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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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This is objectively better. If we do the all in on the underway next turn we'll get overflow bonuses.

There's a couple reasons I think it's better to do it this turn, aside from hoping we get lucky and someone else finishes off the last 4 point so the connection is opened sooner. There's also the fact that going all in this turn signals to the rest of the hold that it's going to be finished soon, so that changes the strategic picture for them. We saw in the update they were pondering trying to clear trollbane pass for example.
 
all your plans suck because they don't include "allying with megagriffons" as an action
 
[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions
[X] Plan More Dramatic to Sprint Last
There's another possibility if we can leverage the Rune of Brotherhood. Put that on the golem and then link it to a helmet or some other piece of gear that a dwarf wears. As a result the golem can use the dwarf's skill at combat/take more direct orders making it a better fighter. And when the fight's over simply direct the thing back home and take off the helmet. Gets a similar effect without the pitfalls of dealing with a sentient golem.
A lot of this is a mix of personal preference and paranoia, but I'd want it to be able to work at all times at peak capacity if, say, there was a suprise attack on a caravan and it's along, I'd want it to be able to immediately respond without waiting for whoever is its controller to wake up. I can see why you would want it, and if it works it seems good, but... I dunno, I'm just a bit paranoid about leaving a weak point in our golem's skills, and also definitely biased towards the sapient golem idea

Also, it is to some extent a thing of making it useful out of combat, so it doesn't have to be watched all the time, we were talking earlier about how so much knowledge was lost from the Golden Age, if the Golem has a mind it could probably pass at least some of that knowledge down to future dwarves, or if we need it, give Snorri a reason to believe the people who would open our theorized book of runes are worthy, give it to the Golem to protect/the golem is the only one who can open it and it would need some proof of worth that Snorri would tell it to open it. That ignoring whatever other knowledge that was lost during the time of woes, we won't only be at war, we have years of peace after the demons leave and I'd want our masterpiece to be able to do more than just carrying materials back and forth or mining during those times of piece, I'd want it to be able to do complex tasks on its own
Weirdo i pray this hypothetical golem isn't sapient, that's just a troublesome can of worms. Sentient, maybe, but not sapient
Why? It could be troublesome but I'd think that it would be better off capable of reason, I honestly don't know what an "expected" bad reaction of the Dwarves would be, there definitely would be one, but I can't think of what it would be, there'd be some religious support for sapient golems, Dwarves came from stone according to their tradition, so the Golems coming from metal wouldn't be that hard to justify I don't think?
 
If you want to make something to keep a Runelord safe... just make Runic armor. It has the tremendous advantage of not taking up an entire Master Rune slot.

If you want a giant, walking siege engine... make a Rune Golem.

Don't mix the two, because, and here's the other problem with making something like a mecha suit: Dwarfs have never piloted giant robots, which means this is an entirely new form of warfare to them. (If you want Dwarfs to explore and pioneer piloted warmachines, it's probably better to start with a more conventional warmachine than a golem.)

Forget arguments like "We'd have to teach other Runesmiths how to make Golem Armor", which get argued back with "Well, we just saw two Runesmiths make Rune Golems for defense of the hold." Because just using it, even if a Runesmith can make, is going to require even more specialized and rare knowledge.

In other words: why would Runelords want Golem Armor, when they can have Armor instead, which still has room for a Master Rune?
Leaving only a single rune slot for use making it good at being a big face smashing golem. So faced with this issue I thought to myself "Well people are going to want to do sapient golem shenanigans because of giant robot ideas soooo what do? Ah Rune of Fortitude, something interesting might happen and if it doesn't oh well it's still tough and good with the Heart". Put another way, even if the Rune of Fortitude makes doesn't make it sapient, it makes it a better golem, especially with the Heart.
Well, there's also the Rune of Stone. Provides more armor, kin to Dwarfs. Though Fortitude specifically was called out as "You can make a really good Rune of Fortitude with this thing!" so. On the other hand, maybe both Fortitude and Stone? Together, that gets you "Eternal, ever-enduring stone."

