just started reading this, but what would be an example of an 'odd' or 'esoteric' rune? How are they different from normal runes?
They're just runes that are pretty rare or scarcely used, they aren't a specific category the same way armour or weapon runes are and it is pretty hard to tell often.
 
Hey so to break the tension and because it has the least number of Runes here have some Structural Runes:

Rune of Roots: "Roots" of stone, wood, or whatever other material the building is constructed with project out of the building's bottom into the relative ground, anchoring it solidly into the earth.
Master Rune of Sympathy: An esoteric Rune. The building and the builder are one, connected and placed together. So long as the building stands, they who crafted it remains mighty indeed, especially if faced within that place of power they have constructed. Vice versa is also true: if the craftsman stands, so too the crafted. But if one should be destroyed, the other will lose much of their power.
Rune of Recuperation: The body's natural healing process is sped up to a noticeable if not instant pace, allowing healers to focus on those wounds that will not heal one way or the other rather than having to also deal with minor but painful wounds like a non-lethal cut.

"Supposedly used by the legendary Runelord Dargaza of the mythical Karak Zorn to craft her mighty fortress during the Time of the Ancestors. I am inclined to believe the stories in this case however, since I met her and all."
-Leandre Agua


#Rune-Ideas
 
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...what's an example of one?
Its really just something we eyeball and @ soulcake if needed.
I think Gronti's and MWaking is one that was specifically asked about and Confirmed. MPurification is almost certainly one. Stuff like Rune of Wolfs Peace probably is just looking at the detailed rune list. The ancestor runes are certainly odd, but might be too common to be Odd. The prosphetic runes like MPurification are probably considered.
It isn't something that often comes up in story if you're reading through.
 
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Its really just something we eyeball and @ soulcake if needed.
I think Gronti's and MWaking is one that was specifically asked about and Confirmed. MPurification is almost certainly one. Stuff like Rune of Wolfs Peace probably is just looking at the detailed rune list.
It isn't something that often comes up in story if you're reading through.

Yeah, I'm just trying to gauge how much use Snorri's mastered specialty sees.

Also, is savant higher than mastered and exceptional? Nevermind.
 
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Yeah, I'm just trying to gauge how much use Snorri's mastered specialty sees.
We don't actually know if those do anything mechanical or are just fluff.
I don't think we really ever plan around them, otherwise we'd have made a lot more Talismans and War machines rather than armour and banners.
Given that the two epic Gronti's Snorri has made came out of general actions rather than being specific designs, I think you should probably view this as Snorri's more likely to solve a problem with a unusual solution rather than a slightly more polished orthodox design.

E: Regarding if theres a mechanical effect, Talismans have historically overperformed the effort investment and Siege engines have underperformed which makes it difficult to estimate, especially since these aren't the higher level speciality so its a more minor effect if there is one.
 
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When it comes to materials research, I wonder if/when we'll reach the point where we can try hiring an elven alchemist to do their own analysis and share the results with us. Elven magic users seem willing to work for both money and exposure to interesting topics, so it may be something we can arrange.

This shouldn't breach any of our own secrecy rules.

Now, the stretch goal may be to try to recruit a priest of Vaul, as they seem to take commissions, but I'm not sure they'd be interested enough in materials analysis. They'd probably be very interested in trying to enchant gromril and adamant, but I suspect that we'd balk at that, even though they're not technically secrets of runecraft.

We don't actually know if those do anything mechanical or are just fluff.
I don't think we really ever plan around them, otherwise we'd have made a lot more Talismans and War machines rather than armour and banners.
Given that the two epic Gronti's Snorri has made came out of general actions rather than being specific designs, I think you should probably view this as Snorri's more likely to solve a problem with a unusual solution rather than a slightly more polished orthodox design.

I think relevant specialties discount the number of actions to understand a Master Rune.
 
I think relevant specialties discount the number of actions to understand a Master Rune.
Yes good point, although we've never completed understanding :p I was only thinking about the impacts on item quality.

Brana are also a decent choice if not elves. After all thats been Snorri's go to solution so far for when he needs to know what the Winds are doing. Finding one interested in being more of a full time research partner could also be helpful and faster than finding an elf.
 
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Brana are also a decent choice if not elves. After all thats been Snorri's go to solution so far for when he needs to know what the Winds are doing. Finding one interested in being more of a full time research partner could also be helpful and faster than finding an elf.

