RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Karnax626]

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
[X] Plan: It's all about structure

I'd rather Snorri end the trade with 0 Hesitance.

 

[Derpmind]

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
[X] Plan: It's all about structure

Pushing too hard on Snorri can not be undone easily. We can always gain more runes and do more research, but not even Snorri's armor can protect him against overstressing himself.

 

[Ptolemy03]

[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, MTriage

 

[Affi]

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
[X] Plan: It's all about structure

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, MTriage

 

[BungieONI]

To illustrate what bugs me here, rune trade for research trade. 1 for 1 progress on research trees can be bought, to a maximum of 12 points per tree (i.e. the sum total knowledge she has). But we're only buying just enough to complete the tree, and not one ounce more or less.

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The thing is her max of 12 may *not* be the sum total of the knowledge she has. We are not seeing her full list; the Mobile Swamp Begone Statue isn't on here.

It's less about having the number, and more about being able to buy that number up with "currency", as is happening in this vote, and the previous one.
We owe Ravnsvake a favor, so quick, throw them a bone so we're square.
And the less said about buying Standing 8 so we get the bonus, the better.


To illustrate what bugs me here, rune trade for research trade. 1 for 1 progress on research trees can be bought, to a maximum of 12 points per tree (i.e. the sum total knowledge she has). But we're only buying just enough to complete the tree, and not one ounce more or less.


This one is definitely a personal thing, but I think the Randomness of traits like peerless production is the way to go. That random factor makes preplanning everything from 5 turns in advance impossible, because you may or may not finish things. You can plan to end up pretty close but never quite spot on.
But this definitely falls in the "too late, no retcons/nerfing" category.
-----
Here's what I would change for Rune trades to change the perfect information/buying standing part:
- Remove the option to buy standing outright
- Rather than 1:1 trade for AP, change it to 2 for 1D3, but leave the maximum investment cap there. A good roll, i.e Ogra having 12 points, but the dice proccing for more than 12 points represents Snorri gaining insight based on other things he knows. A low roll otoh, is Snorri already having the knowledge.
- Change rune costs from 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 etc, to 1D3, 2+1D3, etc. It still averages out the same way, but has a bit more "play"
- Roll the 1D3s after the vote is called. Any unbalanced scores are divided by 5 and changed to a Standing bonus or Favors. This makes the standing unlikely to go up by more than 1, but I think that's a feature in this case. Another fun thing to do could be deciding whether to round down or up depending on the Runelord: Vragni's antagonistic relationship and Ogra's "despite your other behaviour" statement would be harder to shift than Brynna, who has a history of more positive interactions.
@soulcake: thoughts?

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Reading your thoughts, what I come away with is the impression that you want something you can engage with in less time than what you feel is currently necessary to make plans. Is this an accurate impression?

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
[X] Plan: It's all about structure

Pushing too hard on Snorri can not be undone easily. We can always gain more runes and do more research, but not even Snorri's armor can protect him against overstressing himself.

Click to shrink...

I had some curiosity regarding this take and went back through our past trades to look through things.

Lorna was a 0/2 Hesitance trade, there wasn't a great deal of complexity to the list here and it was very likely to end up at 0/2 Hesitance or 1/2 Hesitance if we went full bore with her. I don't think there was really a situation we'd have gone for 2/2 Hesitance with her, tbh.

Right, the Runes she's willing to teach you, that. Girl's proved she isn't completely unworthy based on that Banner Rune, or at least not as unworthy as you feared she'd be. You still have some reservations of course, but certainly lesser in comparison to before. If the opportunity presents itself again, you're likely to offer a wider selection. Of course, such a thing depends more on availability and happenstance.

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So at least one reason to go for Hesitance being low is that Snorri might offer a wider selection in a second trade. However, there are two pieces Snorri calls out as more important: what he has to trade and happenstance. Like with Ogra here, we may offer much, but the other person may simply not be interested. The reverse may also happen! Snorri may trade with someone and he isn't much interested in what they have to sell for whatever reason. Also, we haven't gotten a repeat trade yet, so any such consideration has to be weighed against the significant amount of time.

Valma was a 1/2 Hesitance trade and he made a note that it was a small 'hop of faith' as he put it.