Shame to lose "Mighty" though, yeah... ((I mean on the one hand, you could say that if it's going to be a Giant Robot, then it's going to be really strong anyway. On the other hand, you could say that about its toughness and armor too, and we're talking about Fortitude and Stone runes, so.))

...

I think one major reason I really like the idea of making a Rune Golem from this?

Is because, given the fluff description of the Greedy Heart... it sounds a lot like it would result in a Golem that potentially won't ever need to go into slumber! Where other Golems would need to be "awakened"... this one will never sleep.

Imagine that. It will always be available for the Dawi.

... God, do I want to make it able to breath fire too...
There's another possibility if we can leverage the Rune of Brotherhood. Put that on the golem and then link it to a helmet or some other piece of gear that a dwarf wears. As a result the golem can use the dwarf's skill at combat/take more direct orders making it a better fighter. And when the fight's over simply direct the thing back home and take off the helmet. Gets a similar effect without the pitfalls of dealing with a sentient golem.
Actually what this sounds like is some kind of "Control Rod" arcane item! Or a "helm/circlet/crown of control."

A control rod or crown that controls a Rune Golem. That... feels like the sort of magic item that would exist, especially in relation to a golem, no? Though... any form of control item runs the obvious narrative risk of... well... the fact that you set up a way to get control of the golem.

... Maybe make it a weapon instead? That would be cool! Something like Brotherhood + Rune of Skill + Rune of Skill, and given to the Longbeard Champion of the Throng.

I sorta like that idea. Just... you want a golem to fight really well? Then, you pair it with your army's Champion or herald!
 
[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions

Well, looking at the Greedy Heart research I am all for making a banner with the Master rune of Valaya, Rune of Fortitude and a Rune of Dismay. Either that or supercharge a regeneration banner that can be carted around to the healing temple or for the throng to carry themselves as needed.

Also, good to see we can vote to hold the apprentices back for a little while. I'm going to vote we do that with Snerra and hold her back a couple extra turns. She's a genius, sure, but Snorri has grumbled multiple times that the longer he can hold her back and fill her head with wisdom the better off she'll be. When she finishes her apprenticeship it would of only been about 6 turns. Hold her back for 2-3 more and she'd still finish well ahead of other apprentices but she'd be that much better off than them.
 
Actually what this sounds like is some kind of "Control Rod" arcane item! Or a "helm/circlet/crown of control."

A control rod or crown that controls a Rune Golem. That... feels like the sort of magic item that would exist, especially in relation to a golem, no? Though... any form of control item runs the obvious narrative risk of... well... the fact that you set up a way to get control of the golem.

... Maybe make it a weapon instead? That would be cool! Something like Brotherhood + Rune of Skill + Rune of Skill, and given to the Longbeard Champion of the Throng.

I sorta like that idea. Just... you want a golem to fight really well? Then, you pair it with your army's Champion or herald!
The main reason I suggested a control item (aside from making the golem fight better) was that the few examples I can find of the things, indicates that normally a runesmith is tied up directing them. And as shown by Snorri, runesmiths are very valuable in a fight. This way, the thing can be 'driven' by somedwarf who isn't a runesmith.
 
Man I am getting excited for what we will be able to pull off with the Heart. It will be our masterpiece that all other runelords compare and be found wanting when they try to create a weapon to surpass Ymir!

I wonder what it would look like. Here are some pics I found.












@BungieONI

Any of these good?
 
Personally my preference is for the giant golem due to how much shit we could stack ontop of that, but a super powered banner of regeneration for all nearby would also be good. Most of the other uses discussed so far seem like wastes of the heart tho.
 
