RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Slap it on a banner then. For the golem itself all in on raw durability and power instead.
Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of Stone and Rune of Grungni for Awaken O Dwarf Of Metal?

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If you're wanting to become some sort of golemancer/geokinetic, it'd probably be better on a Talisman.

 

[Alratan]

Well its basically a case of in my mind: What is a Golem/Gronti for? Being a great big nigh-unbreakable and tireless guardian that squishes gribblies.

It being sapient both does and doesn't help such endeavors. It helps because its more intelligent, and can make more detailed judgments as well as tactics but on the other hand its really liable to take up Rune space which might be used to make it more tough and more killy. Even if the rune space taken up isn't on the golem itself, but instead its equipment. Its orthogonal is my thought, and we can get stuff like more skillful fighting with the Rune of Brotherhood on a helmet or talisman if we wanted. Or putting a combo of Rune of Parrying (supernatural parrying skill), Rune of Striking (Weapon moves/guides you to strike vulnuerable points), Rune of Speed (Go really fast), on a weapon it uses.

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Making golem power armour or a golem mech would seem to achieve the same ends in a better way. The dwarf can provide the skill and the sapience, not need to lean on Runes for that. If golem armour is possible of course, but that might be a 'simple' modification of the master rune that doesn't require any extra runes dedicated to it.

It would also act as a nice proof of concept.

 

[AQShedim]

Could we give the apprentices one of the Journal locations as a going away gift? Something they can take with them that isn't gear.

 

[veekie]

If you're wanting to become some sort of golemancer/geokinetic, it'd probably be better on a Talisman.

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Naw, just the aspect of "Awaken" "This is Dwarf" and "This is also Dwarf"

 

[ContemplateLife]

Definitely thinking of putting it on a golem. We can create a Guardian of the Dawi that will never falter, never cease and endure till the world's end. That sounds pretty cool on a golem.

Plus IMO a golem represents the greatest concentration of runecraft we are capable of with the golem itself stacked with a talisman, weapon, armour and potentially a banner.

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Honestly, we should figure out what people want to use the Greedy One's heart for. There's talk about using it to build a golem, using it for a healing effect on a banner, and mentions of a few other misc things such as personal armor. Personally I favor using it in a banner for all that the golem idea sounds cool.

Edit: mostly just want to know if the golem project has popular support.

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First, I'm all for putting the heart into the Golem, and this is just me theorizing here, but obviously, if we do go Golem, it will be a kick ass Golem, with Armour and weapons etc, but I've bee' thinking about the link between the Greedy Troll and its progeny, as exemplified by this chapter. I wonder what would happen if we used runes of brotherhood on the golems and gave them lesser troll hearts, would they get a coordination or power boost from that? Something more esoteric maybe? I just think that would be cool and am throwing this theory out there for the more learned participants in the thread. But in summary, I Heavily am in favor of goleming the heart.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Anyways, so long as we put at least everything we have into the Underway ONCE, it will be done next turn. 4 Actions will get 12, 1 (or 2 if we let the elder apprentices go) apprentice actions 13-14,+5 = 18-19. Putting us at 35-36, allowing the Hold to finish on their own just in time.

Might not be enough time to make the Banner for the campaign, but we might be able to send it along after.

If no banner we'll at least we able to get some serious research done.

@soulcake can you tell us/remind about how overwork on designing something to be made works, if it can lead to the construction ahead of time?

 

[Red Bovine]

Actually don't mind going all in the tunnel for this turn since it will be able to be finished without us next turn. As for the heart as other people mentioned think that the best use of the heart would be a Golem since that would actually be pretty damn helpful to the Hold itself.

A major reason for this is due to the sheer fact that it's outright been confirmed that we would be able to add Runic equipment to it to get around the rune limit since they would technically be created separately from the Golem itself. Which means we can give it equipment that would seriously boost it's movement letting it be able to move around the battlefield and around the hold pretty easily.

Not to mention that if we finish the metal rune research next turn we would be able produce adamant on large numbers. Which means that we may be able to create a golem out of Adamant making it extremely hard to destroy and even immune to magic that can then be given even more equipment including runic equipment that can boost mobility.

 

[jjffjhjf]

I kinda wonder if we could create a kind of rune-based power armor...

 

[UlseDovThur]

So I think it kind of goes without saying but I still feel the need to just point it out. Whatever we use the Greedy Heart to create we need to wait until we've exhausted all possible options in finding the best possible materials for it. Whatever we make it's going to last until the apocalypse and as such must be made with the best possible materials we can gather and using those materials to their fullest extent.

