Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
[x] Plan: It's all about structure

We'll be outvoted, but meh. I just don't see the point of pushing research with ??? outcomes on this when we can literally just... do it at some point. Getting the runes is not an opportunity we get very often at all. But I'm very patient on that.
 
[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, MTriag
[X] Plan Max Research with Smednir and Thungni, +1 standing
 
Last edited:
[x] Plan: It's all about structure

[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
 
Last edited:
I don't like pushing the hesitance, is there any way we can try to not do that for the potential upcoming trade? Or even for this one?
 
[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
- Sell 59 total points, +2 hesitance
-- Master Rune of Waking, Improved, [Engineering] 4 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Banner] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grimnir [Weapon] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Grungni [Talismanic] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Armour] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Valaya [Talisman] 6 points
-- Master Rune of Forgeflame [Talismanic] 2 points
-- Knowledge, A copy of the Monolith Map 2 points
-- Master Rune of Amplification/Snerra Magnasdottir [Talismanic] 6 points, +1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Unyielding [Armour] 6 points , +1 Hesitance
-- Research, The Rune Metal 3 points
- Buy -59 points, -2 hesitance
-- +1 standing, -5 points
-- clan diamondback monolith lore -6 points
-- Master Rune of Thungni's Brilliance [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Reagents used within a structure have a minor chance of not being consumed, DOES NOT INCLUDE T5 Reagents) -12 points -1 Hesitance
-- Master Rune of Smednir's Bounty [Structural] (Lonely Rune*, Metal refined within a structure has a minor chance of producing more end product than usual) -12 points -1 Hesitance
-- Research, The Secrets of Storage -9 points
-- Research, The Fixing of Things -9 points
-- Rune of Gazul's Flame [Structural] (Generates a field of burning flame that deals extra damage to daemons around or in a structure) -2 points
-- Master Rune of Triage [Structural] (Slows bleeding, spread of poison and fortifies vitality and willpower of Dwarfs in room) -4 points

Mostly identical to one of my earlier prototypes, Soul Cake said that going slightly above 4 maximums on the university would make Snorri go slayer if he could and be censured by the guild so right now I imagine Snorri is right on the edge and just the stress causing mistakes alone could cause things to spiral out of control if lots of little errors start to pile up.
I Replaced the two 2 point runes with the M triage rune to hopefully get more attention.

[x] Plan: It's all about structure
 
Last edited:
We'll be outvoted, but meh. I just don't see the point of pushing research with ??? outcomes on this when we can literally just... do it at some point. Getting the runes is not an opportunity we get very often at all. But I'm very patient on that.
I've actually been thinking about the cause of this voting pattern and will make a post later (when the sun is up :p)
 
Mostly identical to one of my earlier prototypes, Soul Cake said that going slightly above 4 maximums on the university would make Snorri go slayer if he could and be censured by the guild so right now I imagine Snorri is right on the edge and just the stress causing mistakes alone could cause things to spiral out of control if lots of little errors start to pile up.
That's not really a concern. This is more how Snorri will think of Ogra than anything else - at +2 hesitance he'll think she needs to prove herself worthy of what he has given. But that's about it. It colors personal interactions more than anything.

On the other hand the university was more... going too far to the point of countermanding the dictates on Runesmiths as the runesmiths understand them.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Finish Pt1 Research with Smednir and Thungni, +3 standing, Structure Runes

I don't particularly like going to the hesitance limit but if folks think it's fine, then sure. Other than that the big standing bonus is neat, a lot of interesting and weird runes in Ogra's hands so we should at least get some extra ones, make the best guard towers as well.
 
So anyway, sun's up.

I don't know how many people feel the same way, but I think it's going to be quite an unpopular opinion, especially among the turn planners.

But it's affecting my ability to engage with the votes.

And when I saw the votes today, I manage to put that into words.

Anyway, it comes down to having perfect information combined with predictable mechanics.

- we know exactly how much work is left before an option gets completed
- we can predict how our traits are going to proc
- we know exactly where we stand with people and factions
- we know exactly what we're trading for

I don't know how much of this falls under "feature" rather than "bugs", and it's almost certainly too late to change how the quest works at this point.
But I feel it's too easy to game the system to find the optimal solution, and once you have that math down it's hard to argue against.