Brana have a number problems with alchemy though

1) No opposable thumbs so it's very hard to use alchemical tools
2) No tradition of tool use or crafting
3) Restricted set of Winds they can manipulate, while alchemical reagents can have absorbed any combination of Winds.
4) No or much lower starting knowledge base

Now, getting a Brana in for their own unique insight alongside an elven alchemist might be a very interesting idea. Long term, having Elves, Brana, and the Men of Albion involved in alchemy research could be very interesting.

It partially depends on whether long term dwarven alchemy is considered a runesmith exclusive secret, or whether like rune assisted smelting it's seen as something that non-runesmiths can do using runic tools somewhere in the process.
 
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Brana have a umber problems with alchemy though

1) No opposable thumbs so it's very hard to use alchemical tools
2) No tradition of tool use or crafting
3) Restricted set of Winds they can manipulate, while alchemical reagents can have absorbed any combination of Winds.
4) No or much lower starting knowledge base

Now, getting a Brana in for their own unique insight alongside an elven alchemist might be a very interesting idea. Long term, having Elves, Brana, and the Men of Albion involved in alchemy research could be very interesting.

It partially depends on whether dwarven alchemy is considered a runesmith exclusive secret, or whether like rune assisted smelting it's seen as something that non-runesmiths can do using runic tools somewhere in the process.
Reminder that alchemy as field doesn't exist. These aren't problems that are present yet.
1) There are no alchemical tools and when Snorri was dreaming of production lines, Brana are just as capable of planning them out and understanding the process. And if they're involved from the start, we'd just try and design tools that are useable by a Griffon.
2) A tradition of tool use is a odd concept, intelligent beings can adapt to new technologies without relying on genetic history of tool use and they do use armours at least. On a more general level, Ravens and other birds are known to use tools so its possible that even non Brana Griffon have historically used tools.
3) We don't necessarily want them to manipulate winds as our end goal should be an automated processes, we want them for their eyes primarily. And Dwarves can't manipulate any winds so still a big step up.
4) Significantly higher starting knowledge base in how winds behave and they can presumably also learn to read the book Snorri has. As a specialist they have what we want them for and as a generalist, they can pick it up, Snorri's knowledge base isn't high either.

And yeah theres a lot up in the air that we can't see how it will fall out, however having outsiders involved from the beginning makes it far less likely that all of the field becomes a specialised subset of Runesmithing rather than a more general profession with heavy rune usage.

E: Just realised I used both spellings of Gryphon lol, Warhammer fantasy usually uses Griffon right?
 
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Reminder that alchemy as field doesn't exist. These aren't problems that are present yet.
1) There are no alchemical tools and when Snorri was dreaming of production lines, Brana are just as capable of planning them out and understanding the process. And if they're involved from the start, we'd just try and design tools that are useable by a Griffon.
2) A tradition of tool use is a odd concept, intelligent beings can adapt to new technologies without relying on genetic history of tool use and they do use armours at least. On a more general level, Ravens and other birds are known to use tools so its possible that even non Brana Griffon have historically used tools.
3) We don't necessarily want them to manipulate winds as our end goal should be an automated processes, we want them for their eyes primarily. And Dwarves can't manipulate any winds so still a big step up.
4) Significantly higher starting knowledge base in how winds behave and they can presumably also learn to read the book Snorri has. As a specialist they have what we want them for and as a generalist, they can pick it up, Snorri's knowledge base isn't high either.

And yeah theres a lot up in the air that we can't see how it will fall out, however having outsiders involved from the beginning makes it far less likely that all of the field becomes a specialised subset of Runesmithing rather than a more general profession with heavy rune usage.

E: Just realised I used both spellings of Gryphon lol, Warhammer fantasy usually uses Griffon right?

As I understand it, Alchemy as a field does exist. We have books written by elves about it. Elven mages very likely use alchemy to make Ithilmar. Valayan brewing may also be a form of alchemy that they don't realise they're doing. We're trying to create our own version of an existing quasi-magical practice. This means that:
1) Alchemical tools do exist. They're the tools that the elves use to perform alchemy, as it's probably not something they can do with your bare hands.
2) There are birds that use tools, but it's not as culturally natural to Brana as to elves and dwarves, from what we've seen
3) They may be a big step up, but people who already know how to perform alchemy is a bigger one.
4) They know more about how the Winds behave while they're Winds. They may or may not know how Winds transform and are transformed by their absorption by physical matter.
 