Which means we need to finish doing all of the Odd Places to see what resources they have then reasearching those materials if they need it like the Silver Wuroth trees and the Fire Stones.

Whatever we make with the Heart we have a long way to go before we actually start building it.

Also I am now for making the Heart the core of a Golem. I am also curious if we can somehow harness the Hearts regenerative property so as to have the Golem capable of healing itself.

Maybe instead of creating the Golem out of metal we make it out of Silver Wuroth so that the Golem itself is made from a biological material and can thus grow and heal itself? We're already talking about clading it in Runic Adamant gear so maybe instead of focusing on making it unbreakable we focus on it being able to get back up after being damaged.

 

[masterofmadness]

[] Plan Not all in on underway

[] Odd Places 3/10: Look on Master Yorri's map and try and discover one of his marked locations. The locations will certainly be odd, but whether they'll be useful will remain to be seen.[Cost: 1 action] Roll for usefulness.
- [] 1 Action
[] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
- [] Hold them: They aren't ready yet, a brew that needs just a bit more time to age, a bar of metal not quite the right shade of plum. You retain their services, though technically you could hold them here for eternity, it would not look good to do so past their second century. [Cost: Delayed Journeyman's trial]
[] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
[] [Simple] The Underway: King Otrek does not mince words, he wants the connection to the Underway ready as soon as possible. The number of monsters that are appearing have not only forced the throng into ever increasing levels of conflict, but slowed overland travel and trade to a near standstill. The north is effectively being cut off from the rest of the Karaz Ankor inch by inch. He is calling any aid a dwarf can provide in excavating the connection south.
[Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions]
- [] 3 Actions, 2 Apprentice Actions

Mostly for the sack of other option ebing available I'm going to post an alternate plan. I kind of want to keep the Apprentices around till the Underway is done and keep exploring before the demon incursion but I understand why people might disagree.

Going to have to step away for a bit after posting this. brb.

 

[tri2]

recommend
all in on tunnel
then all in on yorri places, be sure nothing important is out there for chaos to grab
keep apprentices for a bit longer see if things get worse or not
better to train them a bit longer so they can be prepared for a more dangerous journeyman time

 

[BungieONI]

Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of Stone and Rune of Grungni for Awaken O Dwarf Of Metal?

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My question is what is the point of that because... the only one of those that increases durability is Rune of Stone. Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of Fortitude and Rune of Might creates something that is absurdly strong and tough. Much like a troll, so there's thematic resonance with the heart.

Like making a sapient golem is cool. But we can't do it intentionally because we outright don't know how, so its going to be a guess. And doing that on a T5 masterpiece meant to make best use of the Heart has me going "Hmm. Not sure if its worth it to experiment that much."

The rune of fortitude also has fluff indicating that armor inscribed with it might become sapient so, its like knock out two birds with one stone. Tough and hey maybe in a thousand years it will be sapient.

Also odds are good that they're going to spend their independent effort on the Underway anyways.

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Yup.

Making golem power armour or a golem mech would seem to achieve the same ends in a better way. The dwarf can provide the skill and the sapience, not need to lean on Runes for that. If golem armour is possible of course, but that might be a 'simple' modification of the master rune that doesn't require any extra runes dedicated to it.

It would also act as a nice proof of concept.

Click to shrink...

We can just have the golem be a mount? That's a thing that happens and requires no modification of anything at all, except the golem to have wide enough shoulders to be a good standing platform. A lot of Golems in lore are described as being actively controlled by a Runelord as a mount.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

To be honest, I'm not sure we'd need a rune to tame this griffin (Greedy Griffin?), it seems to solely eat greedy troll, and we have both an infinite supply of them that keep trying to come kill us, and we're like, one of the foremost troll-meat chefs in the empire.

I want to sink an action into building a griffon feeder in our back yard, can't be that hard to pile up a mountain of troll bodies artfully.

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Don't underestimate the intelligence of a Griffin. Kill it for rare ingredients but don't expect to have the time or inclination to make a pet out of it.

 

[Alratan]

We can just have the golem be a mount? That's a thing that happens and requires no modification of anything at all, except the golem to have wide enough shoulders to be a good standing platform. A lot of Golems in lore are described as being actively controlled by a Runelord as a mount.

Click to shrink...

That's probably much less useful, as the bulk of the golem does almost nothing to shield the rider, and it doesn't allow the golem's strength to be directly puppeted by the wielder's skill. Actively controlling the golem when not wearing it would also leave the exposed runelord distracted by trying to do two things at once.