A part of you does keen sorrowfully at the understanding that it may be a good long while before you can actually get to grips with the mountain of knowledge you traded with Valma for. You had some lingering doubts about her worthiness, but given how she handled herself here, and the wealth of knowledge she had on display you decided just a teensy leap, more a hop really, of faith was warranted.

The look on her face though.

HA!

Probably had no clue where to start, did she?

Well, the lass should be fine. A few stressed words, a couple of grunts and a few well-timed stares during the course of your negotiations and you're fairly certain you'd given plenty of clues as to which Rune proved pivotal in drawing up the Deep Magic as Valma put it. Not everything could be served up on a silver platter for her after all!

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I'm not reading a great deal of increasing stress between 0 and 1 Hesitance when I look at this. Going 2/2 Hesitance on Ogra will mean that Snorri will have questions of Ogra's worthyness, pretty straightforwardly encapsulated in some of what he's giving being powerful runes Snerra has created, and want Ogra to prove herself for what he has given. Or it could be questions of worthiness on the hints about Adamant and Unyielding, or some mix of all four things.

The argument I would make is that Hesitance is meant to give us, in the quest's narrative, a way to capture that Snorri is a dwarf and thus has secrets he feels people need to be Worthy of. And on the other hand it is meant to create obstacles and constraints we have to work around in a given trade, so that we're not constantly selling everything and buying everything. A way to give the trades texture to engage with. And so I don't think its fully comparable to the stress involved in the planning of the Khazagar. E: A thought that just occurred to me is that a better question when faced with Hesitance might be "Do we think this person we're giving these powerful runes to is going to have the opportunity and skill to prove themselves worthy?".

On another topic, soulcake restricting Standing gains from rune trades makes sense to me. Related to the cycle of system creation that he mentioned earlier, I kinda see it as a simplification. Being able to take someone like Brynna from Standing 1 to Standing 6 is... not really sensible to me. Like its fun and I'd be interested in doing it to see how he writes that, but it does strain belief and connection between what the mechanics are saying and what is established in the narrative. Restricting it means that it becomes a smaller factor in planning for Rune Trades in the future.

 

[Naatra]

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
[X] Plan: It's all about structure

 

[Copperscale]

The thing is her max of 12 may *not* be the sum total of the knowledge she has. We are not seeing her full list; the Mobile Swamp Begone Statue isn't on here.

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All of the knowledge Ogra is willing to trade about "The Secrets of Storage" and "The Fixing of Things" can be bought for 12 points. I doubt it's all she knows about the material, given she has multiple repair oriented master runes.

Reading your thoughts, what I come away with is the impression that you want something you can engage with in less time than what you feel is currently necessary to make plans. Is this an accurate impression?

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I guess that is mostly correct... except for the fact that in terms of activity, I'm only second to You and Dark as Silver in terms of post count on this thread.
Plans from 5 turns in advance means that to get an action I'd like to see, I have to argue for months to keep a thing relevant.
It's exhausting.

Unless Soulcake rocks the boat, it's very hard to change the plan from X turns ago.

So voting for me has become "find the plan you disagree with the least, and vote for that". Which makes me sad, cos I love this quest.

 

[Murazor]

Not ideal, but it'll do.

[x] Plan: It's all about structure

 

[Karnax626]

The thing is her max of 12 may *not* be the sum total of the knowledge she has. We are not seeing her full list; the Mobile Swamp Begone Statue isn't on here.

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I could easily see whatever she uses for the statue being a 3 Hesitance thing on her part.

 

[Woltaire]

[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, MTriage
[X] Plan Max Research with Smednir and Thungni, +1 standing
[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, Structure Runes

I'm pretty sure we don't, but I have to ask: Do we get the Master of the Odd proc for the research? @soulcake

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also @soulcake I think you missed this question

 

[RiyeLink]

[x] Plan: It's all about structure
[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U

 

[Dragonofelder]

Hrmm. In concept, perfectly acceptable. Stowed away for a Research reward.

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Had a thought after I made the post, for one of the reagents that this rune would need: the blood of a Runesmith. Thoughts? #Rune-Ideas

 

[Copperscale]

Had a thought after I made the post, for one of the reagents that this rune would need: the blood of a Runesmith. Thoughts?

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The Edge! I am so Cut.