As I understand it, Alchemy as a field does exist. We have books written by elves about it. Elven mages very likely use alchemy to make Ithilmar. Valayan brewing may also be a form of alchemy that they don't realise they're doing. We're trying to create our own version of an existing quasi-magical practice. This means that:
1) Alchemical tools do exist. They're the tools that the elves use to perform alchemy, as it's probably not something they can do with your bare hands.
2) There are birds that use tools, but it's not as culturally natural to Brana as to elves and dwarves, from what we've seen
3) They may be a big step up, but people who already know how to perform alchemy is a bigger one.
4) They know more about how the Winds behave while they're Winds. They may or may not know how Winds transform and are transformed by their absorption by physical matter.
Sorry I was imprecise in my previous comment.
What I meant was; Akazit as a field does not exist and due to difference in being Rune and natural phenomena derived rather that Gold wind derived its likely to deviate from Gold Wind in significant ways. For example the two materials we think of Hearthstones and Donwut are Asqy and the lightning wind derived.
Re birds using tools.
A tradition of tool use is a odd concept, intelligent beings can adapt to new technologies without relying on genetic history of tool use and they do use armours at least.
You ignored half the comment.
And regarding 4, Snorri doesn't know that either, so they aren't slowing him down at all.
I think the others should be clarified by the difference between Alchemy and whatever Akazit turns out to be.
 
Sorry I was imprecise in my previous comment.
What I meant was; Akazit as a field does not exist and due to difference in being Rune and natural phenomena derived rather that Gold wind derived its likely to deviate from Gold Wind in significant ways. For example the two materials we think of Hearthstones and Donwut are Asqy and the lightning wind derived.
Re birds using tools.

Elven Alchemy is not an inherently Chamon based activity. Alchemy is making use of and perhaps making materials that have absorbed and so have transformed by/transform those Winds. You can do that without channeling the Winds yourself, using processes that manipulate the physical matter to indirectly manipulate the magic. Regular alchemy is controlled chemical reaction/physical manipulation -> controlled change in magcval properties.

What Chamon allows you to do is control the physical matter to get the result you want, but with sufficient control of the physical/chemical reactions you could do that any Chamon being involved. Thaumaturgical alchemy is Chamon to direct reaction -> controlled chemical reaction/physical manipulation -> controlled change in magcval properties.

Similarly, it's much easier to saturate and so transform a material with a specific Wind or combination of Winds if you can just make the Winds flow through them as you want, but you can do the same thing less efficiently using other phenomena that attract or concentrate the Winds in the presence of a material.

A dwarf brewer using ingredients that have been modified by the Winds to produce an effect that wouldn't normally be possible is performing alchemy, under the elven definition, as I understand it. As is a devotee of Smednir purifying gromril the conventional way.
 
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#Rune-Ideas


Troglodytic Rivers: Future Run- oh its Talismanic. Im not accepting any more talismanic Runes for the foreseeable future. Is armour alright?
Bronze: Future Rune, also isn't the big thing copper plating a hull? Not bronze? I assume this is a ship/nautical-themed Rune like the others. I may add a different side effect on top to differentiate it tho.
Undertow: Is this being done offensively or defensively. I think its also an armour Rune, but could be wrong?

Brana: Can't use that.
Flocking: improved movement and coordination while in a group? Is this a banner rune?
Cloud: I don't know what kind of Rune this is, but the effect is okay. Assuming it isn't talismanic.


Really liked this. Thank you :^)

Flocking is a Banner Rune yes.

Cloud I was envisioning as differing uses depending on the object.

So a Hammer Cloud Rune would be more alligned with creation, allowing building of tangible cloud of varying permanence/impernance, usable to make constructs of cloud, such as barriers or platforms etc either as defenses, or obstacles to slow foes charges, means of crossing hazardous terrain such as water, swamps, ice etc, mid air platforms for Dawi to double jump from or Brana to Roost on/inside, roofing/overhangs to shelter from weather etc.

Differing effects can be imbued into cloud constructs made by the hammer at the cost of permanence, such as lightning, ice, ash etc for trap making, combat effects and exotic defenses.

A Shield with the Cloud Rune would be much more Defensive in nature, with the Defensive Clouds either obscuring foes senses via dark clouds, airborne particulates, flashes of lightning that strobe and thunder that deafens, all reducing accuracy of enemies and creating disorder. The other function is providing a mobile Dome Barrier of swirling Clouds and Winds that follows the bearer of the Shield and any close comrades fighting together, deflecting all missiles, weakening enemy blows and channeling cold and chill to slow and weaken enemies.
 