Standing on top of a golem also seems to be asking to be shot or blasted off it.

 

[tri2]

[] Plan All in Tunnel
-[] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
--[ ] Hold them
-[] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
-[ ] [Simple] The Underway
--[] 4 Actions + 2 apprentice actions

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I think if we're making a golem, or automaton of any kind it's structural durability should come from the material it's made out of, so yes I don't think we should make a golem until we've got an Adamant rune process ready to make ludicrous amounts of the stuff or we work out how to make "True Gromril"

 

[BungieONI]

That's much less useful, as the bulk of the golem does almost nothing to shield the rider, and it doesn't allow the golem's strength to be directly puppeted by the wielder's skill. Actively controlling the golem when not wearing it would also leave the exposed runelord distracted by trying to do two things at once.

Standing on top of a golem also seems to be asking to be shot or blasted off it.

Click to shrink...

Runes, equipment on the golem, and sheer height might beg to differ. Especially with a Runelords own equipment in the mix.

Generally I see a Runic armor of a Golem/power armor as taking more time to be up to snuff with a Golem, given the modifications to runes and its body structure likely necessary. It would probably work, but I'm personally not all that interested in it.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

you know, we could just do a single action into the Underway this turn, put the other 3 on research. Then we go all in next turn and get some overflow in finishing it. As it's impossible to finish it in one turn, might as well. It'll be more dramatic to make a big overfinish than come close and put a bit of effort in to get over the finish line.

We could do Wutroth, make 5 action progress on Rune Metal...

 

[Red Bovine]

So I think it kind of goes without saying but I still feel the need to just point it out. Whatever we use the Greedy Heart to create we need to wait until we've exhausted all possible options in finding the best possible materials for it. Whatever we make it's going to last until the apocalypse and as such must be made with the best possible materials we can gather and using those materials to their fullest extent.

Which means we need to finish doing all of the Odd Places to see what resources they have then reasearching those materials if they need it like the Silver Wuroth trees and the Fire Stones.

Whatever we make with the Heart we have a long way to go before we actually start building it.

Also I am now for making the Heart the core of a Golem. I am also curious if we can somehow harness the Hearts regenerative property so as to have the Golem capable of healing itself.

Maybe instead of creating the Golem out of metal we make it out of Silver Wuroth so that the Golem itself is made from a biological material and can thus grow and heal itself? We're already talking about clading it in Runic Adamant gear so maybe instead of focusing on making it unbreakable we focus on it being able to get back up after being damaged.

Click to shrink...

Oh god please no. The problem with this line of thinking is along the line of the 'Too awesome to use' tropes that you run into in video games where players can go the entire game not using super rare items they gained even in situations where it would have been insanely helpful for them. That includes situations like the end game because they are thinking 'what if something else happens?' only for the game to have been beaten without using said items.

Though honestly we already have great materials to make stuff out of.

 

[Harried]

Don't underestimate the intelligence of a Griffin. Kill it for rare ingredients but don't expect to have the time or inclination to make a pet out of it.

Click to shrink...

That seems unnecessarily bloodthirsty, it being smart enough to quash it's instinctive desire for our shinies is a good sign for domestication prospects, not a bad one.

Like, ideally it's smart enough to be interested in a mutually beneficial partnership, we feed it greedy troll, and can outfit it with the shiniest of shinies, and it fights with us against the demons and trolls, and maybe allows us to ride it into battle occasionally.

Even if it's intervention here was purely to eat more greedy trolls, repaying it by hunting it down, killing it and using it's brain to make an axe seems like a dawi zharr option to take.

 

[BungieONI]

I think if we're making a golem, or automaton of any kind it's structural durability should come from the material it's made out of, so yes I don't think we should make a golem until we've got an Adamant rune process ready to make ludicrous amounts of the stuff or we work out how to make "True Gromril"

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Yeah, that's why I suggested waiting until we can plate the thing in Adamant.

Given how hard it is to make, making a golem out of Adamant entirely will likely take too long to be as practical as just plating something carved out from the deep stone in a mountain's heart. Making a Golem out of Pure Gromril and then plating it in Adamant is more reasonable than making the golem entirely out of Adamant, but is still a large step up in time it will take to do it.

 

[Alratan]

Runes, equipment on the golem, and sheer height might beg to differ. Especially with a Runelords own equipment in the mix.