 

[Aliya]

[X] Plan Max Research with Smednir and Thungni, +1 standing

I think that getting +3 standing is a bit gamey, so I am voting for this one.

 

[DXCS]

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
[X] Plan: It's all about structure

 

[Dragonofelder]

The Edge! I am so Cut.

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Lol yeah. Didn't really intend it like that though. It's more about... the power of blood, and the power of Runes that flow through all Runesmith's veins.

If I wanted to be uber-edge, I could have changed it to "Blood of a Runepriest unwillingly given" but that's a bit much. Maybe for the Master version... #Rune-Ideas

 

[Copperscale]

Lol yeah. Didn't really intend it like that though. It's more about... the power of blood, and the power of Runes that flow through all Runesmith's veins.

If I wanted to be uber-edge, I could have changed it to "Blood of a Runepriest unwillingly given" but that's a bit much. Maybe for the Master version... #Rune-Ideas

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Keep in mind Snorri's reaction to the thought of Runesmiths being used as reagents, and how he rationalized using the Meargh Eye as a reagent.

I don't think using some freely given blood (especially not your own) is outright forbidden, but it's probably frowned upon.

 

[werdZerg13]

[x] Plan: It's all about structure

 

[soulcake]

I'm pretty sure we don't, but I have to ask: Do we get the Master of the Odd proc for the research? @soulcake

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From Ogra's trade? No.

 

[DarknessSmiles]

[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, MTriage

 

[Dark as Silver]

Alright trying to gather plans, did I miss any?

[X] Plan Max Research with Smednir and Thungni, +1 standing

Spoiler: Plan Max Research with Smednir and Thungni, +1 standing

[X] Plan Max Research with Smednir and Thungni, +1 standing
-Sell: 69 Pts +4 Hesitance
-- 6 Free Pts
-- Master Rune of Waking, Improved, [Engineering], Worth: 4 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Banner], Worth: 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Weapon], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grungni [Talismanic], Worth: 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Armour], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Talisman], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Forgeflame [Talismanic], Worth: 2 points
-- Knowledge, A copy of the Monolith Map, Worth: 2 points
-- Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour], Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Amplification/Snerra Magnasdottir [Talismanic], Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Combo, Amplifier, Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance (Requires Amplification)
-- Research, The Rune Metal, Worth: 7pts +1 Hesitance
-Buy: 69pts -2 Hesitance +1 Standing
-- 1 standing: 5pts
-- Master Rune of Smednir's Bounty [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Metal refined within a structure has a minor chance of producing more end product than usual), Cost: 12 points, -1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance [Structural] (Lonely Rune, Reagents used within a structure have a minor chance of not being consumed, DOES NOT INCLUDE T5 Reagents), Cost: 12 points, -1 Hesitance
-- Research, The Fixing of Things, Cost: 1 point per progress, max 12 points total. 12 Pts
-- Research, The Secrets of Storage, Cost: 1 point per progress, max 12 points total. 12Pts
-- Knowledge, The Monolith Lore of Clan Diamondback, Cost: 6 points
-- Rune of Gazul's Flame [Structural] (Generates a field of burning flame that deals extra damage to daemons around or in a structure), Cost: 2 points
-- Rune of Ordinary Stones [Structural] (Obfuscates structures bearing this Rune from mundane perception), Cost: 2 points

-- Master Rune of Triage [Structural] (Slows bleeding, spread of poison and fortifies vitality and willpower of Dwarfs in room), Cost: 4 points
-- Rune of the Guard Tower [Structural] (vision and vocal volume of those in the room are increased. More copies improve the effect), Cost: 2 points

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Using this as the plan I'm comparing others too