[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, MTriage

Changing vote
 
Bungie was just talking about runes that we don't have that he thinks if we get in the rune trade, we might be one step away. I assume, I don't remember any specific combo, so there might also be some pre req research? If we get that (and the combo works which we won't know until we attempt it) then we're one step away. As for being a major AP sink. How many actions do you think people want to invest? because I kinda expect the thread to go for the max of 5. Do the long term plans have free actions available we can fit this into?
We are however guaranteed that we can start and begin making progress on Rune Metal and Akazit, because those actions are available and unlocked.
I think all we need to get a prototype (though probably a very basic or crude prototype), is Rune of Forged Eye + Meargh Eye Reagent.

That's it. Slap those two things together.

Master Rune of Eagle Eyed + Perception + Forged Eye is just a preference rather than the requirement you apparently thought it was.

If a research line shows up that's for studying Windsight, then all my long term planning literally goes up in flames and stops mattering. And I'm honestly fine with that because I think Windsight is that important.

Personally, I figure a couple of things could happen once we research Fimir Eyes, the crux of this.

1) It does not generate a research path for Windsight. In this case we'll need to design and build a Forged Eye prosthesis, and if the only runes we have on hand are Forged Eye then so be it - give it a whirl with what we have. This is what I think is most likely, and the simple fact of the matter is that working around this one off object leaves room for other projects like Akazit to be progressed.

2) It does generate a research path for Windsight. In this case most of our actions are going to go towards it and I'd love to do that. It might proc progress in Akazit or other fields like Rune Metal as we progress. There's a few projects like Chain 3b I'd want to get done up around it, but those are easy to complete with a single action and some favor spending.

3) It does generate a research path for Windsight and it pops out a prototype prosthesis. In this case its largely the same as number two, I just figure this specific permutation is the most unlikely option.
 
Elven Alchemy is not an inherently Chamon based activity.
Is Elven Alchemy different from the Alchemy Teclis taught the Gold College?
I think all we need to get a prototype (though probably a very basic or crude prototype), is Rune of Forged Eye + Meargh Eye Reagent.
Meargh eye helps, but I thought there was a bit of a more sophisticated plan.
Do you think using Elder Magma Wyrm Eye on the Forged Eye would be enough to give Fire or Heat vision (Seeing not shooting beams)? I think we're asking a lot of a single reagent to grant a whole new sense. Especially when we have two empty rune slots to give that altered meaning. I don't have the WoG post on me atm but the reagent is the least important factor creating items after the runes, the combo, the effort put in.
Well, I've got no objections to researching it, I'm certain we'll be able to use to it somewhere even if it can't create the windsight eye, but I guess that means we're at least one step away from attempting it.

And if we do have a research tree to complete after researching it then I'll consider myself completely validated that its better to just start on other trees rather than hope for that to make them slightly easier. Win win.
 
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Is Elven Alchemy different from the Alchemy Teclis taught the Gold College?

Meargh eye helps, but I thought there was a bit of a more sophisticated plan.
Do you think using Elder Magma Wyrm Eye on the Forged Eye would be enough to give Fire or Heat vision (Seeing not shooting beams)? I think we're asking a lot of a single reagent to grant a whole new sense. Especially when we have two empty rune slots to give that altered meaning. I don't have the WoG post on me atm but the reagent is the least important factor creating items after the runes, the combo, the effort put in.
Well, I've got no objections to researching it, I'm certain we'll be able to use to it somewhere even if it can't create the windsight eye, but I guess that means we're at least one step away from attempting it.

And if we do have a research tree to complete after researching it then I'll consider myself completely validated that its better to just start on other trees rather than hope for that to make them slightly easier. Win win.
No I wouldn't and comparing the two is kinda ridiculous. The comparison doesn't hold water because you are creating this speculated property of Dragon Eyes, as if we don't know from in quest what the general idea of Fimir Eyes can do. Also this comparison attempt doesn't hold water because there's another important WoG here: When you use a reagent on a rune that is different from its normal reagent, you are in the end creating an entirely new rune. The rune we create by putting Forged Eye and Meargh Eyes together may be very crude or flawed, but it remains as our best lead in a situation where a research chain doesn't show up. And this rune is all I actually want.