@soulcake: tagging you so it hopefully doesn't get lost in the vote posts.
 
[X] Plan Max Research with Smednir and Thungni, +1 standin
[X] Plan: Don't stress Snorri during the construction of Rune U
 
Last edited:
I don't know how much of this falls under "feature" rather than "bugs", and it's almost certainly too late to change how the quest works at this point.
But I feel it's too easy to game the system to find the optimal solution, and once you have that math down it's hard to argue against.
It honestly falls under neither, at least it did in my head. Having that info just seemed like the expectation to me but that's based on the quests I read. A stylistic decision I suppose? There isn't really a one right answer I think to the discussion, just preference. Obviously some quests do their choice better than the other though.
 
Not trying to be rude here @IronFist , but I don't see any reason why Snorri wouldn't know these things as a matter of course.
- we know exactly how much work is left before an option gets completed
- we can predict how our traits are going to proc
Isn't that part and parcel with being a Runelord? That we aren't starting out and unclear of what we can do, but understand our own strengths and weaknesses and how we improve over the years? It's not like we began the quest as a apprentice, Snorri was already an accomplished Runelord after all.
- we know exactly where we stand with people and factions
I'm not sure why this is an issue when we had to unlock a number of the Standings by doing actions that revealed them to us. And since Snorri is quite good at concealing himself and listening to people, and has numerous people around him to keep him informed, it makes sense that he'd know how people felt about him over the course of a turn.
- we know exactly what we're trading for
Why wouldn't Snorri be able to know what he's trading for? This is a trade between two Runelords who are quite experienced, they'll make sure both sides know the value of what they are trading for.
 
I don't know how much of this falls under "feature" rather than "bugs", and it's almost certainly too late to change how the quest works at this point.
But I feel it's too easy to game the system to find the optimal solution, and once you have that math down it's hard to argue against.
sounds like basically almost every single quest that features an AP system?
 
We're in it. We're in the Golden Age. This is it. This is what we know. Congrats. Welcome to magic.
If that's the case, that implies this is the highest we shall ever get, and I think we can go higher. Maybe not in our characters lifetime and hence this quest, but I believe all the same. Just gotta get through a melting pudding of a toad looking at the world and saying 'This doesn't match the totally valid plans that my people can barely understand anyway' and a small problem after that in the End Times.

But more seriously, I meant "a DAOT equvilent" as in, a good hundred thousand years in the future when magic is reduced to a science in totality, completely and totally understood, not in any 'golden age' sense. It been my understanding that the Magic in WHF and the 'Psychic phenomena' of 40K where literally the same thing, same energy, same effects, just understood differently. That the Realm of Souls and the Warp are two names for two alternate versions of the same thing, only one far more actively malicious because of the War in Heaven and it's after effects. I did like it when the universes where officially connected, if barely
 
The general Dawi culture to hoard and not pool rune knowledge has always frustrated me. As has the Rule of Pride and the absolutism of the Rule of Form and Rule of Three. But assuming they come from Thrungi, I do assume they have a rational reason beyond 'because I said so'. I imagine mishandled Runes are quite dangerous. I do wonder how he figured all this out without dying in an arcane fireball.

Does stacking Master runes or remaking them somehow draw the ire of the Realm of Souls? Did Thrungi do some advanced mathematics and deduce that it would be impossible no matter how durable something is, like how a full scale ring world would exceed the tensile strength of matter itself, and as such it would be a massive waste of time?

These rules exist, and as frustrating as I sometimes find them, there's gotta be reason. The Ancestors haven't steered us wrong before. I wonder what a hypothetical DAOT Humanity equivalent of Dawi kind would know of Runes, and if they would have concrete reason for the Rules.
I know other people have answered but I typed this all up before checking who'd beaten me to it so...
The rule of Form and the rule of Three are actually rules about runes work. And its Durin's consternation territory.
The rule of form is simply that some runes only work on specific kinds of object. And to some extent this makes sense, runes are probably interacting with some kind of platonic ideals in the warp so somethings aren't linkable in the way that a rune that makes a weapon hit harder put on a suit of armour would fail as you aren't meant to hit things with armour.
And the rule of three is that nobody has ever successfully put four items on an object without breaking it from the magical forces involved. There are exceptions in Lonely runes, which are so powerful they can't be shared with anything else. And related is that armour runes are too powerful to be placed on anything except Gromril. However its also not clear why arrays without master runes aren't able to stack more than three times or why there are no known combinations that only accept two runes (That one legendary Axe of Drago perhaps???). Or why combos so powerful they can only be fired off once a decade due to the recharge period don't break the materials they're inscribed on when they're fired. To link this back to the platonic rune theory, one possible explanation is in "Runespace" there's just a finite volume you can pack runes into and more powerful runes take up more space and exert more pressure on the volume.
There is active research into defeating the rule of three by the Brotherhood and others, mainly by trying to find a item capable of withstanding 4 runes.