[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, MTriage
-Sell: 69 Pts +4 Hesitance
-- 6 Free Pts
-- Master Rune of Waking, Improved, [Engineering], Worth: 4 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Banner], Worth: 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Weapon], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grungni [Talismanic], Worth: 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Armour], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Talisman], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Forgeflame [Talismanic], Worth: 2 points
-- Knowledge, A copy of the Monolith Map, Worth: 2 points
-- Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour], Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Amplification/Snerra Magnasdottir [Talismanic], Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Combo, Amplifier, Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance (Requires Amplification)
-- Research, The Rune Metal, Worth: 7pts +1 Hesitance
-Buy: 68pts -2 Hesitance +3 Standing
-- 3 standing: 15pts
-- Master Rune of Smednir's Bounty [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Metal refined within a structure has a minor chance of producing more end product than usual), Cost: 12 points, -1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance [Structural] (Lonely Rune, Reagents used within a structure have a minor chance of not being consumed, DOES NOT INCLUDE T5 Reagents), Cost: 12 points, -1 Hesitance
-- Research, The Fixing of Things, Cost: 1 point per progress, max 12 points total. 9 Pts
-- Research, The Secrets of Storage, Cost: 1 point per progress, max 12 points total. 8Pts
-- Knowledge, The Monolith Lore of Clan Diamondback, Cost: 6 points
-- Rune of Gazul's Flame [Structural] (Generates a field of burning flame that deals extra damage to daemons around or in a structure), Cost: 2 points
-- Master Rune of Triage [Structural] (Slows bleeding, spread of poison and fortifies vitality and willpower of Dwarfs in room), Cost: 4 points

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Drops basic runes to afford standing

[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, Structure Runes
-Sell: 69 Pts +4 Hesitance
-- 6 Free Pts
-- Master Rune of Waking, Improved, [Engineering], Worth: 4 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Banner], Worth: 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Weapon], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grungni [Talismanic], Worth: 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Armour], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Talisman], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Forgeflame [Talismanic], Worth: 2 points
-- Knowledge, A copy of the Monolith Map, Worth: 2 points
-- Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour], Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Amplification/Snerra Magnasdottir [Talismanic], Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Combo, Amplifier, Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance (Requires Amplification)
-- Research, The Rune Metal, Worth: 7pts +1 Hesitance
-Buy: 69pts -2 Hesitance +3 Standing
-- 3 standing: 15pts
-- Master Rune of Smednir's Bounty [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Metal refined within a structure has a minor chance of producing more end product than usual), Cost: 12 points, -1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance [Structural] (Lonely Rune, Reagents used within a structure have a minor chance of not being consumed, DOES NOT INCLUDE T5 Reagents), Cost: 12 points, -1 Hesitance
-- Research, The Fixing of Things, Cost: 1 point per progress, max 12 points total. 9 Pts
-- Research, The Secrets of Storage, Cost: 1 point per progress, max 12 points total. 9Pts
-- Knowledge, The Monolith Lore of Clan Diamondback, Cost: 6 points
-- Rune of Gazul's Flame [Structural] (Generates a field of burning flame that deals extra damage to daemons around or in a structure), Cost: 2 points
-- Rune of Ordinary Stones [Structural] (Obfuscates structures bearing this Rune from mundane perception), Cost: 2 points
-- Rune of the Guard Tower [Structural] (vision and vocal volume of those in the room are increased. More copies improve the effect), Cost: 2 points

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Drops mtriage to try and maintain the minor runes.

[x] Plan: It's all about structure
-[] Sell
--[] Master Rune of Waking, Improved, [Engineering] 4 points
--[] Master Rune of Grimnir [Banner] 6 points
--[] Master Rune of Grimnir [Weapon] 6 points
--[] Master Rune of Grungni [Talismanic] 6 points
--[] Master Rune of Valaya [Armour] 6 points
--[] Master Rune of Valaya [Talisman] 6 points
--[] Master Rune of Forgeflame [Talismanic] 2 points
--[] Knowledge, A copy of the Monolith Map 2 points
--[] Master Rune of Amplification/Snerra Magnasdottir [Talismanic] 6 points, +1 Hesitance
--[] Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour] 6 points , +1 Hesitance
--[] Research, The Rune Metal 1 point to get her started down the path
-[] Buy
--[] +1 standing, -5 points
--[] clan diamondback monolith lore -6 points
--[] Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Reagents used within a structure have a minor chance of not being consumed, DOES NOT INCLUDE T5 Reagents) -12 points -1 Hesitance
--[] Master Rune of Smednir's Bounty [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Metal refined within a structure has a minor chance of producing more end product than usual) -12 points -1 Hesitance
--[] Rune of Grungni's Fist [Structural] (Walls can periodically create temporary, fist-shaped protrusions from their surface) -2 points
--[] Rune of Gazul's Flame [Structural] (Generates a field of burning flame that deals extra damage to daemons around or in a structure) -2 points
--[] Rune of Hungering Stone [Structural] (Projectiles fired at structure are sometimes consumed and used as repair material) -2 points
--[] Rune of the Guard Tower [Structural] (vision and vocal volume of those in the room are increased. More copies improve the effect) -2 points
--[] Rune of Slippery Stones [Structural] (Structures bearing this Rune become more difficult to scale) -2 points
--[] Rune of Ordinary Stones [Structural] (Obfuscates structures bearing this Rune from mundane perception) -2 points
--[] Rune of Disruptive Stone [Structural] (Structures radiate an anti-magic aura. More copies enhance effect) -2 points
--[] Master Rune of Restraint [Structural] (Dwarfs in a room or structure bearing this Rune will resist negative mental effects, and have increased discipline and mental endurance) -4 points
--[] Master Rune of Living Stone [Structural] (Structures regenerate from same surrounding material) -4 points