Forget arguments like "We'd have to teach other Runesmiths how to make Golem Armor", which get argued back with "Well, we just saw two Runesmiths make Rune Golems for defense of the hold."
Both arguments I made which support each other :V

But yeah what you say I generally agree with and you raise good points.

@EVA-Saiyajin your plan More Dramatic to Sprint Last is missing an indent on Rune Metal. And with Hi Ho! do you intend to use the Heart on the banner, because if so it isn't specified.

Master rune of Valaya, Rune of Fortitude and a Rune of Dismay.
We sadly don't have a simple Rune version of the Master Rune of Dismay.


Man I am getting excited for what we will be able to pull off with the Heart. It will be our masterpiece that all other runelords compare and be found wanting when they try to create a weapon to surpass Ymir!

I wonder what it would look like. Here are some pics I found.












@BungieONI

Any of these good?
The first one fits what I had in mind the most, barring the horn things on its head.
 
Just going to out and say it but screw 'for the Hold' reasoning for every single argument in regards to absolutely everything we do. Sorry but that just going to be blunt here. Seriously, every single time someone brings up a cool and awesome idea people want to go the more boring route with these kinds of things, which wouldn't be much of a problem if people didn't insist on it all the damn time. It's gotten to the point that people literally insisted that we should spend freaking turns on building a tunnel along with dropping everything else.

Really, we have consistently done a lot of things for the hold and invested a ton of actions in doing so. Meanwhile despite what people think there are tons of ways to help our dwarfs bros while having a ton of fun. Not to mention facts like we can literally make healing banners without using the heart even if it wouldn't be as good. Basically rather we go with the more interesting, awesome and fun options more often because people usually participate in quests to have fun and people prefer not to turn it into a chore.
To clarify don't actually have issue with us using the heart to make a super banner of super healing since that is actually pretty awesome. While I'd prefer the Golem I am not going to deny that the banner would be as amazing in it's own way. Have issue with feeling like people are constantly trying to guilt trip us into doing certain actions like many did with the tunnel.
The difference here is that we know how many places we have to look for stuff. Once we finish Odd Places the only way we'll probably find new and rare resources is by random event rolls.

Once we finish Odd Places and reasearched the materials we find there I'm fine with starting to build the thing as we'll know what we have to work with. I'm not waiting around on "maybe this turn the random event roll will give us something else" or something silly like that.

I just want to make sure we do all of the stuff in front of us so that later we don't go "ah, if we had just waited a bit we could have used this stuff in the Golem". That kind of situation always leads to a mountain of salt.
The problem with that is that we would not be able to do anything with the thing for literally dozens of turns from finding the places to researching everything and by then a ton of shit may have happened further increasing the time. It's just not practical since if keep doing that then we may keep running into more things like it. Besides that we may be able to get more materials on that level even if it would be rare. The QM did warn us not to horder materials after all.
 
[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions

People should really change their votes for the broken plan.
 
@BungieONI

I saw that you have approval voting for the broken plan. Any reason for that?

Only need one more vote to fix the problem.
Adhoc vote count started by Ancient Scholar on Apr 6, 2020 at 8:10 PM, finished with 218 posts and 34 votes.