The rule of pride is the only one that originated from Thungni and it came from observing and attempting to mimic his behaviour which is why its so much more variable than the other rules in terms of how people express it. Its possible this is unintended, Thungni just got bored if he had to make the same thing twice so he didn't. However theres a more compelling theory that relates to what the priestess of Valaya told us.
"Of course High Priestess, your wisdom would be most welcome."

"Hmph. Then listen well to what I have to tell you lad. In Her efforts to straighten out the flaws in our ways, Valaya snuffed out many of our worst traditions. Those borne from our inherent flaws that which, in our blindness, solidified into a calcareous muck that clogged and marred us. The Clan Wars, the Old Remits of Zorn, the Castes, the mistreatment and Binding Oaths of the Lower Clans, all done away with. Consigned to the pages of tomes never to be repeated. Yet. It was not without purpose, and what was destroyed she replaced with better, truer ways. Valaya understood our people better than even ourselves. You seem the type to try and change things for better or worse, can't say I had that much energy at your age but be aware of this moving forward. Things are done for reasons, they may not be good ones, but those reasons need to be addressed one way or another."

With her piece said the High Priestess nods a final time before she walks off back deeper into the temple, Valkyrie Guard following dutifully.
Dwarves have a natural tendancy towards conservatism and its entirely possible that without the Rule of Pride, dwarves would just keep a list of known combos Thungni used and if you ever attempted to make something that wasn't on that list, half of the Runelords would start screaming at you to justify why you think you knew better than Thungni did.
During the golden age, the rule of pride isn't really a restriction. Creating MRunes is so time comsuming and expensive that we would never have been able to spam them out even if the rule didn't exist so the only way we've actually been restricted is that its stopped us spamming out a smelter and a gronti every turn (thank god that would get boring quickly).
And when you look at people who have been genuinely impacted like Vragni who wants to be productive and stick tightly to a very conservative interpretation of the rule, look at the 'loopholes' it encouraged him to do:
  1. Research new variations of runes.
  2. Train many apprentices.
These are just good things. They push the field of runecrafting forward and expand it. So viewed from this angle the Rule of pride should be considered an attempt to reframe natural dwarvern conservatism into a more liberal and outword looking culture similar to what Thungni's brother is doing with the Engineers.
It didn't become a problem until the time of woes when many runes where lost, and when we look at the alternative where they're only building off of a list, well they still have a very similar problem where runes essential to the list have been lost.
I'll admit it, I just enjoy talking about this.

- we know exactly what we're trading for
It would be ludicrous for both parties to just put the things they're willing to trade for on the table with no explanation.
And we don't really know, or rather the ambiguity comes in later when we actually try and do stuff with the runes and try and find synergies.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure why this is an issue when we had to unlock a number of the Standings by doing actions that revealed them to us. And since Snorri is quite good at concealing himself and listening to people, and has numerous people around him to keep him informed, it makes sense that he'd know how people felt about him over the course of a turn.
It's less about having the number, and more about being able to buy that number up with "currency", as is happening in this vote, and the previous one.
We owe Ravnsvake a favor, so quick, throw them a bone so we're square.
And the less said about buying Standing 8 so we get the bonus, the better.

Why wouldn't Snorri be able to know what he's trading for? This is a trade between two Runelords who are quite experienced, they'll make sure both sides know the value of what they are trading for.
To illustrate what bugs me here, rune trade for research trade. 1 for 1 progress on research trees can be bought, to a maximum of 12 points per tree (i.e. the sum total knowledge she has). But we're only buying just enough to complete the tree, and not one ounce more or less.