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drops research to get more runes

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
- Sell 59 total points, +2 hesitance
-- Master Rune of Waking, Improved, [Engineering] 4 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Banner] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Weapon] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grungni [Talismanic] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Armour] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Talisman] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Forgeflame [Talismanic] 2 points
-- Knowledge, A copy of the Monolith Map 2 points
-- Master Rune of Amplification/Snerra Magnasdottir [Talismanic] 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour] 6 points , +1 Hesitance
-- Research, The Rune Metal 3 points
- Buy -59 points, -2 hesitance
-- +1 standing, -5 points
-- clan diamondback monolith lore -6 points
-- Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Reagents used within a structure have a minor chance of not being consumed, DOES NOT INCLUDE T5 Reagents) -12 points -1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Smednir's Bounty [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Metal refined within a structure has a minor chance of producing more end product than usual) -12 points -1 Hesitance
-- Research, The Secrets of Storage -9 points
-- Research, The Fixing of Things -9 points
-- Rune of Gazul's Flame [Structural] (Generates a field of burning flame that deals extra damage to daemons around or in a structure) -2 points
-- Master Rune of Triage [Structural] (Slows bleeding, spread of poison and fortifies vitality and willpower of Dwarfs in room) -4 points

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Changes are mostly in the sale list to balance out the hesitance. tries to find a balance between max research and maintaining runes.

 

[Wodger]

Alright trying to gather plans, did I miss any?

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Wrong version is the first vote

[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, MTriage
-Sell: 69 Pts +4 Hesitance
-- 6 Free Pts
-- Master Rune of Waking, Improved, [Engineering], Worth: 4 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Banner], Worth: 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Weapon], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grungni [Talismanic], Worth: 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Armour], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Talisman], Worth 6 points
-- Master Rune of Forgeflame [Talismanic], Worth: 2 points
-- Knowledge, A copy of the Monolith Map, Worth: 2 points
-- Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour], Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Amplification/Snerra Magnasdottir [Talismanic], Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Combo, Amplifier, Worth: 6 points, +1 Hesitance (Requires Amplification)
-- Research, The Rune Metal, Worth: 7pts +1 Hesitance
-Buy: 69pts -2 Hesitance +3 Standing
-- 3 standing: 15pts
-- Master Rune of Smednir's Bounty [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Metal refined within a structure has a minor chance of producing more end product than usual), Cost: 12 points, -1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance [Structural] (Lonely Rune, Reagents used within a structure have a minor chance of not being consumed, DOES NOT INCLUDE T5 Reagents), Cost: 12 points, -1 Hesitance
-- Research, The Fixing of Things, Cost: 1 point per progress, max 12 points total. 9 Pts
-- Research, The Secrets of Storage, Cost: 1 point per progress, max 12 points total. 9Pts
-- Knowledge, The Monolith Lore of Clan Diamondback, Cost: 6 points
-- Rune of Gazul's Flame [Structural] (Generates a field of burning flame that deals extra damage to daemons around or in a structure), Cost: 2 points
-- Master Rune of Triage [Structural] (Slows bleeding, spread of poison and fortifies vitality and willpower of Dwarfs in room), Cost: 4 points

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[aceraptor]

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U

Decided to change vote to this plan.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Wrong version is the first vote

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Thanks the first one that I think is an actual vote, so we should probably make sure that any vote tally stuff picks up the right version.