If in a situation where we have research paths for Akazit and Rune Metal and Windsight all available to us and you want to prioritize Akazit and Rune Metal over Windsight, sure. I don't understand why you would want to, I think its a silly way to prioritize things. But, however we prioritize things I want to get Akazit done alongside Windsight anyway and Akazit is the reagent part of Durin's Consternation since it will have to explore why reagents interact with runes in the ways they do.
 
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[Non Canon] Project Prometheus, The First Given Gift, x2 +15 to a Roll.
The First Given Gift

This is an imaginary story...
aren't they all?


???? IC

The snow crunches, a constant staccato beat, under the greaves of Barak Azamar. Each thud grinds the soft silken crystal together, compressing it, but the heat of the magic coursing through it is too much for any snow or ice to stick to the hard adamant. Whatever tries sloughs off as a constant stream of water, dirty with mud and grass and Ancestors only know what else in this place, thick as it is with the evil magic of Chaos and the taint of their wicked ways. Daemon blood stains the ground hither, thither, and yon, which is either very good or very bad or very complicated. Plenty of things that want to kill daemons are in the good graces of your people, but plenty more are not and plenty more are quite plainly evil. So you are forced to consider the shattered trees, the burning grass, the shattered rocks and even more worryingly those cut right through.

On the one hand, leaving the enemy to kill each other may or may not be wise but it certainly isn't dishonorable especially if you can truthfully claim that you are just waiting to pick off the weakened victor, assuming there is, in fact, a victor to pick off: it's hardly unknown for Chaos to burn itself out fighting itself. Be embarrassing at best though if it's an elf of whatever sort or an ogre or one of the fay hunting them down, who wants to let them be right that they're doing more to protect the world than you? And it'd be pretty damn shameful, dishonorable even, if it's a Warrior Priest or a Grail Knight or a Diestro or something. Can't let the youngins do more for the world, can you?

Bah.

It will be good to get some exercise in any case. Not that the Daemons are any great challenge these days, not the way they were when you were a real Beardling, so weedy and cowardly they are...

Mind made up you heft your hammer over your shoulder and race onwards, following the literal trail of destruction that whoever has been fighting has left behind as well as your sniffer which can catch blood and oddly familiar stonebread on the horizon. Whatever turns out to be ripping into the Neverborn, you'll have to give them this: they fight pretty damn well and if the splattered red liquid that's not daemon's blood is anything to go by, they can take a punch better than a beardling. The quick jaunt swiftly brings you to a clearing in the trees, where a barechested figure covered in a thick cloak of what looks like sea silk brandishes a mace covered in several spikes towards a hissing Keeper of Secrets, shield of rawhide and wood in the other hand. Several other, lesser, daemons mill about the place, the locusts, waiting for their chance to strike.

Judging by the fact you can see but not comprehend, for lack of a better word, the mortal's face (and it is a mortal, not a neverborn), you would be willing to bet something on them is enchanted. Now if you took active steps to, you could smother the magic and keep it nonfunctional, and make reality work the way it should. But that would also be very rude and seems like a very good way to end up in a fight you don't particularly need or want. So instead you heft Zharrgal to bring it down and bleed the earth dry on the Daemon.

Only for the mace to fly out aimed right towards the Keeper's abdomen, his gut and ribs. Distantly you hear the sound of music as you can feel magic flowing into the metal ball and each spike. And what's more, for all it's a heavy weapon, it is fast. Not faster than you could possibly imagine. Not faster than belief. Not fast beyond the comprehension of mortals. Not faster than anything that size should be. But fast. Fast enough, in fact, that it slams like a somber note into the Daemon's gut, sending it flying and already de-materializing as Hysh flows into the oversized, spindly body. The rest follow suit in the moments following, except as far as you can tell they have no reason to.

Eh. You've seen it done better, but you've seen it done worse, too.

The unknown mortal falls to one knee, panting in exhaustion (feh) but more in the way of an athlete than in the way of the wounded. He does, however, peel off his cloak and hood, exposing himself for the first time. His hair is the soft black of a raven's feather, or at least that's what you can see poking out of his helmet, for indeed a helmet he bears. A long white brigandine with golden studs that reaches to his thighs protects his torso, while maille and plates cover his arms and all the way to his knees. All together not inadequate for anyone not a Dawi. You would expect better out of your students, and you're not a fan of brigandines, but it's fine enough armor, not slopped together in any case, or at least slopped together in a way even the cursory examination of a Runelord can't find it. Handsome.