Isn't that part and parcel with being a Runelord? That we aren't starting out and unclear of what we can do, but understand our own strengths and weaknesses and how we improve over the years? It's not like we began the quest as a apprentice, Snorri was already an accomplished Runelord after all.
This one is definitely a personal thing, but I think the Randomness of traits like peerless production is the way to go. That random factor makes preplanning everything from 5 turns in advance impossible, because you may or may not finish things. You can plan to end up pretty close but never quite spot on.
But this definitely falls in the "too late, no retcons/nerfing" category.
-----
Here's what I would change for Rune trades to change the perfect information/buying standing part:
- Remove the option to buy standing outright
- Rather than 1:1 trade for AP, change it to 2 for 1D3, but leave the maximum investment cap there. A good roll, i.e Ogra having 12 points, but the dice proccing for more than 12 points represents Snorri gaining insight based on other things he knows. A low roll otoh, is Snorri already having the knowledge.
- Change rune costs from 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 etc, to 1D3, 2+1D3, etc. It still averages out the same way, but has a bit more "play"
- Roll the 1D3s after the vote is called. Any unbalanced scores are divided by 5 and changed to a Standing bonus or Favors. This makes the standing unlikely to go up by more than 1, but I think that's a feature in this case. Another fun thing to do could be deciding whether to round down or up depending on the Runelord: Vragni's antagonistic relationship and Ogra's "despite your other behaviour" statement would be harder to shift than Brynna, who has a history of more positive interactions.
@soulcake: thoughts?
 
Here's what I would change for Rune trades to change the perfect information/buying standing part:
- Remove the option to buy standing outright
- Rather than 1:1 trade for AP, change it to 2 for 1D3, but leave the maximum investment cap there. A good roll, i.e Ogra having 12 points, but the dice proccing for more than 12 points represents Snorri gaining insight based on other things he knows. A low roll otoh, is Snorri already having the knowledge.
- Change rune costs from 2, 4, 6, 8, 12 etc, to 1D3, 2+1D3, etc. It still averages out the same way, but has a bit more "play"
- Roll the 1D3s after the vote is called. Any unbalanced scores are divided by 5 and changed to a Standing bonus or Favors. This makes the standing unlikely to go up by more than 1, but I think that's a feature in this case. Another fun thing to do could be deciding whether to round down or up depending on the Runelord: Vragni's antagonistic relationship and Ogra's "despite your other behaviour" statement would be harder to shift than Brynna, who has a history of more positive interactions.
@soulcake: thoughts?
A lot of Dice Rolling. In a vacuum, it would make for a more varied experience, but I'd be rolling everything on the list and its an unwieldy thing to do that for so many items, which should be kept in mind. Which I think is the major sticking point. I've crafted robust systems that are better at simulating a natural thing for the quest, and more times than not I've removed them as they were too complex for something that players don't experience often.

I already roll a lot, I don't want to roll more than I have to.

The underlying logic behind some of the decisions is similarly mixed, but on the whole theres stuff there I do agree with. Snorri coming to new conclusions and getting more than expected from the info gotten is something that I can narratively add and have that number simply incorporate as part of the total. It may be a disconnect.

As for your points about Runelord Standing, here is something that's more actionable for me. I didn't expect questers to purposefully leave 15 points unspent solely for Standing Gains, so that's something I'm gonna have to consider and definitely patch for the future. As for their personal relationship and individual quirks affecting prices, well that's already true if perhaps obtuse to infer from the costs.

Your sell list is limited for instance, the prices are different from each other and historic trades and this is a result of Ogra's own desires and quirks. Ancestor Runes are more valuable pointwise for a reason, similarly, the Master Runes cost 12 points for more reasons than just Ogra's perception of their value and the effort put into their research. Adamant research is only worth 1 point when it arguably is a major game changer, your map is only 2 when she has stated that she knows about Waystones and knowing where those places are would be considered worth her time.

I understand there's nuance here that can be shown, and stuff like that is something I do keep in mind. It's just a decision on my part not to create a mechanical system to reflect the narrative reality in that way, and your post has given me a lot to think about how I should be doing that more.

As other QMs have more eloquently said in this thread and elsewhere.

Simple system.
System breaks.
Review, and revise.
Implement changes.
Repeat until system becomes too complex.
Simplify system.
Repeat.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top