  • [X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway
    -[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
    -- [X] Release them: Your bumbling charges are now of an age where they can begin the journeyman's trial. It will be perilous, but considering the state of things right now, its unlike they'll leave the immediate area or the hold for a while yet. [Cost: 2 apprentice actions permanently] Action cost will switch to Snerra
    -[X] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
    -[X] [Simple] The Underway: King Otrek does not mince words, he wants the connection to the Underway ready as soon as possible. The number of monsters that are appearing have not only forced the throng into ever increasing levels of conflict, but slowed overland travel and trade to a near standstill. The north is effectively being cut off from the rest of the Karaz Ankor inch by inch. He is calling any aid a dwarf can provide in excavating the connection south. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 17 out of (25+ 15[Delayed South]) =40 Progress. 5 progress a turn regardless of input.
    [X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions
    -[X] Teach your apprentices
    -- [X] Release them
    -[X] [Simple] The Underway: 4 Snorri actions, 2 Apprentice actions
    [X] Plan More Dramatic to Sprint Last:
    -[X] Teach your apprentices
    -- [X] Release them
    -[X] [Simple] The Underway: 1 Snorri action, 2 Apprentice actions
    [X] Plan Hi Ho! Hi Ho! To Off Some Daemons we Go!
    -[X] Teach your apprentices
    -- [X] Release them
    -[X] [Simple] The Underway: 1 Snorri action, 2 Apprentice actions
    - [X] [Difficult] A Higher Standard Pt. 1: You've gazed upon the face of the Ancestors a lot in the past few years, especially when you were making your alchemical flame spitters, and it's inspired you. A banner to rally behind, something that dwarfs will look to and fight all the harder with it at their back. A banner worthy of the hold of Kraka Drakk to be held aloft with pride by an equally worthy standard bearer. [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you.
    -- [X] 3 actions, Master Rune of Valaya, Rune of Grungni, Rune of Spellbreaking
    [X] Plan All In
    -[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
    -- [X] Release them: Your bumbling charges are now of an age where they can begin the journeyman's trial. It will be perilous, but considering the state of things right now, its unlike they'll leave the immediate area or the hold for a while yet. [Cost: 2 apprentice actions permanently] Action cost will switch to Snerra
    -[X] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
    -[X] [Simple] The Underway: King Otrek does not mince words, he wants the connection to the Underway ready as soon as possible. The number of monsters that are appearing have not only forced the throng into ever increasing levels of conflict, but slowed overland travel and trade to a near standstill. The north is effectively being cut off from the rest of the Karaz Ankor inch by inch. He is calling any aid a dwarf can provide in excavating the connection south. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 17 out of (25+ 15[Delayed South]) =40 Progress. 5 progress a turn regardless of input.
    -- [X] Four Snorri actions, two apprentice
    [X] 4 actions, 1 Apprentice action
    [X] Plan All in Tunnel
    -[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
    --[X] Hold them
    -[X] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
    -[X] [Simple] The Underway
    --[X] 4 Actions + 2 apprentice actions
    [X] Plan Underway: Mostly All In
    -[X] Teach your apprentices
    -- [X] Release them
    -[X] [Simple] The Underway: 4 Snorri actions, 1 Apprentice action
    -[X] [Simple] Apprentice work: 1 Apprentice action
    [X] The Rune Metal Pt. 4: You've made Adamant, a form of Gromril harder and stronger than any you've ever seen. The metal abhors magic, even that of Runes to some extent[Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal will proc. 3 actions
 
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We sadly don't have a simple Rune version of the Master Rune of Dismay.

That is unfortunate. It wouldn't be something you'd wanna chuck on a super healing banner anyway, but an army healing banner would be perfect for it. The weight of an Ancestor God weighing an enemy down while the MR of Valaya and Rune of Fortitude buff up the Dwarven Throng with healing.
 
We sadly don't have a simple Rune version of the Master Rune of Dismay.
Hmm, let me check real quick... Ah. Actually, there is just a Rune of Dismay, in the tabletop. So since the Rune of Dismay is a normal rune, we must have it.

In other words, us having the Master Rune of Dismay is a special case. We don't lack the Rune of Dismay; we just know how to make a Master Rune of it! :)
 
@BungieONI

I saw that you have approval voting for the broken plan. Any reason for that?

Only need one more vote to fix the problem.
Just to make sure that Soulcake saw what our intent was, I've removed it since.

Hmm, let me check real quick... Ah. Actually, there is just a Rune of Dismay, in the tabletop. So since the Rune of Dismay is a normal rune, we must have it.

In other words, us having the Master Rune of Dismay is a special case. We don't lack the Rune of Dismay; we just know how to make a Master Rune of it! :)
Oh really? Neat!
 
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