And oh yes, he has horns. Two straight, mighty things project from his head, each long and sharp as a dagger. Each is covered in a cap of gold, polished and painted until it shines a brilliant pure white that melds in with the precious metal. And he stands on a deer's legs, muscular, thick and strong.

He is a damn beastmen.

Charging he turns about and his eyes, the pure red of Khorne, widen in surprise as he sees you. He raises his shield even as you race at him, power burning in Zharrgal, a might to shake the world growing and growing. The Runes begin to burn, Conduction, Smednir, Thungni--fail? The power does not reach them. The power does not reach them. A mere hunk of Adamant slams into the shield and while the grunt you hear is satisfying, the fact remains that there should have been no grunt. He, it, should simply have died, burned to ashes. Instead there is a brief dance between the two of you as he blocks and you strike, your mind whirring.

You are not so naive as to believe the Runes are literally unbeatable. Daemons have proven that, greenskins have proven that, elves have proven that--Valaya's Ale, the Umgi have proven that! But there is a difference between the Runes being beaten and the Runes failing. Greenskins managing to shove together an enchantment of durability that allows their blades to withstand the Rune of Breaking, the Elves shoving so much magic into the Runes that they pop, base Umgi cunning (and they are cunning, you must allow them that whatever else you think of them) meaning they attack while you are performing maintenance and unable to use them is one thing.

But for them to fail? To, having been rightly maintained and well cared for, in an environment of sufficient magic, refuse to turn on and apply the needed and necessary effects? Absurdity. Impossibility. You know not what this creature has done to your works, but you will see him die, painfully, for it.

"Elder, please, listen!"

"Elder? Elder?" Aye, perhaps that's what's causing such trouble for the Runes. Thungni's gaze follows all that bears His Mark, after all. A Dawi, of all the damned things, a right proper Dawi turned into a depraved Gor? Perhaps he's maintained enough sense to realize what will become of him and wants you to take word back to his Clan? It would be the least you could do for such an unlucky creature. And aye, perhaps that's why Smednir's Rune refuses to work? "What could you have to say that might make me turn my blade away from you, abomination?"

"Parley!" He manages to knock your hammer aside and then leap back an impressive distance before pulling out a small ring of charms. The three scythes spiraling tell you nothing. Nor the stylized sword. The small wolf though, and the eagle, those you understand. Not half as much, however, as you understand the small, golden basket of stonebread, so impossibly detailed that you can almost smell it. A craftsmanship beyond mortal hands. The work of Valaya. It faintly shimmers with power, not enough to be a true artifact, but the sort of thing that a servant of evil would have to handle carefully. Through intermediaries.

And then the Gor takes off his damn glove of mail and wraps the Glimril in his hand. There is no burning, no screams, no sizzle of meat as Her holy essence touches the depraved creature. He is...unharmed. Unstruck. Unwounded. Hale, whole and hearty. "I am, not, Gor," he says in passable, if stilted, Khazalid, the kind learned if only educated by books and writing. "I know what I seem. I know how I look. I know the evil of my form. But I am no servant of the Slavemasters." He looks up at the cracking lightning that has been slowly growing over the weeks, far, far to the north. "I am not a slave to darkness. I never shall be. I am free, I am free and I am clean, I am free and I am cleaned and I am bathed in the waters of sanctification."

Your grip relaxes even as your mind races.

"And I have come to commission you."

Your mind screeches to a halt. "What?"

"Far, far to the south, in the land of Daemons and beasts, a god walks among mortals." He speaks softly and slowly, as though he still cannot believe it himself even as he lives it. "A lowly creature of darkness begged for aid, and aid was given, and souls were freed. You know of the Frundrar, of Dwarfs who in spite of being born with the claim of the Ancestors on their souls still were claimed by Hashut through his treacherous bargain. Why then should it be a surprise to you, Snorri Citybreaker, that among the gods one of cunning should claim from Chaos their servants, making a fair deal in the process? We were freed then, and were made whole and hale."

One thought process at a time, Snorri, one thought process at a time. The other shoe will drop, but if he were Chaos Valaya's token would have burned him beyond all recognition, and likely the others as well. The Runes would have burned. He would be dead, or you would be. "And what would you be commissioning me for, then?"

"A child is born, a child is born to the god. Iakgorthor, Obstacle to the Cruel, would welcome His Daughter to the world with proper regalia."

"And if He is a god, could He not do it Himself?"