Generally I see a Runic armor of a Golem/power armor as taking more time to be up to snuff with a Golem, given the modifications to runes and its body structure likely necessary. It would probably work, but I'm personally not all that interested in it.

Click to shrink...

Chaos has access to plenty of giant gribblies, and standing on top of a golem just makes you stick out more. I think super-heavy/golem armour would be worth it on its own. It should make our dwarves a lot more survivable, particularly high value targets. If Snorri invents this variant it's not just for one super-golem, it's for everyone.

Golem armour also has the benefit that it should require substantially less material, as it's hollow, making an adamant golem armour much more plausible than a adamant golem.

 

[UlseDovThur]

Oh god please no. The problem with this line of thinking is along the line of the 'Too awesome to use' tropes that you run into in video games where players can go the entire game not using super rare items they gained even in situations where it would have been insanely helpful for them. That includes situations like the end game because they are thinking 'what if something else happens?' only for the game to have been beaten without using said items.

Though honestly we already have great materials to make stuff out of.

Click to shrink...

The difference here is that we know how many places we have to look for stuff. Once we finish Odd Places the only way we'll probably find new and rare resources is by random event rolls.

Once we finish Odd Places and reasearched the materials we find there I'm fine with starting to build the thing as we'll know what we have to work with. I'm not waiting around on "maybe this turn the random event roll will give us something else" or something silly like that.

I just want to make sure we do all of the stuff in front of us so that later we don't go "ah, if we had just waited a bit we could have used this stuff in the Golem". That kind of situation always leads to a mountain of salt.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Take the rune of Valaya you were inscribing now. Once complete, the Rune, along with a host of other effects, would enhance things, other Runes included, that encompassed the kind of themes and topics one associated with Valaya herself. Healing brews grew tastier, hearths grew warmer, walls felt sturdier, Runes of warding grew stronger, Runes of Healing more potent the list went on and on.

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Valaya's Blessed Gaze
Master Rune of Valaya, Rune of Healing (Greedy One Heart), Rune of Fortitude

you know, we could just do a single action into the Underway this turn, put the other 3 on research. Then we go all in next turn and get some overflow in finishing it. As it's impossible to finish it in one turn, might as well. It'll be more dramatic to make a big overfinish than come close and put a bit of effort in to get over the finish line.

We could do Wutroth, make 5 action progress on Rune Metal...

Click to shrink...

By the above reasoning...

[] Plan Take Your Mark...
-[ ] [Simple] The Underway
-- [] 1 Action + 1 apprentice actions
-[ ] The Rune Metal Pt. 4: You've made Adamant, a form of Gromril harder and stronger than any you've ever seen. The metal abhors magic, even that of Runes to some extent[Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal will proc.
-- [] 3 actions

[] Plan Take Your Markv2...
-[ ] [Simple] The Underway
-- [] 1 Action + 1 apprentice actions
-[ ] The Movement of things: The Rune of Waking or Animation as some would call it is a rare rune. How Master Yorri knows both the regular and Master Rune could be explained by either a harrowing adventure full of terror, beasties and treasure or by something as mundane as asking a friend, you could never be sure with the man. Still, this was a rune that, to your frustration, you haven't had much chance to tinker with. Maybe just a peak? [Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
-- [] 3 actions

 

[BungieONI]

Chaos has access to plenty of giant gribblies, and standing on top of a golem just makes you stick out more. I think super-heavy/golem armour would be worth it on its own. It should make our dwarves a lot more survivable, particularly high value targets. If Snorri invents this variant it's not just for one super-golem, it's for everyone.

Golem armour also has the benefit that it should require substantially less material, as it's hollow, making an adamant golem armour much more plausible than a adamant golem.

Click to shrink...

So is a golem? Making a T5 masterpiece golem is an inspiration for other Runesmiths, and has an advantage over armor. Don't need to put dwarfs in it and risk their lives if we don't want to.

They both have wide benefits from a hold, so framing your suggestion as helping the hold over the golem doesn't hold a lot of weight. Snorri is a runelord, basically anything he does except doing nothing and/or trying to do something insane will help the Hold because it will be creating some Runic masterwork.

Material wise you're right, it would require less, but that sort of material can also just go on a golem to clad it. And a golem requires less fiddling around with runes so it can be made sooner.

E: And even more importantly, we don't need to spend time teaching other people how to make golem-armor so that it can help everyone. Runesmiths already know how to make Golems. If we went with Golem-armor, Snorri would be the only guy who could make it for quite a while.