"A mortal must arm a mortal, Runelord." He closes his eyes, as though imagining it. "For all She is of divine blood too She is born of us and by Her nature that makes Her ill-suited to claim the full essence now, in Her naissance. Like a toddler imbibing Bugman's. Why you, Snorri Klausson? Because you have armed, and armored, Divinity before. The King of the Skies. The Companions. The Enchantress."

"That's all well and good, Garazgori, but I am a Runelord. Only one may command me."

"He is well aware." The not-a-beastman pulls out a hunk of...of Oathgold. "He will be disappointed, but will not rage as you might fear, should you turn it aside as is your right for His nature is Justice, Runelord. There would, however, be several hundred more pounds of that for you if you did."

Ancestor's Love and Thungni's Glare, you are...you are considering it. "And what, precisely, did the Obstacle to the Cruel desire?"

The not a Beastmen smiles, and it is utterly gormless, innocent even. "Tell me, are you opposed to brigandines..."

Something of a one off, I've been actually considering some things including the Not-Chaos Beastmen and etc, for a project of sorts.
 
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Huh!

Neat!

Glimril amulet from Valaya is maybe a little weird but eh, it's also entertaining!
 
No I wouldn't and comparing the two is kinda ridiculous. The comparison doesn't hold water because you are creating this speculated property of Dragon Eyes, as if we don't know from in quest what the general idea of Fimir Eyes can do. Also this comparison attempt doesn't hold water because there's another important WoG here: When you use a reagent on a rune that is different from its normal reagent, you are in the end creating an entirely new rune. The rune we create by putting Forged Eye and Meargh Eyes together may be very crude or flawed, but it remains as our best lead in a situation where a research chain doesn't show up. And this rune is all I actually want.

If in a situation where we have research paths for Akazit and Rune Metal and Windsight all available to us and you want to prioritize Akazit and Rune Metal over Windsight, sure. I don't understand why you would want to, I think its a silly way to prioritize things. But, however we prioritize things I want to get Akazit done alongside Windsight anyway and Akazit is the reagent part of Durin's Consternation since it will have to explore why reagents interact with runes in the ways they do.
...
Thats such a dumb handwave, do you not even understand my concern?
Sure rune of forged eye with Meargh eye is a different rune, whatever we agree. However I don't think 0.95 Forged Eye and 0.1 Meargh Eye is enough of a difference to actually turn it into a rune that grants wind sight.
I don't know if you picked up on this before but I think the difference here is that I think Windsight it going to be much more difficult than think, requiring a combo with magic affecting runes to alter the definition of Forged Eye.
I think we're asking a lot of a single reagent to grant a whole new sense. Especially when we have two empty rune slots to give that altered meaning. I don't have the WoG post on me atm but the reagent is the least important factor creating items after the runes, the combo, the effort put in.
Not that using a Mearghs eye would have no effect, but that it would not have enough effect.
I'm expecting we'd need something like : MAmplification, Forged Eye (Mearghs Eye), Refraction (Mearghs Eye).
Using MAmplification to interact with Magic, altered refraction to try and convert wind into light and altered Forged eye to see it because I don't trust refraction to do the whole thing itself.

And if you don't understand my prioritisation, I kinda think people are looking for the one trick that will let us double the speed we do research by seeing magic, however I don't really think its going to work as Elves never cracked Runes so the winds are obviously not the only answer or thing going on in Runes. Its not even disputed that Teclisian Wind theory is incomplete, because it can't explain Elementalists or Divine magic and so on.
I've already said, I'm fine with looking into it.
Well, I've got no objections to researching it, I'm certain we'll be able to use to it somewhere even if it can't create the windsight eye, but I guess that means we're at least one step away from attempting it.
Get back to me when Rune metal and Akazit have hit walls take so much effort windsight is easier and I'll change my mind.
My problem with prioritsing windsight research is specifically that we could spend effort searching for this one weird trick and if at the end of it, we have an eye that occasionally gives glimpses, barely perceptible windsight, not much better than relying on a Brana to observe, are we happy to call that a huge success, the first of its kind in granting dwarves a new sense? Or are we going to go deeper until we have windsight to match Volans and if we do and that still doesn't give us a notable research modifier do we give up? And what if theres only one more bit to the Rune metal tree and it doesn't involve windsight?
I can very easily see the thread getting distracted and spending more effort on doing this than actually just doing the research.
If that eye that gives no mechanical bonus is enough for you, then I can respect that, but is it?
 
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